Board 8 > Trayvon Martin has NOTHING to do with the "stand your ground" doctrine [dwmf]

(+) Yeah! (+)

From: SmartMuffin | #149
More guns, less crime. The evidence is indisputable.

Trayvon's death is a crime.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=] < http://img.imgcake.com/sbellcardjpgub.jpg

From: SBell0105 | #151
Trayvon's death is a crime.

Literally using one data point to make a case.

http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493660/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332727982&sr=8-1

--
SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Muffin, I think I misspoke earlier. Self-defense is an affirmative defense, meaning the burden is on the defendant to produce evidence supporting it. Which makes sense, because otherwise it'd be just about impossible to ever convict anyone of murder. Florida's law does create a few categories where the defendant is presumed to have a valid self-defense defense- such as if he was in his house and it was broken into, for example. Unfortunately for Zimmerman, none of them apply in this case, so he's stuck with the burden of producing evidence. And the circumstantial evidence looks really bad for him.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

I'm not sure if everyone is aware that they're waiting on me to offer the evidence. I have it and I've just been sitting on it.

--
Connecticut Huskies

After being beaten to the ground by Towering Black Football Player Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman reluctantly pulls the trigger in self-defense. Martin falls back and lets loose a mighty African laugh. "So it begins!" he cries (translated from thug language).

The transponder on his wrist contacts the White House, where Operation Caliphate sits waiting.

"Your majesty," cries an aide (likely homosexual), "Agent Martin, codenamed Fire of Allah, has completed his mission!"

Imam Hussein Obama clasps his hands and smirks, a "jazz cigarette" in his mouth. "And now the honkies will pay."

this is the reality of SmartMuffin

--
You know who's sexy? Black Turtle, the 2010 Games Contest Guru Winner, that's who!

Jack McCoy would have all the evidence he needs to send Zimmerman away for life.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=] < http://img.imgcake.com/sbellcardjpgub.jpg

Jack Bauer would have tortured the truth out of Zimmerman by now.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=] < http://img.imgcake.com/sbellcardjpgub.jpg

Jack Shephard would have saved Trayvon's life.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=] < http://img.imgcake.com/sbellcardjpgub.jpg

Self-defense is an affirmative defense, meaning the burden is on the defendant to produce evidence supporting it.

Are you sure? Even in Florida? The evidence Zimmerman offers it the fact that he was beaten and bloodied, and the one witness who claims Martin was winning the fight. The witness is presumably a neutral party, and not someone obviously biased, like say, Martin's girlfriend.

There's also the question of motive. The two didn't know each other. There is zero evidence of Zimmerman being some crazy racist who hates black people, with plenty of evidence that he's NOT that.

If you're right though, then perhaps an arrest is justified. But if you're right, then that would mean that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to get off on self-defense unless there was literally a witness who saw the whole encounter and could back you up, wouldn't it?

--
SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

... ya know, since Smuffin lives in a fantasy world, i just figured...

--
(\__/)
(='.'=] < http://img.imgcake.com/sbellcardjpgub.jpg

From: SmartMuffin | #159
There's also the question of motive. The two didn't know each other. There is zero evidence of Zimmerman being some crazy racist who hates black people, with plenty of evidence that he's NOT that.

There doesn't need to be motive for the shooting, only motive for mixing it up with Martin, which he did have motive for.

--
Connecticut Huskies

From: Leebo86 | #161
There doesn't need to be motive for the shooting, only motive for mixing it up with Martin, which he did have motive for.

No, there needs to be motive for the crime. At least if you're going to charge him with murder. I suppose "motive for a physical altercation" might be sufficient for a manslaughter conviction. Maybe.

--
SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

From: SmartMuffin | #162
No, there needs to be motive for the crime. At least if you're going to charge him with murder. I suppose "motive for a physical altercation" might be sufficient for a manslaughter conviction. Maybe.

If the shooting wasn't justified because he started the physical altercation it has to be SOMETHING, right?

--
Connecticut Huskies

Stay classy, UT student paper



--
You know who's sexy? Black Turtle, the 2010 Games Contest Guru Winner, that's who!

From: Leebo86 | #163
If the shooting wasn't justified because he started the physical altercation it has to be SOMETHING, right?

Let's say that Zimmerman started the physical aspect by simply attempting to restrain Martin in a bearhug or something, and Martin responded by beating the ever-loving crap out of him, and Zimmerman eventually shot him. I'd say that's manslaughter myself, but I'm no expert there!

--
SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

From: SmartMuffin | #165
beating the ever-loving crap out of him

Zimmerman walked away, right? He wasn't hospitalized, right? Let's not exaggerate what Martin did to him.

--
Connecticut Huskies

Are you sure? Even in Florida? The evidence Zimmerman offers it the fact that he was beaten and bloodied, and the one witness who claims Martin was winning the fight. The witness is presumably a neutral party, and not someone obviously biased, like say, Martin's girlfriend.

Here's the Florida statute. It creates a few categories where the reasonable fear necessary for self-defense is presumed, so the burden of production is automatically satisfied, but Zimmerman's case doesn't fall into any of them.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

There's also the question of motive. The two didn't know each other. There is zero evidence of Zimmerman being some crazy racist who hates black people, with plenty of evidence that he's NOT that.

This hurts Zimmerman. The situation he needs us to believe is that he followed Martin and spoke to him, did not try to place him under arrest or restrain him from leaving or do anything else. And Martin then attacked him. Why? What motive would he possibly have for that?

Zimmerman on the other hand had a clear motive- to stop a crime in his neighborhood. He said as much himself.

But if you're right, then that would mean that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to get off on self-defense unless there was literally a witness who saw the whole encounter and could back you up, wouldn't it?

For an affirmative defense, you have the burden of producing evidence but not the burden of proof. It's kind of an odd rule, but that's what it is. Zimmerman doesn't have to prove his affirmative defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

For an affirmative defense, you have the burden of producing evidence but not the burden of proof. It's kind of an odd rule, but that's what it is. Zimmerman doesn't have to prove his affirmative defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

I wonder... presumably they did an autopsy on Martin, right? I wonder if HE had any signs of a physical altercation at all, if he was beaten or bloodied or whatever. That would probably be relevant, yes?

--
SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

We know they tested him for drugs and alcohol, but I haven't heard about an autopsy. The cause of death was presumably obvious, but perhaps there are photos from the scene.

--
Connecticut Huskies

From: SmartMuffin | #165
I'd say that's manslaughter myself, but I'm no expert there!

In states such as Florida, manslaughter is not broken down this way. In Florida, manslaughter, defined as: The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder . . . is a second degree felony punishable by up to 15 years in state prison regardless of whether the act may have been intentional or not.[2] If manslaughter is committed upon a child via culpable negligence under FL statute 827.03(3), then the crime is aggravated manslaughter of a child which is a first degree felony punishable by up to 30 years in state prison

Sounds like Aggravated Manslaughter to me.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=] < http://img.imgcake.com/sbellcardjpgub.jpg

I wonder... presumably they did an autopsy on Martin, right? I wonder if HE had any signs of a physical altercation at all, if he was beaten or bloodied or whatever. That would probably be relevant, yes?

If it showed something about how the fight started, yeah. Unfortunately the witness who said that Martin was winning the fight and Zimmerman's injuries don't show anything about how it started.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-friend-20120328,0,2012044.story

--
SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

So... it's a story about how he was nice to someone? I thought it was going to be an account of how one of his 911 calls stopped a burglary or something, which I've heard had happened at least once.

--
Connecticut Huskies

This would literally have been forgotten by now if Zimmerman wasn't part white.

--
http://img.imgcake.com/1284175205700jpghe.jpg

Have you guys seen the video of him being led into the police station? He doesn't look too shabby.

--
Connecticut Huskies

Leebo86 posted...
Have you guys seen the video of him being led into the police station? He doesn't look too shabby.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897

--
l 1 l l 10 l l 7 l l 12 l l 9 l l 19 l

"Okay, fine. Let’s assume Trayvon Martin didn’t attack George Zimmerman. Does that make him any less black?"

--
These colors don't run.
[NO BARKLEY NO PEACE]