Board 8 > I like how every FFXIII-2 review goes out of its way to bash FFXIII

(+) Yeah! (+)

Well, Paradigm shifts are a pretty huge menu thing, especially if you start using them at the pace that is needed for some of the harder fights. And there are other commands you choose from menus too... which buffs/debuffs to use, who/what type of healing to use (MT vs. ST, mostly), items, which enemy you want to target, etc.

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LeonhartFour posted...
Good news! FFXII only plays itself if you make it!


Well, if it had any decent gameplay to speak of, maybe people wouldn't be likely to have it play itself!

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12 was made to play itself anyway

like yeah you can control characters yourself but you'll end up choosing the same stuff they do because it's kind of simple, and the pace/layout of the menus lends itself towards the game playing itself anyway

I was always in control in FFXII, felt good!

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From: StealThisSheen | Posted: 1/28/2012 8:40:32 PM | #046
I like when my games don't play themselves.

From: StealThisSheen | Posted: 1/28/2012 8:42:06 PM | #049
TheRock1525 posted...
I'm with you in the sense that FF is a very menu driven series. I'm not with you in the sense that XIII is a very menu driven game. It's one of the least menu driven games in the series, and probably THE least in the mainline series.


Maybe if you chose "Auto" or whatever every time.

Otherwise it's just as menu driven as any other FF.

huh

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From: StealThisSheen | #052
From: LeonhartFour
Good news! FFXII only plays itself if you make it!


Well, if it had any decent gameplay to speak of, maybe people wouldn't be likely to have it play itself!

That's not the point! Making the game play itself is a player decision, not the default, permanent setting of the game! If you don't like the gameplay (not too keen on it myself), that's fine, but the game only plays itself if you set it up that way.

I'll be glad when Mass Effect 3 comes out so I can point at it and say, "SEE, here's a game that ACTUALLY plays itself!"

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GuessMyUserName posted...
From: StealThisSheen | Posted: 1/28/2012 8:40:32 PM | #046
I like when my games don't play themselves.
From: StealThisSheen | Posted: 1/28/2012 8:42:06 PM | #049
TheRock1525 posted...
I'm with you in the sense that FF is a very menu driven series. I'm not with you in the sense that XIII is a very menu driven game. It's one of the least menu driven games in the series, and probably THE least in the mainline series.


Maybe if you chose "Auto" or whatever every time.

Otherwise it's just as menu driven as any other FF.

huh


...There's no contradiction there, GMUN. I implied I both dislike FFXII for playing itself and dislike choosing "Auto" in FFXIII.

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but you have to choose "Auto" for XII to play itself

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GuessMyUserName posted...
but you have to choose "Auto" for XII to play itself


But the difference is that XII is literally made so that choosing "Auto" makes the exact same choices you would.

You can't beat XIII just choosing "Auto."

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FFXII is ideally played with you in control of the main character and your two teammates setup properly with Gambits. You don't need to go to either extreme (control every character vs. let it play itself). FFXII is full of options for the player to play how they want to, not any specific way.

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I think the knock on FF12 is that even if you play it instead of it playing itself, it's quite dull and straightforward. And thus you lose little from choosing to have it play itself, which is bad. I haven't played 12 enough to know how justified this criticism is.

With 13, although there's an auto- command (which is great for saving time when you know you're going to choose a straightforward command), you certainly can't just let it play itself (unless you grind a lot maybe, since it is an RPG after all), because that will get you killed so badly. You have to control your paradigms to react to and overcome what you see in battles.

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That's because XIII's AI lacks the player input of XII.

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XII sucks.

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NeoElfboy posted...
I think the knock on FF12 is that even if you play it instead of it playing itself, it's quite dull and straightforward. And thus you lose little from choosing to have it play itself, which is bad. I haven't played 12 enough to know how justified this criticism is.

With 13, although there's an auto- command (which is great for saving time when you know you're going to choose a straightforward command), you certainly can't just let it play itself (unless you grind a lot maybe, since it is an RPG after all), because that will get you killed so badly. You have to control your paradigms to react to and overcome what you see in battles.


This is basically what I'm getting at, though I was a little unfair to 12.

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From: StealThisSheen | Posted: 1/28/2012 8:47:50 PM | #060
You can't beat XIII just choosing "Auto."

... yes you can o_O

I mean sure you paradigm shift, but you're still selecting auto auto auto auto. Paradigm Shifts really aren't that involved, especially when the same strategy pretty much beats everything.

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GuessMyUserName posted...
... yes you can o_O

I mean sure you paradigm shift, but you're still selecting auto auto auto auto. Paradigm Shifts really aren't that involved, especially when the same strategy pretty much beats everything.



No. There are several fights where choosing "Auto" will just get you killed.

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FFXIII's Medic AI is pretty crappy, so I don't know if you could beat some bosses with just Auto because the Medic AI never prioritizes healing status effects.

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I tried this.

I left a fight on FFXIII and went to make a sandwich i came back to see myself dead.

I did the same on FFXII, I came back with a mark beaten down.

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The best parts of both XIII and XII are their post-games/sidequests. FFXIII's system, in particular, doesn't shine at all until you start dealing with the tougher enemies, I find, especially if you're the type to grind.

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I mean, hell. I tried to do this to coast through the game.

The minute you start running into those flying car... thing... enemies, you can't just "Auto" or you'll lose.

And that's pretty early.

But even pretending that you COULD just choose "Auto," Paradigm Shifts by default still make it more involving than 12's Auto.

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... I've beaten the game pretty much entirely using Auto. I may have played around with trying to select my options in the beginning, but eventually I just gave into the auto and had no problem at all.

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I got about 60% of the way through 13 by just auto-ing everything

wouldn't know past that because I gave up on playing the game somewhere around there

The Velo's you gotta switch with crap like Sentinels/sabs/medics to deal with quickly.

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From: GuessMyUserName | #072
... I've beaten the game pretty much entirely using Auto.

"Pretty much entirely" or "entirely?"

Because we ARE trying to discern the difference between these two.

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GuessMyUserName posted...
... I've beaten the game pretty much entirely using Auto. I may have played around with trying to select my options in the beginning, but eventually I just gave into the auto and had no problem at all.


Well, I just don't believe you. As Leon said, even just the fact that the Medic AI is pretty crappy makes it so you can't coast through on Auto.

I was losing to regular enemies on Auto sometimes, let alone bosses.

Did you just overly grind or something.

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Pretty much every boss in FFXIII will kill you dead if you don't participate (and most of the random mobs once you get to Pulse). This argument has never made any sense

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I hate FF12/13 arguments because they're so reductive. it's always "the gameplay!" vs. "the narrative!", or "the linearity!" vs. "the empty world!". there's so much more to these games than just individual parts and trying to argue pieces of them kind of misses the point, I think.

for example, FF13's problems cut deeper than just that the game is linear or that it's slow to develop or even that it has mediocre story and characters. there's a ton of moving parts that all combine to deliver a fairly shallow and empty experience. tons of games (Shadow Hearts, Xenogears, FF9/10 to name a few) have been super linear and they rarely took the criticism that FF13 has. Xenoblade is a game that can draw comparisons to FF12 but no one is hitting it for the same faults that FF12 has/ these are just objective things you can point to that make it easy to argue about.

FF13 just isn't a very captivating game. the narrative never drives you to want to see the next area and the gameplay never really leaves you wanting more. I've heard that some people really like the battle system but I never hear people talk about a particular part of the game that really hooked them or a boss fight that was awesome. maybe some people are like that, I don't know. FF13 just seems like a game people can like but not love.

FF12 feels incomplete. you start out in a massive bustling town that's very Star Wars-y, the world feels massive and there's some interesting buildup, but then the game slowly scales back until you just feel like the world is empty. I can see somebody liking the scale that they're going for, but the execution feels like they lost their way halfway into the development process.

FF12 and FF13 usually get argued as being polar opposites, but I think people need to look at more than just the open ended game vs. the corridor game when talking about these two. there's a lot of other stuff to talk about.

shrug

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From: StealThisSheen | #076
Did you just overly grind or something.

Knowing GMUN, probably.

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From: LeonhartFour | Posted: 1/28/2012 8:57:06 PM | #075
"Pretty much entirely" or "entirely?"

Because we ARE trying to discern the difference between these two.

but there's hardly any difference at all

beating 95% of the game with auto isn't much different than beating 100% of the game with auto

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From: transience | #078
but I never hear people talk about a particular part of the game that really hooked them or a boss fight that was awesome.

I could roll off a few if you like!

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this is why we should all just settle on liking 10

because unlike 12 and 13 pretty much everyone likes it

From: transience | #078
bustling town that's very Star Wars-y,

Very more like the game is Star Wars with the FF name slapped on it.

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You can't beat turtles by choosing auto!

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go for it! I have kinda forgotten everything about the game. FF12 and FF13 are both very unmemorable. I can recall FF7-10 parts in a heartbeat, even if I didn't like the game, but 12 and 13? nah.

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transience posted...
go for it! I have kinda forgotten everything about the game. FF12 and FF13 are both very unmemorable. I can recall FF7-10 parts in a heartbeat, even if I didn't like the game, but 12 and 13? nah.

I'm Captain Basch!

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You didn't even beat the game tran.

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Boss fights:

1. Pretty much any Eidolon battle
2. Any Barthandelus battle
3. Cid battle
4. Proud Clod
5. Giant Bulbasaur

Moments:

1. Pretty much the entirety of Chapter 7 - Take your pick
2. SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS
3. The big reveal at the end of Chapter 9 (Mostly for the presentation of the scene and seguing it into "Fighting Fate" and the boss fight, excellent job with the presentation)

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WORST BIRTHDAY EVER.

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Oh right, the opening FMVs of Chapters 11 and 12, too.

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I remember the Bart battle in chapter 9 because he's got the annoying kill you instantly think or whatever.

Eidolon battles pissed me off more than anything! it just seemed like you had to learn what they did and then follow the optimal pattern. gameplay linearity, if you will.

only got a ways into chapter 11, so not sure what the rest are. I may have done them, I don't remember!

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I'm just popping in here to say that if you have FF12 play itself, it plays itself according to the instructions that you issue. If the AI throws a potion on a low HP unit because I set it to use potions on allies below 30%, then I'm still the one responsible for any given potion use. The AI's just automating the process.

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You have to learn patterns for pretty much any boss fight in any game.

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From: transience | #092
it just seemed like you had to learn what they did and then follow the optimal pattern. gameplay linearity, if you will.

Or basically any other semi-difficult RPG boss battle ever.

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my favourite part of FF13 was when you first get paradigms and you're walking through some kind of ice forest or something. I just loved fighting enemies, flipping through paradigms and progressing my characters. I thought the game was legitimately great there.

and then I hit a point where I couldn't level my guys anymore and my video game boner went away instantly. damn you ff13

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MalcolmMasher posted...
I'm just popping in here to say that if you have FF12 play itself, it plays itself according to the instructions that you issue. If the AI throws a potion on a low HP unit because I set it to use potions on allies below 30%, then I'm still the one responsible for any given potion use. The AI's just automating the process.


Well, that was my problem with it! It was so boring and straight forward that the fact I could literally have it make my exact decisions for me was just too tempting to ignore.

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My favorite part of FFXIII is when I quit and went back to Mass Effect 2.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.

Well, that was my problem with it! It was so boring and straight forward that the fact I could literally have it make my exact decisions for me was just too tempting to ignore.

Just like auto-battle in FFXIII!

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.

Once you set your 12 gambits per character, it becomes pretty hard to lose.

I got so bored I just killed the final boss by chucking all my coins at him.

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