Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 172: Steiner, Dutt, and Magnus walk into India...

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SmartMuffin 02/16/12 9:56:00 PM #251:	Fun fact: Now that there's three (four?) "main events" at wrestlemania, the royal rumble really doesn't result in a mandatory anything anymore? Stuck with a rumble winner who's upper midcard and struggling to get over? No worries! Just feed him to Edge in the first match and move on with the card you really want to have! -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:794380] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> Fun fact: Now that there's three (four?) "main events" at wrestlemania, the royal rumble really doesn't result in a mandatory anything anymore?Stuck with a rumble winner who's upper midcard and struggling to get over? No worries! Just feed him to Edge in the first match and move on with the card you really want to have! -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 02/16/12 9:58:00 PM #252:	I meant you hate it as a Mandatory Gimmick PPV -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:794381] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> I meant you hate it as a Mandatory Gimmick PPV -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 02/16/12 10:05:00 PM #253:	And for the record, Lopen, I'm not saying I think you're wrong or anything, I'm just saying I disagree. I may in fact be totally overrating it just because of the consistently high match quality and the fact that WWE booked a major story with an ending for once. Just out of curiosity, what was your pick for Feud of the Year 2011? -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:794382] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> And for the record, Lopen, I'm not saying I think you're wrong or anything, I'm just saying I disagree. I may in fact be totally overrating it just because of the consistently high match quality and the fact that WWE booked a major story with an ending for once.Just out of curiosity, what was your pick for Feud of the Year 2011? -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dauntless Hunter 02/16/12 10:06:00 PM #254:	From: edwardsdv \| #126 Without a serious change in character, which may have just arrived, I at least am never capable of taking him seriously. Sounds like your problem, not Zack's! -- SuperNiceDog may be the Guru Champion... But SuperBowlGiants are the NFL Champions! <cite>Dauntless Hunter posted [p:794383] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> From: edwardsdv \| #126Without a serious change in character, which may have just arrived, I at least am never capable of taking him seriously.Sounds like your problem, not Zack's! -- SuperNiceDog may be the Guru Champion...But SuperBowlGiants are the NFL Champions! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lopen 02/16/12 11:06:00 PM #255:	Punk vs Cena was the only feud I felt was worth anything of note. Yeah, it didn't end properly but at its peak it was the only feud that really drew me in in 2011. I tend to like feuds that have matches that are tough for me to call and have something fresh rather than "good storytelling." Though I'd argue that the only good part of the story of Orton vs Christian was that it ended proper, which as you said is a rarity in wrestling these days so it's worth something. The funny thing about Orton/Christian is if you just make Orton look vulnerable at any point I buy into it as a good feud. I really think they missed a good opportunity at the point where Orton got himself dqed to lose the belt from Christian goading. Had Christian exploited his rage more and actually made Orton lose once or twice more and learn to control himself at least temporarily to get what he wanted that would've made it worth it, for me. Would've been better than Teddy just going "No DQ, playa!" and letting Orton's ragey ass refuse to evolve. I know you say "it's about Christian" but I don't think that story being told about Christian is very interesting beyond the first chapter, because Orton's not an interesting antagonist. -- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love! <cite>Lopen posted [p:794384] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> Punk vs Cena was the only feud I felt was worth anything of note. Yeah, it didn't end properly but at its peak it was the only feud that really drew me in in 2011. I tend to like feuds that have matches that are tough for me to call and have something fresh rather than "good storytelling." Though I'd argue that the only good part of the story of Orton vs Christian was that it ended proper, which as you said is a rarity in wrestling these days so it's worth something. The funny thing about Orton/Christian is if you just make Orton look vulnerable at any point I buy into it as a good feud. I really think they missed a good opportunity at the point where Orton got himself dqed to lose the belt from Christian goading. Had Christian exploited his rage more and actually made Orton lose once or twice more and learn to control himself at least temporarily to get what he wanted that would've made it worth it, for me. Would've been better than Teddy just going "No DQ, playa!" and letting Orton's ragey ass refuse to evolve. I know you say "it's about Christian" but I don't think that story being told about Christian is very interesting beyond the first chapter, because Orton's not an interesting antagonist. -- No problem!This is a cute and pop genocide of love! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ScareChan 02/16/12 11:11:00 PM #256:	If Kurt Angle was in the 80s and had won a gold medal, and they wanted him to go heel do you think they would have had him denounce his citizenship and become like french or something and then go try to win another medal for another country how amazing would that be -- Circle gets the Scare! Imagine if Jesus knew kung fu. That's what everyone is dealing with <cite>ScareChan posted [p:794385] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> If Kurt Angle was in the 80s and had won a gold medal, and they wanted him to go heel do you think they would have had him denounce his citizenship and become like french or something and then go try to win another medal for another countryhow amazing would that be -- Circle gets the Scare!Imagine if Jesus knew kung fu. That's what everyone is dealing with </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
RL5 02/16/12 11:26:00 PM #257:	From: Lopen \| #255 The funny thing about Orton/Christian is if you just make Orton look vulnerable at any point I buy into it as a good feud. I really think they missed a good opportunity at the point where Orton got himself dqed to lose the belt from Christian goading. Had Christian exploited his rage more and actually made Orton lose once or twice more and learn to control himself at least temporarily to get what he wanted that would've made it worth it, for me. Would've been better than Teddy just going "No DQ, playa!" and letting Orton's ragey ass refuse to evolve. I know you say "it's about Christian" but I don't think that story being told about Christian is very interesting beyond the first chapter, because Orton's not an interesting antagonist. I've got to agree with JaKyL. This story works very, very well for me with Christian just being second best. If Orton looks vulnerable at any point, that gets ruined for me. Orton's role in the story is to be the best in the world, and to drive Christian to give up playing fair. I think I might be straying from what JaKyL said here, but to me one of the biggest levels the story worked on was as a sort of a deconstruction of the heel turn. I mean yeah, if what you like out of a feud is unpredictable outcomes rather than storytelling, this was not going to be your kind of narrative. -- Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police http://i55.tinypic.com/21ozujs.gif <cite>RL5 posted [p:794386] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> From: Lopen \| #255The funny thing about Orton/Christian is if you just make Orton look vulnerable at any point I buy into it as a good feud. I really think they missed a good opportunity at the point where Orton got himself dqed to lose the belt from Christian goading. Had Christian exploited his rage more and actually made Orton lose once or twice more and learn to control himself at least temporarily to get what he wanted that would've made it worth it, for me. Would've been better than Teddy just going "No DQ, playa!" and letting Orton's ragey ass refuse to evolve. I know you say "it's about Christian" but I don't think that story being told about Christian is very interesting beyond the first chapter, because Orton's not an interesting antagonist.I've got to agree with JaKyL. This story works very, very well for me with Christian just being second best. If Orton looks vulnerable at any point, that gets ruined for me. Orton's role in the story is to be the best in the world, and to drive Christian to give up playing fair. I think I might be straying from what JaKyL said here, but to me one of the biggest levels the story worked on was as a sort of a deconstruction of the heel turn.I mean yeah, if what you like out of a feud is unpredictable outcomes rather than storytelling, this was not going to be your kind of narrative. -- Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Policehttp://i55.tinypic.com/21ozujs.gif </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lopen 02/16/12 11:46:00 PM #258:	Well you can make Orton be unbeatable until Christian starts playing unfairly, then have Orton become sorta vulnerable once Christian outsmarts him Honestly I can't see what the story actually gains you by having Orton be invincible after Christian wins the belt through cheap methods. The only real effect is you prevent Orton's character from evolving at that point, unless the message of the story is "hey Christian the cheap way doesn't ever pay in the long run and now you look pathetic for doing it" in which case that's a story better left for Saturday morning cartoons not wrestling. Granted it's a TV-PG product now so maybe that's intentional. -- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love! <cite>Lopen posted [p:794387] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> Well you can make Orton be unbeatable until Christian starts playing unfairly, then have Orton become sorta vulnerable once Christian outsmarts himHonestly I can't see what the story actually gains you by having Orton be invincible after Christian wins the belt through cheap methods. The only real effect is you prevent Orton's character from evolving at that point, unless the message of the story is "hey Christian the cheap way doesn't ever pay in the long run and now you look pathetic for doing it" in which case that's a story better left for Saturday morning cartoons not wrestling. Granted it's a TV-PG product now so maybe that's intentional. -- No problem!This is a cute and pop genocide of love! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
edwardsdv 02/17/12 2:06:00 AM #259:	*JaKyL25 posted...* From: Lopen \| #234 For the record Orton's feud with Christian winning the Feud of the Year was probably by default as much as anything. A fair chunk of the general 2011 awards from various places gave it to Cena vs. Punk, actually. But what about Orton vs. Christian wasn't good, in your opinion? I feel like they had 5 of the top 20 WWE matches of 2011 just 1-on-1 in that feud alone, and it followed a coherent and unusually fresh narrative, with a deeply fulfilling payoff (which is THE number one complaint about WWE booking generally, and rightfully so). Also TNA has been stepping up so it's not all WWE flopping when I say TNA has been the best show for weeks now. TNA is better than WWE right now, sure, but Raw two weeks ago was the best TV episode of any show all year IMO. TNA is not on some massive "Show of the Week" streak to me at least. Their PPVs are better than Impact, which is a total reversal of typical TNA. To me, pretty much since talc, TNA has been consistently the better show and IS riding a massive show of the week streak. TNAs crap is blatant. Nostalgia and keeping the hulkster relevent. But pretty much since immortal has imploded that's been sideshow to the great main event angles witharies' x division and tnas womencruiserweight style knockouts div. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? <cite>edwardsdv posted [p:794388] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> JaKyL25 posted...From: Lopen \| #234For the record Orton's feud with Christian winning the Feud of the Year was probably by default as much as anything.A fair chunk of the general 2011 awards from various places gave it to Cena vs. Punk, actually.But what about Orton vs. Christian wasn't good, in your opinion? I feel like they had 5 of the top 20 WWE matches of 2011 just 1-on-1 in that feud alone, and it followed a coherent and unusually fresh narrative, with a deeply fulfilling payoff (which is THE number one complaint about WWE booking generally, and rightfully so).Also TNA has been stepping up so it's not all WWE flopping when I say TNA has been the best show for weeks now.TNA is better than WWE right now, sure, but Raw two weeks ago was the best TV episode of any show all year IMO. TNA is not on some massive "Show of the Week" streak to me at least. Their PPVs are better than Impact, which is a total reversal of typical TNA.To me, pretty much since talc, TNA has been consistently the better show and IS riding a massive show of the week streak. TNAs crap is blatant. Nostalgia and keeping the hulkster relevent. But pretty much since immortal has imploded that's been sideshow to the great main event angles witharies' x division and tnas womencruiserweight style knockouts div. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.pngedwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/17/12 6:44:00 AM #260:	From: JaKyL25 \| #252 I meant you hate it as a Mandatory Gimmick PPV Well, in a way, yeah! But the Rumble manages to be tolerable for a couple reasons. The first is that it's always portrayed in a positive light. Nobody, face or heel, ever complains about the rumble happening. You never have some annoying heel character going "I want my rumble" as a catch-phrase designed to make people hate them. Also, it's old enough to have become an integral part of a main storyline (wrestlemania). I'm also sort of okay with gimmick PPVs when done correctly. By correctly, I basically mean that the gimmick really isn't that hugely altering of match dynamics. Take Lockdown for example. Having a bunch of cage matches can work in any storyline at any time and doesn't necessarily alter the dynamics of whatever is going on, or how the matches themselves play out. Whereas having a "fatal four way" PPV totally requires you to dramatically change everything just because it happens to be July, or whenever the hell that thing is. But, to make a long story short, I'd be totally okay if one year, they decided that they had a much better way to execute their storyline than the royal rumble, and decided to skip it. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:794389] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> From: JaKyL25 \| #252I meant you hate it as a Mandatory Gimmick PPVWell, in a way, yeah!But the Rumble manages to be tolerable for a couple reasons. The first is that it's always portrayed in a positive light. Nobody, face or heel, ever complains about the rumble happening. You never have some annoying heel character going "I want my rumble" as a catch-phrase designed to make people hate them. Also, it's old enough to have become an integral part of a main storyline (wrestlemania).I'm also sort of okay with gimmick PPVs when done correctly. By correctly, I basically mean that the gimmick really isn't that hugely altering of match dynamics. Take Lockdown for example. Having a bunch of cage matches can work in any storyline at any time and doesn't necessarily alter the dynamics of whatever is going on, or how the matches themselves play out. Whereas having a "fatal four way" PPV totally requires you to dramatically change everything just because it happens to be July, or whenever the hell that thing is.But, to make a long story short, I'd be totally okay if one year, they decided that they had a much better way to execute their storyline than the royal rumble, and decided to skip it. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
PrivateBiscuit1 02/17/12 8:57:00 AM #261:	Anniversary Episode of Z! True Long Island Story! John Cena broke the first rule of the Broski Code: Broskies Before Hoeskies. Zack Ryder putting Cena on BLAST. -- Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1 Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit! <cite>PrivateBiscuit1 posted [p:794390] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> Anniversary Episode of Z! True Long Island Story!John Cena broke the first rule of the Broski Code: Broskies Before Hoeskies. Zack Ryder putting Cena on BLAST. -- Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
XIII_rocks 02/17/12 9:09:00 AM #262:	XD JoMo -- http://i.minus.com/iUVnhKxM7l5DG.gif <cite>XIII_rocks posted [p:794391] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> XD JoMo -- http://i.minus.com/iUVnhKxM7l5DG.gif </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DeathChicken 02/17/12 9:18:00 AM #263:	Goddammit, how come Morrison is so awesome at pretaped promos but sucks so badly at live promos -- We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable <cite>DeathChicken posted [p:794392] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> Goddammit, how come Morrison is so awesome at pretaped promos but sucks so badly at live promos -- We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SHINE GET 64 02/17/12 10:02:00 AM #264:	Rock too awesome for a tie -- http://i.imgur.com/8h0dg.jpg http://www.yourgamercards.net/trophy/a/CaptainRockman.png <cite>SHINE GET 64 posted [p:794393] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> Rock too awesome for a tie -- http://i.imgur.com/8h0dg.jpghttp://www.yourgamercards.net/trophy/a/CaptainRockman.png </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Panthera 02/17/12 10:09:00 AM #265:	The problems with Orton/Christian were mainly A) It was never in doubt - they established that absolutely nothing Christian did would ever be enough to win, and Orton merely had to hit one RKO (which he can do at any point, no matter how much abuse he's taken) and he'd win. The matches were great, but it basically set it up so that if Christian actually won with anything short of having three other guys join in to help him, it would feel like a plot hole. B) It was utterly generic - there was no complexity or character development going on here, what was the point? "The bad guy is bad"? Like every single other heel ever? Wow, a heel who wants to win the title by cheating and get out of defending it if at all possible, when have I seen that before, certainly not every major heel the WWE has had for god knows how long (even Mark Henry eventually fell into that pattern once Big Show returned). There was nothing going on to set it apart from anything else. C) It was a complete joke how it even started. Am I really the only person who remembers prior to winning the title how Christian cut a backstage promo about how throughout his career, even when his friends like Edge were winning world titles and he'd join in the celebration, he refused to actually touch the belt because he felt he hadn't earned it yet? How after losing the title, he didn't immediately snap but instead accepted that a champion has to accept the possibility of defeat and it means he just had to earn it back, which he felt he was capable of? There we had an interesting character, the pro wrestling champion who DOESN'T just immediately transform everything about himself in response to something going wrong. But nope, at some point we needed to have his entire personality do a 180 overnight, now he's always been desperate to hold the belt without earning it even though absolutely everything about him beforehand said he was the one guy who would not accept a title he didn't deserve because it was proving he was good enough to be on the top that mattered to him, not just being champion. -- Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved. <cite>Panthera posted [p:794394] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> The problems with Orton/Christian were mainlyA) It was never in doubt - they established that absolutely nothing Christian did would ever be enough to win, and Orton merely had to hit one RKO (which he can do at any point, no matter how much abuse he's taken) and he'd win. The matches were great, but it basically set it up so that if Christian actually won with anything short of having three other guys join in to help him, it would feel like a plot hole.B) It was utterly generic - there was no complexity or character development going on here, what was the point? "The bad guy is bad"? Like every single other heel ever? Wow, a heel who wants to win the title by cheating and get out of defending it if at all possible, when have I seen that before, certainly not every major heel the WWE has had for god knows how long (even Mark Henry eventually fell into that pattern once Big Show returned). There was nothing going on to set it apart from anything else.C) It was a complete joke how it even started. Am I really the only person who remembers prior to winning the title how Christian cut a backstage promo about how throughout his career, even when his friends like Edge were winning world titles and he'd join in the celebration, he refused to actually touch the belt because he felt he hadn't earned it yet? How after losing the title, he didn't immediately snap but instead accepted that a champion has to accept the possibility of defeat and it means he just had to earn it back, which he felt he was capable of? There we had an interesting character, the pro wrestling champion who DOESN'T just immediately transform everything about himself in response to something going wrong. But nope, at some point we needed to have his entire personality do a 180 overnight, now he's always been desperate to hold the belt without earning it even though absolutely everything about him beforehand said he was the one guy who would not accept a title he didn't deserve because it was proving he was good enough to be on the top that mattered to him, not just being champion. -- Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
XIII_rocks 02/17/12 10:19:00 AM #266:	The face vs. face part of Orton vs. Christian was great tbqh. It did lose some steam after Christian's turn but yeah. I'd have liked Christian to have become more aggressive while maintaining face status but that's hard to do. -- XIII_rocks, the cream of XIII fanboyism. <cite>XIII_rocks posted [p:794395] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> The face vs. face part of Orton vs. Christian was great tbqh. It did lose some steam after Christian's turn but yeah. I'd have liked Christian to have become more aggressive while maintaining face status but that's hard to do. -- XIII_rocks, the cream of XIII fanboyism. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Chronic1000 02/17/12 10:27:00 AM #267:	I still maintain having Christian turning heel was one of the worst decisions they made with that entire angle. Christian went from sympathetic face you wanted to see get the title back to a heel who didn't get an ounce of heel heat (unless it was cheap heat) because everyone wanted to see him win it back. -- http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/61035294 - My MST3K Watchthrough topic. <cite>Chronic1000 posted [p:794396] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> I still maintain having Christian turning heel was one of the worst decisions they made with that entire angle. Christian went from sympathetic face you wanted to see get the title back to a heel who didn't get an ounce of heel heat (unless it was cheap heat) because everyone wanted to see him win it back. -- http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/61035294 - My MST3K Watchthrough topic. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
PrivateBiscuit1 02/17/12 10:31:00 AM #268:	I remember never being as demoralized at wrestling than the time I learned that Christian lost the title two days after getting it to Orton. Like, I was actually depressed over that because I was always such a huge Christian fan. -- Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1 Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit! <cite>PrivateBiscuit1 posted [p:794397] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> I remember never being as demoralized at wrestling than the time I learned that Christian lost the title two days after getting it to Orton. Like, I was actually depressed over that because I was always such a huge Christian fan. -- Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
edwardsdv 02/17/12 10:31:00 AM #269:	From: RL5 \| #246 I'm more in love with the fact that he's a total delusional egomaniac who, even though he resorts to winning matches though really cowardly means, doesn't act like a coward at all. He gets right up in the faces of guys like Big Show, insulting them, and even slapping them. Also in that last match he had, he provoked a guy outside the ring not just to get the DQ, but to drive two of his PPV opponents against each other. This would be fine. It could be great. But that he feels the need to resort to an absurdist vegans are the master race gimmick just kills it for me. He's a joke strictly because thats a part of his character. I mean I can like a classic heel kind of motif, especially done well, which I think Bryan is more than capable of. But there are limits to how goofy you can be as a serious heel and Bryan has gone past them. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? <cite>edwardsdv posted [p:794398] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> From: RL5 \| #246I'm more in love with the fact that he's a total delusional egomaniac who, even though he resorts to winning matches though really cowardly means, doesn't act like a coward at all. He gets right up in the faces of guys like Big Show, insulting them, and even slapping them.Also in that last match he had, he provoked a guy outside the ring not just to get the DQ, but to drive two of his PPV opponents against each other.This would be fine. It could be great.But that he feels the need to resort to an absurdist vegans are the master race gimmick just kills it for me. He's a joke strictly because thats a part of his character. I mean I can like a classic heel kind of motif, especially done well, which I think Bryan is more than capable of. But there are limits to how goofy you can be as a serious heel and Bryan has gone past them. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.pngedwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
PrivateBiscuit1 02/17/12 10:32:00 AM #270:	You have a strange, strange perception of wrestling, edwards. -- Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1 Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit! <cite>PrivateBiscuit1 posted [p:794399] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> You have a strange, strange perception of wrestling, edwards. -- Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Chronic1000 02/17/12 10:37:00 AM #271:	*PrivateBiscuit1 posted...* I remember never being as demoralized at wrestling than the time I learned that Christian lost the title two days after getting it to Orton. Like, I was actually depressed over that because I was always such a huge Christian fan. Were you in the WCW PPV watchfest chat when that happened? It really killed the PPV for us, that's for sure. -- http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/61035294 - My MST3K Watchthrough topic. <cite>Chronic1000 posted [p:794400] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> PrivateBiscuit1 posted...I remember never being as demoralized at wrestling than the time I learned that Christian lost the title two days after getting it to Orton. Like, I was actually depressed over that because I was always such a huge Christian fan.Were you in the WCW PPV watchfest chat when that happened? It really killed the PPV for us, that's for sure. -- http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/61035294 - My MST3K Watchthrough topic. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
edwardsdv 02/17/12 10:37:00 AM #272:	What I mean isi t just feels totally out of character. Like the million Dollar man showing up one day and being "I'm the best wrestler ever because I'm actually from NEPTUNE." Bryans thing is that he is better because he's got the experience and the submissions. Being a vegan, recycling, driving a prius, are just unrelated tangents good for nothing but cheap heat with conservative viewers. Which he doesn't even need, he was doing GREAT as a heel without tacking on "San Francisco d-bag." It detracts more from his character than it adds. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? <cite>edwardsdv posted [p:794401] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> What I mean isi t just feels totally out of character. Like the million Dollar man showing up one day and being "I'm the best wrestler ever because I'm actually from NEPTUNE."Bryans thing is that he is better because he's got the experience and the submissions. Being a vegan, recycling, driving a prius, are just unrelated tangents good for nothing but cheap heat with conservative viewers. Which he doesn't even need, he was doing GREAT as a heel without tacking on "San Francisco d-bag." It detracts more from his character than it adds. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.pngedwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
edwardsdv 02/17/12 10:38:00 AM #273:	From: Chronic1000 \| #271 Were you in the WCW PPV watchfest chat when that happened? It really killed the PPV for us, that's for sure. I thin kthis was also the infamous Sullivan/Benoit PPV. We were so dead. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? <cite>edwardsdv posted [p:794402] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> From: Chronic1000 \| #271Were you in the WCW PPV watchfest chat when that happened? It really killed the PPV for us, that's for sure.I thin kthis was also the infamous Sullivan/Benoit PPV. We were so dead. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.pngedwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Chronic1000 02/17/12 10:53:00 AM #274:	Oh god, don't remind me of that strap match, edsv. Though, I could have sworn the strap match happened a different day, because it was just you, me, and Bidoof in on that one, and I could have sworn Voltch was watching the WCW PPV with us the night Christian lost to Orton. Edit: For reference: Here's a link to the strap (Well, San Franciso Death) match we're making reference to. Trust me, you'll understand what exactly we're talking about when you see it. The incident will be around the 5:00 minute mark. -- http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/61035294 - My MST3K Watchthrough topic. <cite>Chronic1000 posted [p:794403] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> Oh god, don't remind me of that strap match, edsv. Though, I could have sworn the strap match happened a different day, because it was just you, me, and Bidoof in on that one, and I could have sworn Voltch was watching the WCW PPV with us the night Christian lost to Orton.Edit: For reference: Here's a link to the strap (Well, San Franciso Death) match we're making reference to. Trust me, you'll understand what exactly we're talking about when you see it. The incident will be around the 5:00 minute mark. -- http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/61035294 - My MST3K Watchthrough topic. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 02/17/12 11:32:00 AM #275:	From: Panthera \| #265 A) It was never in doubt - they established that absolutely nothing Christian did would ever be enough to win, and Orton merely had to hit one RKO (which he can do at any point, no matter how much abuse he's taken) and he'd win. The matches were great, but it basically set it up so that if Christian actually won with anything short of having three other guys join in to help him, it would feel like a plot hole. I personally have no inherent problem with stories that are 100% predictable (which you're right, this totally was). Some people do, and if you do this is a completely legit criticism, but then I would caution that you're probably following the wrong business. <_< -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:794404] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> From: Panthera \| #265A) It was never in doubt - they established that absolutely nothing Christian did would ever be enough to win, and Orton merely had to hit one RKO (which he can do at any point, no matter how much abuse he's taken) and he'd win. The matches were great, but it basically set it up so that if Christian actually won with anything short of having three other guys join in to help him, it would feel like a plot hole.I personally have no inherent problem with stories that are 100% predictable (which you're right, this totally was). Some people do, and if you do this is a completely legit criticism, but then I would caution that you're probably following the wrong business. <_< -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 02/17/12 11:32:00 AM #276:	B) It was utterly generic - there was no complexity or character development going on here, what was the point? "The bad guy is bad"? Like every single other heel ever? Wow, a heel who wants to win the title by cheating and get out of defending it if at all possible, when have I seen that before, certainly not every major heel the WWE has had for god knows how long (even Mark Henry eventually fell into that pattern once Big Show returned). There was nothing going on to set it apart from anything else. C) It was a complete joke how it even started. Am I really the only person who remembers prior to winning the title how Christian cut a backstage promo about how throughout his career, even when his friends like Edge were winning world titles and he'd join in the celebration, he refused to actually touch the belt because he felt he hadn't earned it yet? How after losing the title, he didn't immediately snap but instead accepted that a champion has to accept the possibility of defeat and it means he just had to earn it back, which he felt he was capable of? There we had an interesting character, the pro wrestling champion who DOESN'T just immediately transform everything about himself in response to something going wrong. But nope, at some point we needed to have his entire personality do a 180 overnight, now he's always been desperate to hold the belt without earning it even though absolutely everything about him beforehand said he was the one guy who would not accept a title he didn't deserve because it was proving he was good enough to be on the top that mattered to him, not just being champion. B & C kind of run together in a sense. How it started was so crucial and for all the backlash against it at the time, it completely worked out in the end. Yes, Christian ended up doing the same actions as any other slimy loopholing heel, but it was how he GOT to that point that captivated me. All that stuff about Christian not touching the belt and knowing that one day he would earn it is the twist. Most heels just wake up one day and decide to cheat because it's easier. What set Christian apart was that he cheats because he has to. Since he was told all his life that he would never hold a World Title in WWE, the knowledge deep down that they were wrong, that he was capable of being (and beating) the best in the world when it counted, drove him to fight honorably and wait for his chance. Then, in an incredible stroke of "right place, right time," he found himself in a situation where he was facing someone for the title that he knew he could defeat, in what was essentially his pet match. No realistic circumstance could have benefited Christian more than a ladder match against a newer wrestler without Championship or Ladder Match experience. And thus, things broke in his favor, and he walked out with his life's goal. Then 5 days later it all came crashing down, because being the Champion means defending the title against others with the claim of being better. And in kayfabe, Randy Orton is better than Christian. Always has been, always will be. So then, like you said, he assumed that he was just put in a bad spot that night and still fought honorably in his rematch, knowing that with time to prepare, he could take Orton. He was wrong. Under equally fair ideal circumstances for both men, Randy Orton was still the better man. So now what? What does a man do when his entire belief system comes crashing down? What happens to someone who finally realizes that he ISN'T Championship material? Some men, stronger men, go back to the drawing board to refine and re-invent their training, their scouting, and their arsenal. Christian has never been a strong man. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:794405] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> B) It was utterly generic - there was no complexity or character development going on here, what was the point? "The bad guy is bad"? Like every single other heel ever? Wow, a heel who wants to win the title by cheating and get out of defending it if at all possible, when have I seen that before, certainly not every major heel the WWE has had for god knows how long (even Mark Henry eventually fell into that pattern once Big Show returned). There was nothing going on to set it apart from anything else.C) It was a complete joke how it even started. Am I really the only person who remembers prior to winning the title how Christian cut a backstage promo about how throughout his career, even when his friends like Edge were winning world titles and he'd join in the celebration, he refused to actually touch the belt because he felt he hadn't earned it yet? How after losing the title, he didn't immediately snap but instead accepted that a champion has to accept the possibility of defeat and it means he just had to earn it back, which he felt he was capable of? There we had an interesting character, the pro wrestling champion who DOESN'T just immediately transform everything about himself in response to something going wrong. But nope, at some point we needed to have his entire personality do a 180 overnight, now he's always been desperate to hold the belt without earning it even though absolutely everything about him beforehand said he was the one guy who would not accept a title he didn't deserve because it was proving he was good enough to be on the top that mattered to him, not just being champion.B & C kind of run together in a sense. How it started was so crucial and for all the backlash against it at the time, it completely worked out in the end. Yes, Christian ended up doing the same actions as any other slimy loopholing heel, but it was how he GOT to that point that captivated me.All that stuff about Christian not touching the belt and knowing that one day he would earn it is the twist. Most heels just wake up one day and decide to cheat because it's easier. What set Christian apart was that he cheats because he has to. Since he was told all his life that he would never hold a World Title in WWE, the knowledge deep down that they were wrong, that he was capable of being (and beating) the best in the world when it counted, drove him to fight honorably and wait for his chance.Then, in an incredible stroke of "right place, right time," he found himself in a situation where he was facing someone for the title that he knew he could defeat, in what was essentially his pet match. No realistic circumstance could have benefited Christian more than a ladder match against a newer wrestler without Championship or Ladder Match experience. And thus, things broke in his favor, and he walked out with his life's goal.Then 5 days later it all came crashing down, because being the Champion means defending the title against others with the claim of being better. And in kayfabe, Randy Orton is better than Christian. Always has been, always will be.So then, like you said, he assumed that he was just put in a bad spot that night and still fought honorably in his rematch, knowing that with time to prepare, he could take Orton.He was wrong. Under equally fair ideal circumstances for both men, Randy Orton was still the better man.So now what? What does a man do when his entire belief system comes crashing down? What happens to someone who finally realizes that he ISN'T Championship material? Some men, stronger men, go back to the drawing board to refine and re-invent their training, their scouting, and their arsenal. Christian has never been a strong man. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 02/17/12 11:33:00 AM #277:	WWE history has repeatedly shown that Christian is very weak-minded, from Gangrel's manipulation, to Edge & Christian's title-saving shenanigans, to the inferiority complex over Edge finally reaching singles success, to the temper tantrums over losing the European Title, to the jealousy over Chris Jericho's success, Christian has always, always taken the easy way out when faced with adversity. In ECW he never had to, as a big fish in a small pond, but SmackDown is a much deeper pond than ECW. So when given a bevy of easy excuses ("Making me defend it so soon was unfair!" "My foot was under the rope!"), the weak mind of Christian pounced on them, and reveled in them, and actually managed to use them to backdoor his way to the title one more time (he might be the only World Champion ever who earned that status by being kicked in the balls). But the cream always rises to the top, and in the end, Orton walked away with what was rightfully his. At least until Mark Henry earned a shot... -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:794406] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> WWE history has repeatedly shown that Christian is very weak-minded, from Gangrel's manipulation, to Edge & Christian's title-saving shenanigans, to the inferiority complex over Edge finally reaching singles success, to the temper tantrums over losing the European Title, to the jealousy over Chris Jericho's success, Christian has always, always taken the easy way out when faced with adversity. In ECW he never had to, as a big fish in a small pond, but SmackDown is a much deeper pond than ECW.So when given a bevy of easy excuses ("Making me defend it so soon was unfair!" "My foot was under the rope!"), the weak mind of Christian pounced on them, and reveled in them, and actually managed to use them to backdoor his way to the title one more time (he might be the only World Champion ever who earned that status by being kicked in the balls). But the cream always rises to the top, and in the end, Orton walked away with what was rightfully his.At least until Mark Henry earned a shot... -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
edwardsdv 02/17/12 12:04:00 PM #278:	my favorite what if from that scenario is imagine if Henry wins that crowd chooses the challenger thing and gets thte title that much earlier. Could Christian EVEN cheat to win? -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? <cite>edwardsdv posted [p:794407] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> my favorite what if from that scenario is imagine if Henry wins that crowd chooses the challenger thing and gets thte title that much earlier. Could Christian EVEN cheat to win? -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.pngedwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WarThaNemesis2 02/17/12 12:05:00 PM #279:	I think the internet would have killed itself if Christian had dropped the belt to Mark Henry on the first Smackdown after he won it. -- http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh293/zukiraphaera/war-sig-1.png http://i.imgur.com/597oi.png <cite>WarThaNemesis2 posted [p:794408] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> I think the internet would have killed itself if Christian had dropped the belt to Mark Henry on the first Smackdown after he won it. -- http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh293/zukiraphaera/war-sig-1.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/597oi.png </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 02/17/12 12:06:00 PM #280:	I think WWE would have collectively pissed itself if May 2011 Mark Henry was more over than Randy Orton. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:794409] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> I think WWE would have collectively pissed itself if May 2011 Mark Henry was more over than Randy Orton. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
muddersmilk 02/17/12 12:08:00 PM #281:	*edwardsdv posted...* my favorite what if from that scenario is imagine if Henry wins that crowd chooses the challenger thing and gets thte title that much earlier. Could Christian EVEN cheat to win? Henry kills him in the rematch, injures him (in kayfabe), and Christian doesn't get another shot. -- (Maniac64 at work) Guns don't kill people, Kinder eggs do. I saw it in a post on GameFAQs. ~FAHtastic <cite>muddersmilk posted [p:794410] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> edwardsdv posted...my favorite what if from that scenario is imagine if Henry wins that crowd chooses the challenger thing and gets thte title that much earlier. Could Christian EVEN cheat to win?Henry kills him in the rematch, injures him (in kayfabe), and Christian doesn't get another shot. -- (Maniac64 at work) Guns don't kill people, Kinder eggs do. I saw it in a post on GameFAQs. ~FAHtastic </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
voltch 02/17/12 12:09:00 PM #282:	not enough RKK talk. -- Dr voltchball - best in the world. <cite>voltch posted [p:794411] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> not enough RKK talk. -- Dr voltchball - best in the world. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
edwardsdv 02/17/12 12:16:00 PM #283:	From: JaKyL25 \| #280 I think WWE would have collectively pissed itself if May 2011 Mark Henry was more over than Randy Orton. This is personally why i would have found it amazing. What does Teddy do? Does he pretend orton won? Does he award it to Henry WHO KNOWS?!? -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? <cite>edwardsdv posted [p:794412] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> From: JaKyL25 \| #280I think WWE would have collectively pissed itself if May 2011 Mark Henry was more over than Randy Orton.This is personally why i would have found it amazing.What does Teddy do? Does he pretend orton won? Does he award it to Henry WHO KNOWS?!? -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.pngedwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 02/17/12 12:23:00 PM #284:	From: edwardsdv \| #283 This is personally why i would have found it amazing. What does Teddy do? Does he pretend orton won? Does he award it to Henry WHO KNOWS?!? TAG TEAM MATCH, obviously -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:794413] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> From: edwardsdv \| #283This is personally why i would have found it amazing.What does Teddy do? Does he pretend orton won? Does he award it to Henry WHO KNOWS?!?TAG TEAM MATCH, obviously -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dark_Spiral 02/17/12 12:29:00 PM #285:	A) It was never in doubt - they established that absolutely nothing Christian did would ever be enough to win, and Orton merely had to hit one RKO (which he can do at any point, no matter how much abuse he's taken) and he'd win. The matches were great, but it basically set it up so that if Christian actually won with anything short of having three other guys join in to help him, it would feel like a plot hole. Well when he went heel he had two-three other heels try to help him beat up Orton. RKO to everyone. <cite>Dark_Spiral posted [p:794414] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> A) It was never in doubt - they established that absolutely nothing Christian did would ever be enough to win, and Orton merely had to hit one RKO (which he can do at any point, no matter how much abuse he's taken) and he'd win. The matches were great, but it basically set it up so that if Christian actually won with anything short of having three other guys join in to help him, it would feel like a plot hole.Well when he went heel he had two-three other heels try to help him beat up Orton. RKO to everyone. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
XIII_rocks 02/17/12 1:03:00 PM #286:	I remember talking on the PWB about how I didn't like the direction Christian was going in post-Summerslam because of how cowardly and afraid of Orton he was being, threatening to sue WWE for putting them in a no DQ match together for example. I figured it didn't mesh at all with how he was acting even before the MitB match where at the contract signing he was still saying "I believe I can beat you, Randy, even if nobody else thinks I can". Then in the middle of my diatribe I realized that any idea that he could beat Orton left him in the middle of that match, because that's when he played his most underhanded card, causing the eventual DQ. So yeah Jakyl is spot-on with his posts there, but I think he still thought he could win until Orton kicked out of Killswitch at MitB, did his 5mod and started pounding the ground. Which is why Christian didn't think he stood a chance at SS until he got Edge in his corner. ofc the fact that Orton killed him after he lost his title didn't help >_> -- XIII_rocks, the cream of XIII fanboyism. <cite>XIII_rocks posted [p:794415] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> I remember talking on the PWB about how I didn't like the direction Christian was going in post-Summerslam because of how cowardly and afraid of Orton he was being, threatening to sue WWE for putting them in a no DQ match together for example. I figured it didn't mesh at all with how he was acting even before the MitB match where at the contract signing he was still saying "I believe I can beat you, Randy, even if nobody else thinks I can".Then in the middle of my diatribe I realized that any idea that he could beat Orton left him in the middle of that match, because that's when he played his most underhanded card, causing the eventual DQ.So yeah Jakyl is spot-on with his posts there, but I think he still thought he could win until Orton kicked out of Killswitch at MitB, did his 5mod and started pounding the ground. Which is why Christian didn't think he stood a chance at SS until he got Edge in his corner. ofc the fact that Orton killed him after he lost his title didn't help >_> -- XIII_rocks, the cream of XIII fanboyism. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dark_Spiral 02/17/12 1:08:00 PM #287:	A) It was never in doubt - they established that absolutely nothing Christian did would ever be enough to win, and Orton merely had to hit one RKO (which he can do at any point, no matter how much abuse he's taken) and he'd win. The matches were great, but it basically set it up so that if Christian actually won with anything short of having three other guys join in to help him, it would feel like a plot hole. Agree with this. Initially it seemed as though despite Orton being stronger, Christian had the desire to become champion that could have given him the edge. It was just as the feud went on Orton became more and more Cena like that it became obvious Christian had no chance, even when he went heel. That's where the feud ceased to be a feud and was just about Orton's validation as champion.(Not that he'd needed any.) <cite>Dark_Spiral posted [p:794416] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> A) It was never in doubt - they established that absolutely nothing Christian did would ever be enough to win, and Orton merely had to hit one RKO (which he can do at any point, no matter how much abuse he's taken) and he'd win. The matches were great, but it basically set it up so that if Christian actually won with anything short of having three other guys join in to help him, it would feel like a plot hole.Agree with this. Initially it seemed as though despite Orton being stronger, Christian had the desire to become champion that could have given him the edge. It was just as the feud went on Orton became more and more Cena like that it became obvious Christian had no chance, even when he went heel. That's where the feud ceased to be a feud and was just about Orton's validation as champion.(Not that he'd needed any.) </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lopen 02/17/12 1:09:00 PM #288:	I dunno. To me Jakyl's interpretation of the story is just something you buy into as good if you really liked the feud because of the matches and want to argue that it was a good story just for the sake of it. You cannot possibly claim that was interesting storytelling-- as I said it was "Saturday morning cartoon" fare-- and personally I don't think that was so much the intended path of the story when it was put on paper as much as the consequence of the WWE being overly protective of how they book Orton. -- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love! <cite>Lopen posted [p:794417] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> I dunno. To me Jakyl's interpretation of the story is just something you buy into as good if you really liked the feud because of the matches and want to argue that it was a good story just for the sake of it. You cannot possibly claim that was interesting storytelling-- as I said it was "Saturday morning cartoon" fare-- and personally I don't think that was so much the intended path of the story when it was put on paper as much as the consequence of the WWE being overly protective of how they book Orton. -- No problem!This is a cute and pop genocide of love! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
edwardsdv 02/17/12 2:11:00 PM #289:	oh yeah, and feud of the year 2011 does go hands down to Punk/Cena-- nothing else is even close. In that second tier you have Orton/Christian and Edwards/Richards, both based on sheer match quality and Roode/Styles and the break-up of fortune just due to how great it was for that to finally be over. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? <cite>edwardsdv posted [p:794418] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> oh yeah, and feud of the year 2011 does go hands down to Punk/Cena-- nothing else is even close.In that second tier you have Orton/Christian and Edwards/Richards, both based on sheer match quality and Roode/Styles and the break-up of fortune just due to how great it was for that to finally be over. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.pngedwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 02/17/12 2:22:00 PM #290:	Briscoes/ANX is also in that second tier. The only real issue there is that you would never know ANX won the feud if you missed Death Before Dishonor. It FEELS like the Briscoes won, and they really didn't! From: Lopen \| #288 To me Jakyl's interpretation of the story is just something you buy into as good if you really liked the feud because of the matches and want to argue that it was a good story just for the sake of it. Little old me filling in the storyline gaps WWE refuses to flesh out with the most reasonable subtext I can muster? Surely you jest. <_<; -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:794419] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> Briscoes/ANX is also in that second tier. The only real issue there is that you would never know ANX won the feud if you missed Death Before Dishonor. It FEELS like the Briscoes won, and they really didn't!From: Lopen \| #288To me Jakyl's interpretation of the story is just something you buy into as good if you really liked the feud because of the matches and want to argue that it was a good story just for the sake of it.Little old me filling in the storyline gaps WWE refuses to flesh out with the most reasonable subtext I can muster? Surely you jest. <_<; -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 02/17/12 2:24:00 PM #291:	Kassius Ohno @KassiusOhno FCW show in Eustis, FL tonight. I guess @TrueKofi is gonna be there. Someone should prolly tell him I'm not fond of the last name Kingston -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:794420] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> Kassius Ohno @KassiusOhnoFCW show in Eustis, FL tonight. I guess @TrueKofi is gonna be there. Someone should prolly tell him I'm not fond of the last name Kingston -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
voltch 02/17/12 2:34:00 PM #292:	Eddie's OWNING in UWF. -- Dr voltchball - best in the world. <cite>voltch posted [p:794421] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> Eddie's OWNING in UWF. -- Dr voltchball - best in the world. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
RL5 02/17/12 2:54:00 PM #293:	From: Lopen \| #288 I dunno. To me Jakyl's interpretation of the story is just something you buy into as good if you really liked the feud because of the matches and want to argue that it was a good story just for the sake of it. You cannot possibly claim that was interesting storytelling-- as I said it was "Saturday morning cartoon" fare-- and personally I don't think that was so much the intended path of the story when it was put on paper as much as the consequence of the WWE being overly protective of how they book Orton. It's possible that's not how they intended the story, but that's how it came out to me even before reading JaKyL's posts. And it's really not "Saturday Morning Cartoon" fare. Not that there's anything wrong with Saturday Morning Cartoons, mind you. But this was a deconstruction of the World Championship, and of the heel turn, whether intended or not. JaKyL basically said everything I was thinking about it already. It's not "you're the bad guy so you're pathetic." It's a very real situation. Some people, when faced with the idea that they're not as good as they thought they were at something, try to better themselves, while others take the easy way out. If that's not what you got from the story, then yeah, you're probably going to just see it as a really boring and predictable series of matches. -- Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5205/bananase.png <cite>RL5 posted [p:794422] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> From: Lopen \| #288I dunno. To me Jakyl's interpretation of the story is just something you buy into as good if you really liked the feud because of the matches and want to argue that it was a good story just for the sake of it. You cannot possibly claim that was interesting storytelling-- as I said it was "Saturday morning cartoon" fare-- and personally I don't think that was so much the intended path of the story when it was put on paper as much as the consequence of the WWE being overly protective of how they book Orton.It's possible that's not how they intended the story, but that's how it came out to me even before reading JaKyL's posts.And it's really not "Saturday Morning Cartoon" fare. Not that there's anything wrong with Saturday Morning Cartoons, mind you. But this was a deconstruction of the World Championship, and of the heel turn, whether intended or not. JaKyL basically said everything I was thinking about it already. It's not "you're the bad guy so you're pathetic." It's a very real situation. Some people, when faced with the idea that they're not as good as they thought they were at something, try to better themselves, while others take the easy way out.If that's not what you got from the story, then yeah, you're probably going to just see it as a really boring and predictable series of matches. -- Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Policehttp://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5205/bananase.png </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lopen 02/17/12 3:04:00 PM #294:	Some people, when faced with the idea that they're not as good as they thought they were at something, try to better themselves, while others take the easy way out. And if you were really attempting to tell this story, you would have it go exactly as I had it, where Orton's rage actually comes to hurt him and he has to better himself, and it pays off to a greater extent in the long run than Christian's cheap tricks. The story doesn't give that message-- you've got no evidence of the "try to better themselves" part actually paying, just that cheap tricks don't. Telling the story with only one side does pretty much make it out to "good guy > bad guy and the bad guy is pathetic always." And keep in mind I wasn't really trying to bash Saturday morning cartoons either-- I'm just saying their stories are pretty simple and nothing to strive for. Though, in fact a lot of them were better at storytelling than Orton vs Christian, in that the good guy will actually seem to be in peril at some point from time to time <_< -- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love! <cite>Lopen posted [p:794423] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> Some people, when faced with the idea that they're not as good as they thought they were at something, try to better themselves, while others take the easy way out.And if you were really attempting to tell this story, you would have it go exactly as I had it, where Orton's rage actually comes to hurt him and he has to better himself, and it pays off to a greater extent in the long run than Christian's cheap tricks. The story doesn't give that message-- you've got no evidence of the "try to better themselves" part actually paying, just that cheap tricks don't. Telling the story with only one side does pretty much make it out to "good guy > bad guy and the bad guy is pathetic always."And keep in mind I wasn't really trying to bash Saturday morning cartoons either-- I'm just saying their stories are pretty simple and nothing to strive for. Though, in fact a lot of them were better at storytelling than Orton vs Christian, in that the good guy will actually seem to be in peril at some point from time to time <_< -- No problem!This is a cute and pop genocide of love! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TimJab 02/17/12 3:07:00 PM #295:	so why is santino in the chamber? -- http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6782/timj1.png <cite>TimJab posted [p:794424] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> so why is santino in the chamber? -- http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6782/timj1.png </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lopen 02/17/12 3:08:00 PM #296:	Because spoiler tags are great -- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love! <cite>Lopen posted [p:794425] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> Because spoiler tags are great -- No problem!This is a cute and pop genocide of love! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
voltch 02/17/12 3:10:00 PM #297:	So when is Jakyl hosting the new Save my hardcore champion? -- Dr voltchball - best in the world. <cite>voltch posted [p:794426] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> So when is Jakyl hosting the new Save my hardcore champion? -- Dr voltchball - best in the world. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
RL5 02/17/12 3:15:00 PM #298:	From: Lopen \| #294 And if you were really attempting to tell this story, you would have it go exactly as I had it, where Orton's rage actually comes to hurt him and he has to better himself, and it pays off to a greater extent in the long run than Christian's cheap tricks. The story doesn't give that message-- you've got no evidence of the "try to better themselves" part actually paying, just that cheap tricks don't. Telling the story with only one side does pretty much make it out to "good guy > bad guy and the bad guy is pathetic always." But that's the thing. If Orton has to better himself, then Christian stops being clearly not as good as Orton, which is what the story is about. It's about how Christian just is not as good as Orton, and how instead of accepting that and working to improve himself, he keeps making excuses and trying to take the easy way out. If Orton looks vulnerable after Christian starts taking the easy way out, then Christian's taking the easy way out actually helped him, and had more or less the same effect as if he'd actually accepted the losses and tried to improve himself. -- Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police http://i53.tinypic.com/2hpufbd.png <cite>RL5 posted [p:794427] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> From: Lopen \| #294And if you were really attempting to tell this story, you would have it go exactly as I had it, where Orton's rage actually comes to hurt him and he has to better himself, and it pays off to a greater extent in the long run than Christian's cheap tricks. The story doesn't give that message-- you've got no evidence of the "try to better themselves" part actually paying, just that cheap tricks don't. Telling the story with only one side does pretty much make it out to "good guy > bad guy and the bad guy is pathetic always."But that's the thing. If Orton has to better himself, then Christian stops being clearly not as good as Orton, which is what the story is about. It's about how Christian just is not as good as Orton, and how instead of accepting that and working to improve himself, he keeps making excuses and trying to take the easy way out. If Orton looks vulnerable after Christian starts taking the easy way out, then Christian's taking the easy way out actually helped him, and had more or less the same effect as if he'd actually accepted the losses and tried to improve himself. -- Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Policehttp://i53.tinypic.com/2hpufbd.png </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lopen 02/17/12 3:22:00 PM #299:	That's not actually how it works at all, though. Because Christian using dirty tricks to be "as good as Orton" is a mirage. They're not useful tricks against any other opponent as much as a weakness of Orton, so once it's all said and done Christian has used dirty tricks and abuse of Orton's character flaws to get on top but not actually improved his skills, whereas Orton has bettered himself to overcome his flaws. Net result is that Orton leaves the feud stronger than he was coming in, stronger than Christian ever was. The end result of the story in that case is Christian has made his worst enemy Orton stronger rather than making himself so-- and if he would've just done what Orton did and tried to better himself rather than using cheap tricks, he might've come out on top. But instead he used the cheap way out and his ultimate prize was to make his nemesis stronger. Much better story. -- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love! <cite>Lopen posted [p:794428] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> That's not actually how it works at all, though. Because Christian using dirty tricks to be "as good as Orton" is a mirage. They're not useful tricks against any other opponent as much as a weakness of Orton, so once it's all said and done Christian has used dirty tricks and abuse of Orton's character flaws to get on top but not actually improved his skills, whereas Orton has bettered himself to overcome his flaws. Net result is that Orton leaves the feud stronger than he was coming in, stronger than Christian ever was. The end result of the story in that case is Christian has made his worst enemy Orton stronger rather than making himself so-- and if he would've just done what Orton did and tried to better himself rather than using cheap tricks, he might've come out on top. But instead he used the cheap way out and his ultimate prize was to make his nemesis stronger.Much better story. -- No problem!This is a cute and pop genocide of love! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TimJab 02/17/12 3:24:00 PM #300:	From: Lopen \| #296 Because spoiler tags are great wait has that not happened yet? i just checked to see if the PPV was this weekend and it said he was in -- http://www.thejetsblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/himommangold_thumb.jpg <cite>TimJab posted [p:794429] in All-Purpos... [t:61958236]...</cite> <quote> From: Lopen \| #296Because spoiler tags are greatwait has that not happened yet?i just checked to see if the PPV was this weekend and it said he was in -- http://www.thejetsblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/himommangold_thumb.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 172: Steiner, Dutt, and Magnus walk into India... (+) Yeah! (+)

Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 172: Steiner, Dutt, and Magnus walk into India...