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Board 8 > Obama signs into law the NDAA allowing indefinite detention of citizens

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Anagram
12/31/11 5:09:00 PM
#1:


Without trial, but I couldn't fit it into the topic title.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/12/obama-signs-defense-reauthorization-bill.php

And he does it on New Year's Eve, too! Classy.

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SmartMuffin
12/31/11 5:10:00 PM
#2:




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DeathChicken
12/31/11 5:11:00 PM
#3:


As usual, it's a bill consisting of lots of important funding stuff he couldn't possibly decline, along with something shady tacked on, that he also can't decline because he doesn't have line item and it all comes in a lump

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CherryCokes
12/31/11 5:11:00 PM
#4:


you know they changed the law, right?

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SmartMuffin
12/31/11 5:12:00 PM
#5:


From: DeathChicken | #003
As usual, it's a bill consisting of lots of important funding stuff he couldn't possibly decline, along with something shady tacked on, that he also can't decline because he doesn't have line item and it all comes in a lump


Wrong. He specifically asked for and demanded these powers. He threatened to veto it until they were put in, at which point he agreed to sign it.

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foolm0ron
12/31/11 5:12:00 PM
#6:


"yeah trust us we're not gonna detain any Americans, but we are still gonna take the power to do so"

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CherryCokes
12/31/11 5:13:00 PM
#7:


http://news.yahoo.com/obama-signs-defense-bill-despite-reservations-200818531.html

The administration also pushed Congress to change a provision that would have denied U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism the right to trial and could have subjected them to indefinite detention. Lawmakers eventually dropped the military custody requirement for U.S. citizens or lawful U.S. residents.

"My administration will not authorize the indefinite military detention without trial of American citizens," Obama said in the signing statement. "Indeed, I believe that doing so would break with our most important traditions and values as a nation."

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SmartMuffin
12/31/11 5:15:00 PM
#8:


From: CherryCokes | #007
http://news.yahoo.com/obama-signs-defense-bill-despite-reservations-200818531.html

The administration also pushed Congress to change a provision that would have denied U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism the right to trial and could have subjected them to indefinite detention. Lawmakers eventually dropped the military custody requirement for U.S. citizens or lawful U.S. residents.

"My administration will not authorize the indefinite military detention without trial of American citizens," Obama said in the signing statement. "Indeed, I believe that doing so would break with our most important traditions and values as a nation."


You're reading this wrong. The bill still includes those powers, he just promises that he won't use them in an evil way. Read the whole article, dude!

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Biolizard28
12/31/11 5:16:00 PM
#9:


Come on, man, if the president abused these powers, there'd be a massive armed uprisi- where are my guns?

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KingButz
12/31/11 5:25:00 PM
#10:


From: CherryCokes | #004
you know they changed the law, right?


Yeah, they did. Before it gave congress the power to authorize indefinite military detention. Obama threatened to veto it unless they gave the executive that same power.

And just because he said he won't use it doesn't mean the next president can't/won't.

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paperwarior
12/31/11 5:30:00 PM
#11:


Meanwhile, sanctions on Iran! This'll end well!

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SmartMuffin
12/31/11 5:34:00 PM
#12:


And just because he said he won't use it doesn't mean the next president can't/won't.

And that's IF you're foolish enough to believe that the guy isn't just outright lying about not intending to use it. But don't worry, if he ever "has" to use it, I'm sure he'll have "reservations" about it!

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foolm0ron
12/31/11 5:36:00 PM
#13:


Soon it won't just be Indians with the "reservations"

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TomNook7
12/31/11 5:44:00 PM
#14:


We are so screwed.



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Anagram
12/31/11 5:56:00 PM
#15:


My favorite part is that he signed it on New Year's Eve.

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SmartMuffin
12/31/11 5:59:00 PM
#16:


From: TomNook7 | #014
We are so screwed.


xfd @ all the Lincoln quotes

In terms of safeguarding the Constitution, Lincoln was one of the worst presidents of all time.

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#17
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neonreap
12/31/11 6:04:00 PM
#18:


Anagram posted...
My favorite part is that he signed it on New Year's Eve.

why is this a big deal to you

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Sceptilesolarbeam
12/31/11 6:05:00 PM
#19:


From: UltimaterializerX | #017
Obama is a joke, but not as big a joke as people who outright deny his administration demanded language be removed that would have protected US citizens from being unlawfully arrested and tortured.

It's okay to admit you made a mistake in 2008. I certainly did.


And neither of those are as big a joke as the people who can't read the quoted part earlier that says the exact opposite.

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SmartMuffin
12/31/11 6:06:00 PM
#20:


From: Sceptilesolarbeam | #019
And neither of those are as big a joke as the people who can't read the quoted part earlier that says the exact opposite.


That's NOT what it says. Read more carefully.

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DeathChicken
12/31/11 6:07:00 PM
#21:


You say that like McCain wouldn't have done the same damn thing. Face it, they're all crooked

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Altimadark
12/31/11 6:08:00 PM
#22:


I'm a bit relieved that nobody here is saying that this is a good thing, at any rate.

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Sceptilesolarbeam
12/31/11 6:09:00 PM
#23:


From: SmartMuffin | #020
That's NOT what it says. Read more carefully.


That IS what it says. You read it more carefully first.

From: CherryCokes | #007

The administration also pushed Congress to change a provision that would have denied U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism the right to trial and could have subjected them to indefinite detention.


The administration pushed to change a provision that denied the right to trial and subjected them to indefinite duration.

Plain as day.

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Wanglicious
12/31/11 6:10:00 PM
#24:


honestly the only one i can see who WOULDN'T do this is ron paul.
but he's also crazy. less crazy than like every other person running save for obama and romney, but still.

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#25
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DeathChicken
12/31/11 6:11:00 PM
#26:


Romney's just a giant sleazeball that makes anything Obama may be up to look like chump change. Anyone who votes for him deserves everything they'll get if he wins

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#27
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Sceptilesolarbeam
12/31/11 6:12:00 PM
#28:


From: UltimaterializerX | #025
You are literally delusional. The Obama administration demanded language be removed that would have protected citizens from unlawful arrest. He lied about his threat to veto the bill. Period.

You can pretend this isn't fact all you want, but that doesn't make it so. The bill declares all of America a "battleground", and anyone suspected of being a terrorist can be arrested and tortured with no trial or jury. Period.


You are literally incapable of using the word 'literal' correctly. And also a poor reader.

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SmartMuffin
12/31/11 6:12:00 PM
#29:


From: Wanglicious | #024
honestly the only one i can see who WOULDN'T do this is ron paul.
but he's also crazy. less crazy than like every other person running save for obama and romney, but still.


ITT: Freedom is crazy.

Enjoy your "sane" world where the government can kill whoever it wants for whatever reason it wants without explanation.

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SmartMuffin
12/31/11 6:14:00 PM
#30:


Fun fact: If you're on the opposite side of the argument as myself AND Ulti, you're almost certainly wrong.

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Sceptilesolarbeam
12/31/11 6:15:00 PM
#31:


I think B8 has only taught me to disrespect all extreme conservatives as a bunch of fact-allergic, paranoid lunatics.

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dethfdddddh
12/31/11 6:15:00 PM
#32:


SmartMuffin posted...
Fun fact: If you're on the opposite side of the argument as myself AND Ulti, you're almost certainly wrong.

ulti you're on smuffin's side how do you feel about this

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Ace_Killjoy
12/31/11 6:17:00 PM
#33:


Only a matter of time before Judge Dread becomes reality.

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UItimaterializer
12/31/11 6:19:00 PM
#34:


From: Sceptilesolarbeam | #028
You are literally incapable of using the word 'literal' correctly. And also a poor reader.


hahaha, wow

I've read the entire bill, just FYI. I love all the people trying to defend this crap as if everything I've said in this topic isn't a 100% certified fact. No wonder you're such trash at mafia and Chris regrets not hammering you on day 1 last game; you're incapable of reading correctly, if at all.

The bill absolutely 100% gives the government the power to kill, arrest and torture anyone they want, with no trial or jury and no explanation whatsoever. All they have to do is suspect someone of being a terrorist, whether they're right or wrong in the accusation. Try doing some research -- or hell, actually reading bills before you comment on them and make yourself look so thoroughly laughable -- before making yourself look so awful next time you try arguing with someone smarter and more well-read than you are.

Pretend it's not true all you want, but you would be wrong. Deny the torture and detaining provisions all you like, I'll just sit here laughing my ass off at people enabling this police state garbage.

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#35
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#36
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Sceptilesolarbeam
12/31/11 6:23:00 PM
#37:


From: UItimaterializer | #034
hahaha, wow

I've read the entire bill, just FYI. I love all the people trying to defend this crap as if everything I've said in this topic isn't a 100% certified fact. No wonder you're such trash at mafia and Chris regrets not hammering you on day 1 last game; you're incapable of reading correctly, if at all.

The bill absolutely 100% gives the government the power to kill, arrest and torture anyone they want, with no trial or jury and no explanation whatsoever. All they have to do is suspect someone of being a terrorist, whether they're right or wrong in the accusation. Try doing some research -- or hell, actually reading bills before you comment on them and make yourself look so thoroughly laughable -- before making yourself look so awful next time you try arguing with someone smarter and more well-read than you are.

Pretend it's not true all you want, but you would be wrong. Deny the torture and detaining provisions all you like, I'll just sit here laughing my ass off at people enabling this police state garbage.


Not the discussion, try again.


From: UltimaterializerX | #035
Board 8 -- Where the Constitution and reading a bill the president signs is "extreme".



Real life -- where people throw incessant hissy-fits over assumed abridgement of freedom that never pan out.

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Sceptilesolarbeam
12/31/11 6:23:00 PM
#38:


From: UltimaterializerX | #037
Yes it is. You haven't read the bill and you're trying to pretend what's actually in it doesn't exist.


Not the discussion, try again, lol.

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Ace_Killjoy
12/31/11 6:24:00 PM
#39:


Sceptilesolarbeam posted...
Not the discussion, try again, lol.

Amazing debating skills.

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#41
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TheKoolAidShoto
12/31/11 6:48:00 PM
#45:


LOL Obama
LOL Senate
LOL America

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#46
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Julian_Caesar
12/31/11 6:50:00 PM
#47:


It amazes me that people argue and complain about this so much. Guess what...we live in a country where every single law is created and voted upon AND executed by members of government without ANY REQUIRED CONSENT from the population itself. The only voice we have in government is to elect those officials as we best see fit. So what do you expect? A popular vote every time a controversial law is passed?

Also, ask yourself if this law is an acceptable price to pay for the benefit of nationalized healthcare. Because like it or not, both are the result of the same process: government expansion. The "loss of personal freedom" is the phrase we use when criticizing expansion; the "gain of government regulation" is what we say when supporting it. Nationalized healthcare is just as much a loss of personal freedom as this law, and this law is just as much a gain of government regulation as is nationalized healthcare. Whether it's right or wrong is up to you, but don't lose sight of the bigger picture.

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Anagram
12/31/11 6:50:00 PM
#48:


Ed Bellis posted...
My interpretation of Obama's statement there seems to be that he has concerns about the edits and his administration will do their best to "interpret" (ignore) them in a matter that lets them basically function they same as they've always done. He says in the first paragraph that he pretty much only signs it into law because of its provisions about service members and families and departments and such. Whether or not he does so is up for debate, but hey, there's the actual full statement.

Even if we pretend that Obama doesn't have a track record of lying, that just means his administration will ignore the matter, but it will still exist for the next administration to do with it what they want.

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#49
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SmartMuffin
12/31/11 6:56:00 PM
#50:


He says in the first paragraph that he pretty much only signs it into law because of its provisions about service members and families and departments and such.

Even if you believe that (note: you shouldn't), that's still incredibly pathetic and all-kinds of ****ed up. He could VERY easily say "I am not signing this bill until you take those things out" and encourage military members who have a problem with not being paid to contact their Congressmen.

But he didn't do that. Because he doesn't care about your rights. He sees you as a dispensable part of a collective, not as an individual who is entitled to liberty and freedom. He cares about his own political ambitions, and that is all.

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