Board 8 > Trayvon Martin has NOTHING to do with the "stand your ground" doctrine [dwmf]

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OmarsComin 03/25/12 1:07:00 AM #51:	I'm gonna go mentor two black children today! -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npHDxSvwCE0 <cite>OmarsComin posted [p:942798] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> I'm gonna go mentor two black children today! -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npHDxSvwCE0 </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/25/12 1:12:00 AM #52:	And while I obviously haven't seen all the evidence, I'm not too sympathetic to Zimmerman here, and I usually am to defendants in general. The facts are that he shot and killed an unarmed kid who was not committing any crime. Before you pull the trigger to take someone's life you had better be careful about what you are doing. I find the reasonableness standard quite fair here. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:942799] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> And while I obviously haven't seen all the evidence, I'm not too sympathetic to Zimmerman here, and I usually am to defendants in general. The facts are that he shot and killed an unarmed kid who was not committing any crime. Before you pull the trigger to take someone's life you had better be careful about what you are doing. I find the reasonableness standard quite fair here. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Pacmantis 03/25/12 2:30:00 AM #53:	*SmartMuffin posted...* and obviously one or both of those black children betrayed him and now he's killing other black children as an act of vengeance. Yes, I forgot to mention that Zimmerman is a Sith lord. We all know about your pro-sith beliefs. -- Muglekoopo14 Wakka wakka wakka consumes you <cite>Pacmantis posted [p:942800] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> SmartMuffin posted...and obviously one or both of those black children betrayed him and now he's killing other black children as an act of vengeance.Yes, I forgot to mention that Zimmerman is a Sith lord.We all know about your pro-sith beliefs. -- Muglekoopo14Wakka wakka wakka consumes you </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/25/12 3:19:00 AM #54:	Only the Jedi deal in absolutes. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:942801] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> Only the Jedi deal in absolutes. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Leebo86 03/25/12 4:59:00 AM #55:	From: SmartMuffin \| #046 * Witnesses reported seeing a struggle, and at one point Martin was on top of Zimmerman. * Zimmerman was bloodied and had grass stains on him. * The police didn't "just let him go," they interrogated him for several hours and decided his story fleshed out with the witnesses and 911 tapes. * Zimmerman has previously volunteered as a mentor for two black children. The first 2 points don't really prove self-defense, they just suggest that he didn't just... shoot Martin in the back or something. The police weren't thorough, regardless of how long he was held. They didn't even check Martin's cell phone, or they would have known that he was talking to his girlfriend at the time of the incident. -- Connecticut Huskies <cite>Leebo86 posted [p:942802] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> From: SmartMuffin \| #046* Witnesses reported seeing a struggle, and at one point Martin was on top of Zimmerman.* Zimmerman was bloodied and had grass stains on him.* The police didn't "just let him go," they interrogated him for several hours and decided his story fleshed out with the witnesses and 911 tapes.* Zimmerman has previously volunteered as a mentor for two black children.The first 2 points don't really prove self-defense, they just suggest that he didn't just... shoot Martin in the back or something.The police weren't thorough, regardless of how long he was held. They didn't even check Martin's cell phone, or they would have known that he was talking to his girlfriend at the time of the incident. -- Connecticut Huskies </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/25/12 6:25:00 AM #56:	Also,presumably there is more evidence than you are stating here What are you making that presumption on? Would you care to list the "more evidence"? As far as I can tell, really the ONLY evidence against Zimmerman is that he disobeyed the dispatcher's instructions to not pursue. From that, you can POSSIBLY infer that he could very well have been the one who started the physical confrontation, but barring any eyewitness testimony, it's impossible to know for sure. The police weren't thorough, regardless of how long he was held. They didn't even check Martin's cell phone, or they would have known that he was talking to his girlfriend at the time of the incident. No, he was talking to his girlfriend BEFORE the incident. Presumably he was not casually chatting her up as Martin and Zimmerman were engaged in a physical confrontation, which is something that absolutely no witness testimony denies. I fail to see how his cell phone is relevant here. I'm not racist, my best friend is black! Well, there are obviously degrees of racism here. People aren't alleging that Zimmerman is racist in the "occasionally makes jokes about fried chicken" sense but in the "he intentionally set up an elaborate scheme to murder someone solely because of their skin color" sense. I would think it is a legitimate question to ask, if someone was really THAT racist, why would they have black friends? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:942803] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> Also,presumably there is more evidence than you are stating hereWhat are you making that presumption on? Would you care to list the "more evidence"? As far as I can tell, really the ONLY evidence against Zimmerman is that he disobeyed the dispatcher's instructions to not pursue. From that, you can POSSIBLY infer that he could very well have been the one who started the physical confrontation, but barring any eyewitness testimony, it's impossible to know for sure.The police weren't thorough, regardless of how long he was held. They didn't even check Martin's cell phone, or they would have known that he was talking to his girlfriend at the time of the incident.No, he was talking to his girlfriend BEFORE the incident. Presumably he was not casually chatting her up as Martin and Zimmerman were engaged in a physical confrontation, which is something that absolutely no witness testimony denies. I fail to see how his cell phone is relevant here.I'm not racist, my best friend is black!Well, there are obviously degrees of racism here. People aren't alleging that Zimmerman is racist in the "occasionally makes jokes about fried chicken" sense but in the "he intentionally set up an elaborate scheme to murder someone solely because of their skin color" sense. I would think it is a legitimate question to ask, if someone was really THAT racist, why would they have black friends? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
OmarsComin 03/25/12 6:37:00 AM #57:	so he's like half white right white enough for me racism confirmed -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npHDxSvwCE0 <cite>OmarsComin posted [p:942804] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> so he's like half white rightwhite enough for meracism confirmed -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npHDxSvwCE0 </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MonkClive0 03/25/12 7:11:00 AM #58:	isn't zimmerman like five foot even? he should of been wary of performing a citizen's arrest on any black male that wasn't in pre-school -- These colors don't run. [NO BARKLEY NO PEACE] <cite>MonkClive0 posted [p:942805] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> isn't zimmerman like five foot even? he should of been wary of performing a citizen's arrest on any black male that wasn't in pre-school -- These colors don't run.[NO BARKLEY NO PEACE] </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/25/12 11:16:00 AM #59:	What are you making that presumption on? Would you care to list the "more evidence"? As far as I can tell, really the ONLY evidence against Zimmerman is that he disobeyed the dispatcher's instructions to not pursue. From that, you can POSSIBLY infer that he could very well have been the one who started the physical confrontation, but barring any eyewitness testimony, it's impossible to know for sure. If the prosecution presents no more evidence than what you listed, the jury should acquit. But once again, I think you are misunderstanding the rule. The prosecution does not have to show that Zimmerman did not honestly believe he was in danger. All they have to show is that it was unreasonable for him to believe he was in danger. And I don't think it will be too hard to show that, because he was not actually in danger. He had a weapon, Trayvon Martin did not. He initiated contact. Those are very strong facts against him. Again, if you are going to shoot someone, you had better be careful. If you are wrong, it's possible that you were still reasonable and didn't actually make a mistake, just were unlucky, but you're already in a pretty bad position. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:942806] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> What are you making that presumption on? Would you care to list the "more evidence"? As far as I can tell, really the ONLY evidence against Zimmerman is that he disobeyed the dispatcher's instructions to not pursue. From that, you can POSSIBLY infer that he could very well have been the one who started the physical confrontation, but barring any eyewitness testimony, it's impossible to know for sure.If the prosecution presents no more evidence than what you listed, the jury should acquit.But once again, I think you are misunderstanding the rule. The prosecution does not have to show that Zimmerman did not honestly believe he was in danger. All they have to show is that it was unreasonable for him to believe he was in danger.And I don't think it will be too hard to show that, because he was not actually in danger. He had a weapon, Trayvon Martin did not. He initiated contact. Those are very strong facts against him.Again, if you are going to shoot someone, you had better be careful. If you are wrong, it's possible that you were still reasonable and didn't actually make a mistake, just were unlucky, but you're already in a pretty bad position. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/25/12 11:18:00 AM #60:	Also, while you keep comparing him to a police officer, he was not a police officer. He faces a much harsher standard for discretion in use of force. As it should be, because I sure don't want ordinary citizens to be able to shoot me legally merely because they think I might attack them. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:942807] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> Also, while you keep comparing him to a police officer, he was not a police officer. He faces a much harsher standard for discretion in use of force. As it should be, because I sure don't want ordinary citizens to be able to shoot me legally merely because they think I might attack them. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Leebo86 03/25/12 11:32:00 AM #61:	From: SmartMuffin \| #056 No, he was talking to his girlfriend BEFORE the incident. Presumably he was not casually chatting her up as Martin and Zimmerman were engaged in a physical confrontation, which is something that absolutely no witness testimony denies. I fail to see how his cell phone is relevant here. The girlfriend says she heard Zimmerman yelling at Martin, so... uh... I would say she herself is a witness in a way. -- Connecticut Huskies <cite>Leebo86 posted [p:942808] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> From: SmartMuffin \| #056No, he was talking to his girlfriend BEFORE the incident. Presumably he was not casually chatting her up as Martin and Zimmerman were engaged in a physical confrontation, which is something that absolutely no witness testimony denies. I fail to see how his cell phone is relevant here.The girlfriend says she heard Zimmerman yelling at Martin, so... uh... I would say she herself is a witness in a way. -- Connecticut Huskies </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DeepsPraw 03/25/12 3:11:00 PM #62:	How convenient for witness testimony and evidence against Trayvon to surface this late. Oh well, they've got to be legit, right, it's not like the Sanford PD is corrupt or anything oh wait http://www.wesh.com/news/26315994/detail.html -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the dog http://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg <cite>DeepsPraw posted [p:942809] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> How convenient for witness testimony and evidence against Trayvon to surface this late. Oh well, they've got to be legit, right, it's not like the Sanford PD is corrupt or anythingoh waithttp://www.wesh.com/news/26315994/detail.html -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the doghttp://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TimJab 03/25/12 3:26:00 PM #63:	From: DSAutoResponder \| #006 *red sox 777 posted...* Um, it's obvious that Zimmerman won't get off by claiming he was standing his ground. Unless we have a very gullible jury anyway. really hope this isn't a casey anthony reference -- Also even I have to give the Rangers credit right now. They're better than we are. - ExThaNemesis <cite>TimJab posted [p:942810] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> From: DSAutoResponder \| #006red sox 777 posted...Um, it's obvious that Zimmerman won't get off by claiming he was standing his ground. Unless we have a very gullible jury anyway.really hope this isn't a casey anthony reference -- Also even I have to give the Rangers credit right now. They're better than we are. - ExThaNemesis </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/25/12 6:30:00 PM #64:	From: red sox 777 \| #060 Also, while you keep comparing him to a police officer, he was not a police officer. He faces a much harsher standard for discretion in use of force. As it should be, because I sure don't want ordinary citizens to be able to shoot me legally merely because they think I might attack them. But you're okay with the cops being able to do that? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:942811] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> From: red sox 777 \| #060Also, while you keep comparing him to a police officer, he was not a police officer. He faces a much harsher standard for discretion in use of force. As it should be, because I sure don't want ordinary citizens to be able to shoot me legally merely because they think I might attack them.But you're okay with the cops being able to do that? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/25/12 6:42:00 PM #65:	whaddya know http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012 -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:942812] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> whaddya knowhttp://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012 -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Ashethan 03/25/12 6:42:00 PM #66:	I wouldn't want police officers shooting me or otherwise causing me bodily harm because they think I might attack them. Much less than if it were a regular citizen, actually. Because with a regular citizen, there's always the chance a cop comes by to help you, or other citizens. Or you might have time to react. -- See You In Another Life, Brother. God, too busy to help the broncos on Sundays, gave them Manning <cite>Ashethan posted [p:942813] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> I wouldn't want police officers shooting me or otherwise causing me bodily harm because they think I might attack them. Much less than if it were a regular citizen, actually. Because with a regular citizen, there's always the chance a cop comes by to help you, or other citizens. Or you might have time to react. -- See You In Another Life, Brother.God, too busy to help the broncos on Sundays, gave them Manning </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/25/12 7:08:00 PM #67:	But you're okay with the cops being able to do that? Nope, but I'd sure rather have 1% of the population able to do that than 100%. Also, cops should get some more deference because it is easier to hold them accountable, but we don't even need to go that far for this one. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:942814] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> But you're okay with the cops being able to do that?Nope, but I'd sure rather have 1% of the population able to do that than 100%. Also, cops should get some more deference because it is easier to hold them accountable, but we don't even need to go that far for this one. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Leebo86 03/25/12 9:47:00 PM #68:	I still kind of want to hear Zimmerman explain why Martin deserved to die, even if he was about to waterboard him with the iced tea. -- Connecticut Huskies <cite>Leebo86 posted [p:942815] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> I still kind of want to hear Zimmerman explain why Martin deserved to die, even if he was about to waterboard him with the iced tea. -- Connecticut Huskies </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ExThaNemesis 03/25/12 9:54:00 PM #69:	From: SmartMuffin \| #065 whaddya know http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012 lmfao you are so beyond help at this point. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg 'I am the master of your whole keep. I am the pastor, flock ya like sheep.' <cite>ExThaNemesis posted [p:942816] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> From: SmartMuffin \| #065whaddya knowhttp://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012lmfao you are so beyond help at this point. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg'I am the master of your whole keep. I am the pastor, flock ya like sheep.' </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Leebo86 03/25/12 9:55:00 PM #70:	Here's the other thing. The fact that if at some point Martin may have been "winning" the fight doesn't exonerate Zimmerman if Zimmerman started the fight. -- Connecticut Huskies <cite>Leebo86 posted [p:942817] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> Here's the other thing. The fact that if at some point Martin may have been "winning" the fight doesn't exonerate Zimmerman if Zimmerman started the fight. -- Connecticut Huskies </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MalcolmMasher 03/25/12 10:24:00 PM #71:	...because I sure don't want ordinary citizens to be able to shoot me legally merely because they think I might attack them. But you're okay with the cops being able to do that? I don't want ordinary citizens to be able to hang me simply because a majority of them think I'm guilty of some crime. I'm OK with a judge and jury having that power. (A massive oversimplification of the justice system, I admit.) -- I don't like this duchy. Now, it's an adventurer. <cite>MalcolmMasher posted [p:942818] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> ...because I sure don't want ordinary citizens to be able to shoot me legally merely because they think I might attack them.But you're okay with the cops being able to do that?I don't want ordinary citizens to be able to hang me simply because a majority of them think I'm guilty of some crime. I'm OK with a judge and jury having that power. (A massive oversimplification of the justice system, I admit.) -- I don't like this duchy. Now, it's an adventurer. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DeepsPraw 03/25/12 10:40:00 PM #72:	[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster] <cite>DeepsPraw posted [p:942819] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> [This message was deleted at the request of the original poster] </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DeepsPraw 03/25/12 10:43:00 PM #73:	*SmartMuffin posted...* whaddya know http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012 Wow how convenient that such a clear testimony would only come out now. Where was this witness a week ago when the other witnesses came forward? *MalcolmMasher posted...* I don't want ordinary citizens to be able to hang me simply because a majority of them think I'm guilty of some crime. What. Nothing gives citizens the right to lynch someone. -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the dog http://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg <cite>DeepsPraw posted [p:942820] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> SmartMuffin posted...whaddya knowhttp://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012Wow how convenient that such a clear testimony would only come out now. Where was this witness a week ago when the other witnesses came forward?MalcolmMasher posted...I don't want ordinary citizens to be able to hang me simply because a majority of them think I'm guilty of some crime. What. Nothing gives citizens the right to lynch someone. -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the doghttp://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MalcolmMasher 03/25/12 10:56:00 PM #74:	What. Nothing gives citizens the right to lynch someone. And the difference between a lynching and a hanging is whether or not the justice system is in control, correct? -- I don't like this duchy. Now, it's an adventurer. <cite>MalcolmMasher posted [p:942821] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> What. Nothing gives citizens the right to lynch someone. And the difference between a lynching and a hanging is whether or not the justice system is in control, correct? -- I don't like this duchy. Now, it's an adventurer. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DeepsPraw 03/25/12 11:06:00 PM #75:	What are you even trying to say? That the public outcry about this case is a bad thing? Would you rather have the whole thing swept under the rug by a corrupt police department? This wouldn't even go to a judge and jury if the people didn't react the way they did. -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the dog http://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg <cite>DeepsPraw posted [p:942822] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> What are you even trying to say? That the public outcry about this case is a bad thing? Would you rather have the whole thing swept under the rug by a corrupt police department?This wouldn't even go to a judge and jury if the people didn't react the way they did. -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the doghttp://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MalcolmMasher 03/25/12 11:32:00 PM #76:	I'm not trying to say anything at all about this specific incident. If you would prefer a response which requires less interpretation, I will repost the context and then provide a lengthy but, I hope, clear reply. ...because I sure don't want ordinary citizens to be able to shoot me legally merely because they think I might attack them. But you're okay with the cops being able to do that? If a person is forced into a situation where they have two choices, "ready your firearm in case you need to defend yourself or others" and "retreat", "retreat" is generally preferable because it is less likely to result in the loss of human life. So the first option should only be chosen when there is a very, very good reason to choose it. "I am a police officer and it is my job to deal with this" may not be a sufficient reason by itself, but it is a good start. In addition, although both hypothetical individuals have had to meet some kind of standard in order to hold the status we assume they have, I have no problems assuming that higher performance is required of someone who wants a badge than someone who merely wants a gun. In short, given a choice between "anyone armed that thinks you are dangerous can shoot you" and "any police officer that thinks you are dangerous can shoot you", I would prefer the latter by a significant margin. -- I don't like this duchy. Now, it's an adventurer. <cite>MalcolmMasher posted [p:942823] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> I'm not trying to say anything at all about this specific incident. If you would prefer a response which requires less interpretation, I will repost the context and then provide a lengthy but, I hope, clear reply....because I sure don't want ordinary citizens to be able to shoot me legally merely because they think I might attack them.But you're okay with the cops being able to do that?If a person is forced into a situation where they have two choices, "ready your firearm in case you need to defend yourself or others" and "retreat", "retreat" is generally preferable because it is less likely to result in the loss of human life. So the first option should only be chosen when there is a very, very good reason to choose it. "I am a police officer and it is my job to deal with this" may not be a sufficient reason by itself, but it is a good start. In addition, although both hypothetical individuals have had to meet some kind of standard in order to hold the status we assume they have, I have no problems assuming that higher performance is required of someone who wants a badge than someone who merely wants a gun.In short, given a choice between "anyone armed that thinks you are dangerous can shoot you" and "any police officer that thinks you are dangerous can shoot you", I would prefer the latter by a significant margin. -- I don't like this duchy. Now, it's an adventurer. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/26/12 6:51:00 AM #77:	From: Leebo86 \| #070 Here's the other thing. The fact that at some point Martin may have been "winning" the fight doesn't exonerate Zimmerman if Zimmerman started the fight. True, but we don't seem to have any witnesses of who started the fight. I love how everyone is like "gee smartmuffin you should just wait until we get additional evidence" then we get additional evidence that happens to benefit zimmerman and its all LOL THIS WITNESS IS OBVIOUSLY LYING WHY DIDNT THEY COME OUT SOONER -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:942824] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> From: Leebo86 \| #070Here's the other thing. The fact that at some point Martin may have been "winning" the fight doesn't exonerate Zimmerman if Zimmerman started the fight.True, but we don't seem to have any witnesses of who started the fight.I love how everyone is like "gee smartmuffin you should just wait until we get additional evidence"then we get additional evidence that happens to benefit zimmerman and its all LOL THIS WITNESS IS OBVIOUSLY LYING WHY DIDNT THEY COME OUT SOONER -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Leebo86 03/26/12 6:53:00 AM #78:	The question right now is "should Zimmerman be arrested?" He was told not to follow Martin. He did. Martin ended up dead. It needs to go to trial. -- Connecticut Huskies <cite>Leebo86 posted [p:942825] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> The question right now is "should Zimmerman be arrested?"He was told not to follow Martin. He did. Martin ended up dead. It needs to go to trial. -- Connecticut Huskies </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/26/12 3:16:00 PM #79:	He was told not to follow Martin. He did. The only real problem is, orders from 911 dispatchers are NOT legally binding in any way whatsoever. I think I posted the link to this story awhile back, but a couple months ago there was a woman who shot and killed an intruder to her house. She was on the phone with 911 and the dispatcher explicitly told her to put the gun down and to not fire and to wait for the police to show up." Eventually the guy busted through the door and she fired. He had been armed. The police showed about 10 minutes after that. She was also not arrested. Edit: So while the fact that Zimmerman pursued LOOKS BAD on him, it is not necessarily legally relevant. The simple fact of the matter is that it is perfectly legal to follow someone. If Zimmerman simply followed Martin and Martin ended up starting a physical confrontation, then Zimmerman is completely and totally within the bounds of the law. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:942826] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> He was told not to follow Martin. He did. The only real problem is, orders from 911 dispatchers are NOT legally binding in any way whatsoever. I think I posted the link to this story awhile back, but a couple months ago there was a woman who shot and killed an intruder to her house. She was on the phone with 911 and the dispatcher explicitly told her to put the gun down and to not fire and to wait for the police to show up." Eventually the guy busted through the door and she fired. He had been armed. The police showed about 10 minutes after that. She was also not arrested.Edit: So while the fact that Zimmerman pursued LOOKS BAD on him, it is not necessarily legally relevant. The simple fact of the matter is that it is perfectly legal to follow someone. If Zimmerman simply followed Martin and Martin ended up starting a physical confrontation, then Zimmerman is completely and totally within the bounds of the law. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MRNlCEWATCH 03/26/12 3:18:00 PM #80:	can board 8 just not talk about criminal justice and legal s* please its embarrassing -- no more mr. nice sess....hello mr. nice watch! somebody call the brinks truck! <cite>MRNlCEWATCH posted [p:942827] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> can board 8 just not talk about criminal justice and legal s* please its embarrassing -- no more mr. nice sess....hello mr. nice watch!somebody call the brinks truck! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
KingButz 03/26/12 3:22:00 PM #81:	In addition, the 911 dispatchers exact words were "You don't need to do that" Not "Don't do that" or "you shouldn't do that" So while it is probably right in hindsight that he shouldn't have done that, this fact is completely irrelevant. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/bokbokbokpngur.png Ok everyone this is Bartz so just remember. <cite>KingButz posted [p:942828] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> In addition, the 911 dispatchers exact words were "You don't need to do that"Not "Don't do that" or "you shouldn't do that"So while it is probably right in hindsight that he shouldn't have done that, this fact is completely irrelevant. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/bokbokbokpngur.pngOk everyone this is Bartz so just remember. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DeepsPraw 03/26/12 3:22:00 PM #82:	*SmartMuffin posted...* but a couple months ago there was a woman who shot and killed an intruder to her house. She was on the phone with 911 and the dispatcher explicitly told her to put the gun down and to not fire and to wait for the police to show up." Eventually the guy busted through the door and she fired. He had been armed. The police showed about 10 minutes after that. She was also not arrested. Now there's a legitimate self defense case. A little different than stalking a teen and being belligerent. The issue isn't that Zimmerman didn't follow orders, it's that he was being hostile. If Zimmerman simply followed Martin and Martin ended up starting a physical confrontation, then Zimmerman is completely and totally within the bounds of the law Now that's the ten dollar question, isn't it? -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the dog http://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg <cite>DeepsPraw posted [p:942829] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> SmartMuffin posted...but a couple months ago there was a woman who shot and killed an intruder to her house. She was on the phone with 911 and the dispatcher explicitly told her to put the gun down and to not fire and to wait for the police to show up." Eventually the guy busted through the door and she fired. He had been armed. The police showed about 10 minutes after that. She was also not arrested.Now there's a legitimate self defense case. A little different than stalking a teen and being belligerent. The issue isn't that Zimmerman didn't follow orders, it's that he was being hostile.If Zimmerman simply followed Martin and Martin ended up starting a physical confrontation, then Zimmerman is completely and totally within the bounds of the lawNow that's the ten dollar question, isn't it? -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the doghttp://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Leebo86 03/26/12 3:26:00 PM #83:	Guys, no one is saying it proves anything one way or the other or that it will get him convicted. It just shows that he had the intention of going after Martin even though there was no reason to. It needs to go to the grand jury. It needs to play out. -- Connecticut Huskies <cite>Leebo86 posted [p:942830] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> Guys, no one is saying it proves anything one way or the other or that it will get him convicted.It just shows that he had the intention of going after Martin even though there was no reason to. It needs to go to the grand jury. It needs to play out. -- Connecticut Huskies </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TimJab 03/26/12 3:27:00 PM #84:	citizens are only allowed to take action if the offense is "in fact committed" meaning they are 100% completely positive the offender perpetrated the crime. even if it's extremely likely, they can't legally take action without witnessing the act and being completely sure. and cops aren't allowed to shoot if they think the person is going to attack them, we're only allowed to shoot if the person is threatening the use of deadly physical force (they must be explicitly threatening you with something that is likely to kill you), and even then we're limited in some cases here's a fun fact: cops are not allowed to shoot at a moving vehicle or its occupants, even if the driver is attempting to run them over, unless somebody threatens deadly physical force through means other than the vehicle (ie pointing a gun out the window) i have no idea if any of this is relevant, i just scanned the topic and thought it might be at the very least, it's kind of interesting! -- TimCop courtesy of punny http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2826/timcop.png <cite>TimJab posted [p:942831] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> citizens are only allowed to take action if the offense is "in fact committed" meaning they are 100% completely positive the offender perpetrated the crime. even if it's extremely likely, they can't legally take action without witnessing the act and being completely sure.and cops aren't allowed to shoot if they think the person is going to attack them, we're only allowed to shoot if the person is threatening the use of deadly physical force (they must be explicitly threatening you with something that is likely to kill you), and even then we're limited in some caseshere's a fun fact: cops are not allowed to shoot at a moving vehicle or its occupants, even if the driver is attempting to run them over, unless somebody threatens deadly physical force through means other than the vehicle (ie pointing a gun out the window)i have no idea if any of this is relevant, i just scanned the topic and thought it might beat the very least, it's kind of interesting! -- TimCop courtesy of punny http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2826/timcop.png </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TimJab 03/26/12 3:27:00 PM #85:	psychic sig -- http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6967/timfavre.png <cite>TimJab posted [p:942832] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> psychic sig -- http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6967/timfavre.png </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MRNlCEWATCH 03/26/12 3:29:00 PM #86:	*TimJab posted...* citizens are only allowed to take action if the offense is "in fact committed" meaning they are 100% completely positive the offender perpetrated the crime. even if it's extremely likely, they can't legally take action without witnessing the act and being completely sure. and cops aren't allowed to shoot if they think the person is going to attack them, we're only allowed to shoot if the person is threatening the use of deadly physical force (they must be explicitly threatening you with something that is likely to kill you), and even then we're limited in some cases here's a fun fact: cops are not allowed to shoot at a moving vehicle or its occupants, even if the driver is attempting to run them over, unless somebody threatens deadly physical force through means other than the vehicle (ie pointing a gun out the window) i have no idea if any of this is relevant, i just scanned the topic and thought it might be at the very least, it's kind of interesting! nice someone who actually has an idea of what they are talking about -- no more mr. nice sess....hello mr. nice watch! somebody call the brinks truck! <cite>MRNlCEWATCH posted [p:942833] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> TimJab posted...citizens are only allowed to take action if the offense is "in fact committed" meaning they are 100% completely positive the offender perpetrated the crime. even if it's extremely likely, they can't legally take action without witnessing the act and being completely sure.and cops aren't allowed to shoot if they think the person is going to attack them, we're only allowed to shoot if the person is threatening the use of deadly physical force (they must be explicitly threatening you with something that is likely to kill you), and even then we're limited in some caseshere's a fun fact: cops are not allowed to shoot at a moving vehicle or its occupants, even if the driver is attempting to run them over, unless somebody threatens deadly physical force through means other than the vehicle (ie pointing a gun out the window)i have no idea if any of this is relevant, i just scanned the topic and thought it might beat the very least, it's kind of interesting!nice someone who actually has an idea of what they are talking about -- no more mr. nice sess....hello mr. nice watch!somebody call the brinks truck! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/26/12 3:46:00 PM #87:	well, every jurisdiction is different in stuff like that so he really doesn't! -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:942834] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> well, every jurisdiction is different in stuff like that so he really doesn't! -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TimJab 03/26/12 8:07:00 PM #88:	not really though -- http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6967/timfavre.png <cite>TimJab posted [p:942835] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> not really though -- http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6967/timfavre.png </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/26/12 8:40:00 PM #89:	yes really otherwise there would be absolutely no debate about stand your ground because it wouldn't exist? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:942836] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> yes reallyotherwise there would be absolutely no debate about stand your ground because it wouldn't exist? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/26/12 9:34:00 PM #90:	Timjab does indeed know what he is talking about. The law on self defense is very similar in the different states. You on the other hand do not, because you keep pointing out things that are irrelevant legally. Hint: you do not have the right to make a citizen's arrest without cause. If you try.....you probably started the fight! -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:942837] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> Timjab does indeed know what he is talking about. The law on self defense is very similar in the different states. You on the other hand do not, because you keep pointing out things that are irrelevant legally.Hint: you do not have the right to make a citizen's arrest without cause. If you try.....you probably started the fight! -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/27/12 6:47:00 AM #91:	Hint: you do not have the right to make a citizen's arrest without cause. When did I say anything about making a citizens arrest? In any case, if your point is that self-defense laws are the same in Florida (which has liberal concealed carry, castle doctrine, AND stand your ground) as they are in new york (where a tourist who walks up to a police officer and asks 'hey where do I check my gun' gets charged with a felony) then I guess that just proves me even more correct that stand your ground is irrelevant to this case. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:942838] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> Hint: you do not have the right to make a citizen's arrest without cause.When did I say anything about making a citizens arrest?In any case, if your point is that self-defense laws are the same in Florida (which has liberal concealed carry, castle doctrine, AND stand your ground) as they are in new york (where a tourist who walks up to a police officer and asks 'hey where do I check my gun' gets charged with a felony) then I guess that just proves me even more correct that stand your ground is irrelevant to this case. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
FFDragon 03/27/12 6:50:00 AM #92:	I just heard on the radio that the neighborhood watch dude's story is that he was jumped by the kid, got punched in the nose, and then head his head bashed on the ground. When police found him he did have a bloody nose and head. Which makes self-defense viable again. I have fact checked none of this for the record. -- If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif <cite>FFDragon posted [p:942839] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> I just heard on the radio that the neighborhood watch dude's story is that he was jumped by the kid, got punched in the nose, and then head his head bashed on the ground. When police found him he did have a bloody nose and head. Which makes self-defense viable again.I have fact checked none of this for the record. -- If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE]http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
OmarsComin 03/27/12 6:59:00 AM #93:	I like how at first there was no witness and now there's a witness who saw everything and called 911 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npHDxSvwCE0 <cite>OmarsComin posted [p:942840] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> I like how at first there was no witness and now there's a witness who saw everything and called 911 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npHDxSvwCE0 </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MRNlCEWATCH 03/27/12 8:19:00 AM #94:	*OmarsComin posted...* I like how at first there was no witness and now there's a witness who saw everything and called 911 and also how police were literally "correcting" witness' testimonies when they were giving them a few weeks ago. police do stuff like this and succeed ALL THE TIME (and I'm not a random board 8er/smartmuffin talking out my ass...this stuff kinda pays my bills). they are trained in how to manipulate witnesses into saying events happened with 100% confidence that five minutes ago they could have sworn on their mothers life did not. they do the same thing to suspects, its how they manage to get innocent people to literally confess to murder. -- no more mr. nice sess....hello mr. nice watch! somebody call the brinks truck! <cite>MRNlCEWATCH posted [p:942841] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> OmarsComin posted...I like how at first there was no witness and now there's a witness who saw everything and called 911and also how police were literally "correcting" witness' testimonies when they were giving them a few weeks ago. police do stuff like this and succeed ALL THE TIME (and I'm not a random board 8er/smartmuffin talking out my ass...this stuff kinda pays my bills). they are trained in how to manipulate witnesses into saying events happened with 100% confidence that five minutes ago they could have sworn on their mothers life did not. they do the same thing to suspects, its how they manage to get innocent people to literally confess to murder. -- no more mr. nice sess....hello mr. nice watch!somebody call the brinks truck! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/27/12 9:25:00 AM #95:	When did I say anything about making a citizens arrest? If you approach someone on a public road because they look suspicious and to try to stop them from committing a crime, you probably started the fight, whether you used the words "citizen's arrest" or not. In any case, if your point is that self-defense laws are the same in Florida (which has liberal concealed carry, castle doctrine, AND stand your ground) as they are in new york (where a tourist who walks up to a police officer and asks 'hey where do I check my gun' gets charged with a felony) then I guess that just proves me even more correct that stand your ground is irrelevant to this case. Most of those differences aren't relevant here. Stand your ground.........kind of is, now that I think about it. This case would be open and shut in New York, whereas in Florida Zimmerman can make a case that Martin was the one who first escalated the encounter with force. In NY the prosecution could say, "okay, so what if he was acting in legitimate self-defense. So what if Martin attacked him first. He had a duty to retreat anyway." In Florida a jury needs to weigh the evidence on the core of self-defense, whereas in New York a jury could ignore all of it and convict on lack of retreat. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:942842] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> When did I say anything about making a citizens arrest?If you approach someone on a public road because they look suspicious and to try to stop them from committing a crime, you probably started the fight, whether you used the words "citizen's arrest" or not.In any case, if your point is that self-defense laws are the same in Florida (which has liberal concealed carry, castle doctrine, AND stand your ground) as they are in new york (where a tourist who walks up to a police officer and asks 'hey where do I check my gun' gets charged with a felony) then I guess that just proves me even more correct that stand your ground is irrelevant to this case.Most of those differences aren't relevant here. Stand your ground.........kind of is, now that I think about it. This case would be open and shut in New York, whereas in Florida Zimmerman can make a case that Martin was the one who first escalated the encounter with force. In NY the prosecution could say, "okay, so what if he was acting in legitimate self-defense. So what if Martin attacked him first. He had a duty to retreat anyway." In Florida a jury needs to weigh the evidence on the core of self-defense, whereas in New York a jury could ignore all of it and convict on lack of retreat. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/27/12 4:54:00 PM #96:	which is why New York is a fascist state that infringes upon your natural rights in ways that Florida doesn't. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:942843] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> which is why New York is a fascist state that infringes upon your natural rights in ways that Florida doesn't. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/27/12 5:32:00 PM #97:	I've literally never heard the phrase "white Hispanic" until this case -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:942844] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> I've literally never heard the phrase "white Hispanic" until this case -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/27/12 5:34:00 PM #98:	Because most Hispanics are white. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:942845] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> Because most Hispanics are white. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/27/12 5:35:00 PM #99:	So what else can they be? black hispanics? samoan hispanics? hispanic hispanics? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:942846] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> So what else can they be? black hispanics? samoan hispanics? hispanic hispanics? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LordoftheMorons 03/27/12 5:37:00 PM #100:	So in Smuffin's world killing someone you're in a confrontation with is a "natural right" even when there is no mortal danger okay -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE <cite>LordoftheMorons posted [p:942847] in Trayvon Ma... [t:62337790]...</cite> <quote> So in Smuffin's world killing someone you're in a confrontation with is a "natural right" even when there is no mortal dangerokay -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - GuigaI wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Topic List	Page List: 1, 2, 3, 4

Board 8 > Trayvon Martin has NOTHING to do with the "stand your ground" doctrine [dwmf] (+) Yeah! (+)

Board 8 > Trayvon Martin has NOTHING to do with the "stand your ground" doctrine [dwmf]