Board 8 > Obama signs into law the NDAA allowing indefinite detention of citizens

(+) Yeah! (+)

It's possible the next president pushes to remove them.

Or it's possible that the next president makes them permanent, like Obama did with the Patriot Act.

Unless you're trying to imply that Ron Paul will be the next president or something.

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More must know.

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America is dead. We can't change anything at the ballot box anymore.

This is now a problem that can only be fixed with bloodshed.

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Obama governing from the Center-Right again? Yay.

Ron Paul is right on so many things but he's so bat**** insane on so many others. He's also homophobic, racist and from the sounds of it, quite the ahole.

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From: GaryOak151 | #055
Obama governing from the Center-Right again? Yay.

Ron Paul is right on so many things but he's so bat**** insane on so many others. He's also homophobic, racist and from the sounds of it, quite the ahole.

This is a complete and total lie. Enjoy falling victim to media propaganda designed to keep the statists in control of your life.

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remember when this guy won the Nobel Peace Prize? XFD

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Ulti right as usual. Sometimes I feel very good about not being American, this is one of those.

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in short, ed, no

in long, ed, the link to the Library of Congress text of the bill you posted isn't working for me

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'time to bail', too bad i've still got a few years of college!

what the hell does "more than seven days of food" mean anyways? I'm pretty sure an average first world person's consumption in a day or two can be considered "seven days of food"

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UltimaterializerX posted...
From: GaryOak151 | #055
Obama governing from the Center-Right again? Yay.

Ron Paul is right on so many things but he's so bat**** insane on so many others. He's also homophobic, racist and from the sounds of it, quite the a******.
You mean that 25 year-old newsletter that wasn't even written by him?

I have no idea why the media tried jumping all over that story.

So he just hires bigots and ignores what they're writing in his name?

Which do you prefer; Paul being a bigot or an incompetent administrator?

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dethfdddddh posted...
So he just hires bigots and ignores what they're writing in his name?

Which do you prefer; Paul being a bigot or an incompetent administrator?

Either way his one-time bigotry or incompetence 25 years ago is no less of what's currently in the white house, or the current GOP frontrunner.
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Ron Paul is absolutely homophobic, one of my gay friends who's married (actually my only gay married friend) they met him, and he was openly disgusted when they said they were gay.

But anyways, there are no good candidates.

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god I need to ****ing move to Canada already

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Funny how conservatives suddenly care about human rights for terrorists all of a sudden.

Where were you guys during the Bush administration?

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From: GaryOak151 | #055
Ron Paul is right on so many things but he's so bat**** insane on so many others. He's also homophobic, racist and from the sounds of it, quite the ahole.

Yeah, making sense does seem like a "bat**** insane" thing to politicians

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Eliminating the Fed and returning to the gold standard does not "make sense". Even with a cursory knowledge of economics, you'll see that this will only f*** up the economy worse than it already is.

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i can't support ron paul's ideal of loosening safety regulations on businesses. some things need regulation and government intervention.

the free market isn't going to save the millions that will die from tainted medicine/products that adversely affects people's health -- stuff like CFCs or lead paint aren't exactly safe. stuff that causes cancer can go undetected for decades.

i don't exactly like POLITICS so I could be wrong about his stance on this.

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maybe, lol

The free market can't really be trusted for anything, but that's a debate for a different day.

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@ Ed Bellis: what you actually want to look at are ss. 1021-1022 (I would assume this is what Ulti was referring to).
Here's the link to the relevant part of the bill (just scroll down to ss. 1021-1022): http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c112:7:./temp/~c112DvpSUv:e837367.

Anyway, I don't really see the huge problem with this act. Well, correction: I do see a major, major problem with the way people captured abroad and suspected of terrorism can just be arbitrarily and indefinitely detained (which is completely unacceptable), but that's nothing new, sadly. If we break the thing down, we have:

1021(a): 'Covered persons' can be detained by the military 'under the laws of war'
1021(b): Covered persons = people who have committed acts of terrorism
1021(c): 'Under laws of war' may include detention until the end of the relevant conflict (protip: 'war on terrorism' won't end any time soon, so that really means indefinite detention), trial by an alternative tribunal, transfer to another country.

In short, once a 'terrorist' is captured, they can be detained indefinitely, moved around, tried anywhere, etc. One has to wonder how they determine someone to be a terrorist without a proper trial first (my guess is they'd be acting on mere suspicion, hence arbitrariness and detention at the mere whim of the government, which is *absolutely not* a good thing. But that's nothing new. Read on.).

BUT
1021(d) and (e): This act doesn't modify any other law or authorities that would otherwise apply; this act doesn't limit or expand presidential powers.

Basically, nothing changes. You may be thinking "Wait, but that's just words", but that's not exactly the case. Courts can use these words to 'ignore' the Act, if they feel they can protect people better that way. If some other law already exists (aka the Constitution), if some unwritten principle already exists (the latter is very important too) regarding indefinite detention, then courts can apply it to protect people. Now, they may not want to apply these principles - but that would've been a problem with or without the NDAA. So yeah, this act doesn't really change anything.

Then we've got 1022...

1022(a): Military detention for suspected terrorists is mandatory. This is just stupid, IMO, as according to this, even if the administration *wants* to hold these guys in civilian detention, they can't. Luckily for most of you, though...
1022(b): This can't apply to American citizens or legal residents.

From my understanding, Obama pushed for ss. 1021(d) and (e), which effectively ensures that the NDAA doesn't change the current situation. Of course, the current situation is ludicrous, rights are infringed left and right, etc., but Obama prevented (or has tried to - we'll see how it turns out) it from getting worse, so kudos to him. Everyone that was already protected will still be protected; everyone that wasn't.... well.... aren't. If you read Obama's commentaries carefully, you can see that he feels the same thing - some sections of the Act are unnecessary in that they don't really change anything, but he signed it anyway to 'protect veteran's families' (aka gain/not lose votes). Might be he signed it to make reelection easier and gain some votes with veteran's families, but he did try to make sure that the most ludicrous provisions were struck out or limited in such a way that they didn't change anything.

Anyway, that's what I got from reading this, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

TL;DR version: The act doesn't change a thing. The current situation stays as is - rights are routinely infringed in an unjustifiable manner, yes, but that was already the case.

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From: Solfadore | #074
1022(b): This can't apply to American citizens or legal residents.

Doesn't say it can't, just that it's not mandatory. Though there was a later amendment that says it doesn't apply to citizens... unless Congress says it does.

EDIT: Looks like my memory was wrong; it wasn't passed.

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OmarsComin posted...
If you guys vote for me for president I will fix everything.

There are a lot of people who actually would vote for you based on your not being Obama.

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Ulti, your contest analyses have given me hours of entertainment, but goddamn are your political views off-base.

The gold standard is inherently flawed. Gold's value is every bit as made up as fiat currency, except with gold you have no control over your monetary policy.

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except with gold you have no control over your monetary policy.

xfd

With Gold, the market has the control over monetary policy. With fiat currency, Ben Bernanke does.

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In 2012 alone, the dollar is on track to devalue by 40%.

How much gold/other currencies/dollar short funds/etc. have you bought? If you think it's so certain that the dollar will devalue by that much in 2012 I'd expect a lot.

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The gold standard is inherently flawed. Gold's value is every bit as made up as fiat currency, except with gold you have no control over your monetary policy.

Monetary policy is the problem then. I mean, the gold standard worked for thousands of years, so I wouldn't call it inherently flawed. Maybe slightly inferior (in that we might not to reach quite as good a world as we theoretically can with credit based currency) at best.

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Ron Paul: The Man You Should Vote For (if you think the federal government should control nothing but abortion rights and the military that would never be used outside of our country)

i can make wildly inaccurate statements too

SantaRPG posted...
Didn't the supreme court already rule that you can't detain american citizens without cause and all that? So even if this law did have "hey guys we're going to criminally imprison you with the military and also you can't have abortions anymore and black people need to go into separate schools now" it wouldn't mean anything because supreme court trumps all

This is one of the things that Ron Paul wants to take care of. Take all the power away from the supreme court because they're too powerful or some BS like that. That, of course, would set a horrible precedent (or further push one, because people are already starting to vote out judges in my state simply because they made a decision that they didn't like).

Didn't the supreme court already rule that you can't detain american citizens without cause and all that? So even if this law did have "hey guys we're going to criminally imprison you with the military and also you can't have abortions anymore and black people need to go into separate schools now" it wouldn't mean anything because supreme court trumps all

It's up to lower courts to interpret and apply what the Supreme Court says. With something like this, it could very well take years before it gets back up to the Supreme Court and they strike it down. There are many many procedural hurdles.

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SmartMuffin posted...
With Gold, the market has the control over monetary policy.

You say that like it's a good thing.

Look at the market's role in the subprime mortgage crisis. You want that controlling monetary policy?

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We have plenty of room in Canada for some Americans. You guys can populate Northern Ontario.

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Look at the market's role in the subprime mortgage crisis. You want that controlling monetary policy?

Yes. The market also brought us the 1990s, the 1980s, the 1960s, 1950s, 1920s, etc. I sure want all those good times.

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From: UltimaterializerX | #017
It's okay to admit you made a mistake in 2008. I certainly did.

not voting for John McCain wasn't a mistake.

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Hell, the mere thought of Palin taking over if anything happened to McCain should leave any sane person *begging* for Obama

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Look at the market's role in the subprime mortgage crisis. You want that controlling monetary policy?

...we can't even look at the feds role. audit or bust bro

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XFD Ulti seriously believe ron paul didn't write the newsletters

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Yes. The market also brought us the 1990s, the 1980s, the 1960s, 1950s, 1920s, etc. I sure want all those good times.

The only one of these that you can call the "unregulated market" sanely was the 20's. We all know how that turned out, and the presidents that oversaw it are regarded as two of the worst in the 20th century by virtually all scholars of history and economics.

Yeah I don't really want more of that.

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If we're not going to give the free market credit where it is due, we may as well blame the whole subprime crisis on excessive government regulation while we're at it.

Also, this whole perspective is wrong. Growth requires up and down periods. If you eliminate down periods, you must pay the price- eliminating up periods too. Macroeconomists thought they had succeeded in sharply reducing the shock of down periods over the period of roughly 1980-2007, but 2008 proved they had not done so.

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If we're not going to give the free market credit where it is due

If I'm not mistaken, Ron Paul has said that we've never seen how a completely unregulated market works because it's never existed. Do you disagree with him?

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