| Topic List | |
|---|---|
|
neonreaper 05/14/12 11:44:00 AM #351: |
VeryInsane posted...
Also, with the game that just ended... Scum Dayvig Should it no longer be considered "taboo", like Scum Prosty? Hmmm if there is a scum role which is taboo, should that not also make the town version taboo? -- Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter? Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards. ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Achromatic 05/14/12 11:47:00 AM #352: |
From: neonreaper | #351 Scum and Town operate based on different mechanics. Taboo scum roles are often that way because by their very nature they run counter to "good logic" town is able to employ to win games, while scum is informed so potentially powerful town roles are not outside the realm of their thought process. Scum prosty was taboo'd because it was a long accepted fact that if a person gave a slept message every night that was town. It was taboo because of culture, not really anything powerful. Scum bomb is taboo because the good logic of town killing scum is punished. -- http://firsthour.net/screenshots/suikoden-2/suikoden-2-luca-blight.JPG The Cult of Personality. ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
CoolCly 05/14/12 11:47:00 AM #353: |
Well historically, Dayvig hasn't just been a role that gives its faction a kill. It's confirmed by the host to exist, and only been used by town. So a dayvig existing gives a kill and also a confirmed town.
Similar to how mayor or a votestuffer would be confirmed. Are we to assume any of these roles can be scum? I've always been of the mind that in addition to these roles actually doing something, they give a confirmed town and that should be included in balance. -- The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Achromatic 05/14/12 11:47:00 AM #354: |
From: CoolCly | #353 Didn't stop everyone from calling me day SK in touhou~ -- http://firsthour.net/screenshots/suikoden-2/suikoden-2-luca-blight.JPG The Cult of Personality. ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
_Regaro_ 05/14/12 11:49:00 AM #355: |
From: Achromatic | Posted: 5/14/2012 1:47:53 PM | #354 "HGR Game" And the same game had a Scum Doublevoter/Mason for a Day so uh <_< -- http://img.imgcake.com/RegaroUlquiorrapngse.png http://img.imgcake.com/regthatchertabletpngyd.png ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Achromatic 05/14/12 11:52:00 AM #356: |
I think it is projecting. "Chris is playing good he can't be town like us"
-- http://firsthour.net/screenshots/suikoden-2/suikoden-2-luca-blight.JPG The Cult of Personality. ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
CherryCokes 05/14/12 12:03:00 PM #357: |
I'm not sure, but haven't we had a scum mayor before
-- http://i.imgur.com/u4tZA.gif ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Achromatic 05/14/12 12:03:00 PM #358: |
Scum Mayor is taboo because it gives scum the power to take away town's good decision making.
it is nasty. -- http://firsthour.net/screenshots/suikoden-2/suikoden-2-luca-blight.JPG The Cult of Personality. ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
_Regaro_ 05/14/12 12:04:00 PM #359: |
I think a CE game had third-party mayor. I don't think we've ever had an outright mafia one though, or even a third-party one on B8
-- http://img.imgcake.com/RegaroUlquiorrapngse.png http://img.imgcake.com/regthatchertabletpngyd.png ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Luis_Sera89 05/14/12 12:13:00 PM #360: |
If it wasn't already explicit enough, Scum Mayor is banned.
-- "Eet's game time..." ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
neonreaper 05/14/12 12:24:00 PM #361: |
Achromatic posted...
while scum is informed so potentially powerful town roles are not outside the realm of their thought process. That's true. I think my 'concern' was that there are town roles that give you a shot/scan and a host confirmation, and using them as scum roles is taboo because host-confirmed actions equate to town. I'm sorry if I worded my question poorly at first that scum bomb/mayor have been brought up :( my bad. Maybe I've missed some games but I think town has now won the scum prosty and scum dayvig games. I feel like in both cases, the town teams were forced into actual play/analysis. -- Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter? Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards. ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Hrezs 05/14/12 12:53:00 PM #362: |
neonreaper posted...
Achromatic posted... while scum is informed so potentially powerful town roles are not outside the realm of their thought process. That's true. I think my 'concern' was that there are town roles that give you a shot/scan and a host confirmation, and using them as scum roles is taboo because host-confirmed actions equate to town. I think this is a terrible thought process that needs to change. -- PhoneYoshi ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Hrezs 05/14/12 12:55:00 PM #363: |
Also I don't see a problem with scum mayor
-- PhoneYoshi ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Achromatic 05/14/12 1:00:00 PM #364: |
From: Hrezs | #363 Then you are crazy. -- http://firsthour.net/screenshots/suikoden-2/suikoden-2-luca-blight.JPG The Cult of Personality. ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
_Regaro_ 05/14/12 1:01:00 PM #365: |
The only logical nerf to scum mayor I can think of is "If this role stops a scum lynch, it commits suicide as soon as the person it saved flips"
(Which isn't logical at all and you can see how asinine the role is like this) -- http://img.imgcake.com/RegaroUlquiorrapngse.png http://img.imgcake.com/drakeryn/regarojpgpe.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Hrezs 05/14/12 1:10:00 PM #366: |
Achromatic posted...
From: Hrezs | #363 Also I don't see a problem with scum mayor Then you are crazy. I think you can balance for it, and give town powers to counter scum mayor. So long as you don't have the mentality that because its a mayor it has to be town. Regaro has a good balace option. I agree with no scum bomb though, although for different reasons. I don't think you can balance for it blowing someone up at random, its the equivalent of putting a 1 shot vig into the game and having it shoot randomly. -- PhoneYoshi ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Hrezs 05/14/12 1:11:00 PM #367: |
Also regaros role is called martyr on aim iirc, but its still a pseudo-mayor
-- PhoneYoshi ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Luis_Sera89 05/14/12 1:29:00 PM #368: |
You can't balance for a scum mayor. It's a role that goes against the very foundations of mafia as a game. Most town and scum power roles add elements to a game, they don't take anything away. A town mayor, as an isolated role, changes a successful lynch into a no lynch, in a situation where he isn't sure whether he's saved town or scum. A scum mayor could knowingly spare a scumbuddy from the lynch, and deny town the fundamental objective of lynching scum, which is the sole goal when you strip everything back. It'd be like stopping someone from winning Snakes and Ladders by arbitrarily adding an extra ten spaces on.
-- "Eet's game time..." ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
masterplum 05/14/12 1:47:00 PM #369: |
I agree with the idea that you could balance anything, but that doesn't actually work in practice.
Ultra OP roles have the flaw that if they are killed really early randomly the game is suddenly now one sided. In order to counter this you must not have one role that is significantly better then everything else. So you would need several roles as strong as scum mayor to balance it So that's pretty lol -- yE frE me Kweku Ananse Papa me:http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1508/masterplumgm3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Hrezs 05/14/12 2:03:00 PM #370: |
Luis_Sera89 posted...
You can't balance for a scum mayor. It's a role that goes against the very foundations of mafia as a game. Most town and scum power roles add elements to a game, they don't take anything away. A town mayor, as an isolated role, changes a successful lynch into a no lynch, in a situation where he isn't sure whether he's saved town or scum. A scum mayor could knowingly spare a scumbuddy from the lynch, and deny town the fundamental objective of lynching scum, which is the sole goal when you strip everything back. It'd be like stopping someone from winning Snakes and Ladders by arbitrarily adding an extra ten spaces on. Your argument is misleading. You say its unbalance-able but then go on to talk about mayor theory, and not game balance. If were talking balance, how is a scum mayor different than a princess? -- PhoneYoshi ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Hrezs 05/14/12 2:06:00 PM #371: |
This is, of course, running under the assumption that the entire game doesn't think mayor has to be a town role. Any role that confirms itself as town but isn't is inherently broken because it means the host is lying to town.
-- PhoneYoshi ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Sceptilesolar 05/14/12 2:10:00 PM #372: |
From: Hrezs | #370 He's not talking balance, though. That's why it's unbalanceable, because it's a bad role in a more fundamental level. EDIT: Also, princess is a bad comparison because it's a terrible role, but even then at least it's not preventing town from getting a fair shot at the lynch. -- "[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]" ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Hrezs 05/14/12 2:27:00 PM #373: |
Princess and scum mayor have the same end result, a day phase as been skipped. Its the perfect comparison.
And just because a role is bad doesn't mean it should be banned. -- PhoneYoshi ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Achromatic 05/14/12 2:30:00 PM #374: |
From: Hrezs | #373 Princess involves either a town mistake or a scum success. Scum Mayor is a no risk role. -- http://firsthour.net/screenshots/suikoden-2/suikoden-2-luca-blight.JPG The Cult of Personality. ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Luis_Sera89 05/14/12 2:54:00 PM #375: |
The inclusion of a scum mayor breaks a game before you've even started accounting for balance, is what I was getting at. It's not bad due to a Mayor essentially being confirmed town after they've used their ability, but rather because it directly blocks town from achieving it's core aim. Scum Unlynchable would be exactly the same, not because it needs to be killed at night, but because it can't be lynched in the first place.
-- "Eet's game time..." ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
CoolCly 05/14/12 2:56:00 PM #376: |
So what about a scum dayvig that could end the day?
-- The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Luis_Sera89 05/14/12 3:02:00 PM #377: |
CoolCly posted...
So what about a scum dayvig that could end the day? Same thing. It's preventing town from potentially getting a scum lynch. Except it's killing town instead of directly nullifying a scum lynch. Not to say this is always what would definitely happen, but you have to account for optimum use. You could argue that scum could use it on their own team to appear town, but that's still taking the destiny of the lynch out of town's hands. -- "Eet's game time..." ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
MajinZidane 05/14/12 3:02:00 PM #378: |
on the other hand, what about changing the role to scum "corrupt mayor" or something like that?
the same effect in terms of gameplay, but with a noticeably different host in-game message. "the corrupt mayor has called off the lynch." "through an abuse of power, the mayor acted on a bribe and called off today's lynch." something that would get the message across that this probably wasn't town without outright saying "the scum-aligned mayor has called off today's lynch" or hell, maybe doing exactly that. you get to include a possibly powerful, non-standard scum role in a game that denies town a lynch, but at what cost? can the mayor talk his way out of the lynch, depending on how blatant the host message is (that he'd know about before using his action) by intentionally saving town? would the mayor use his role to save scum for one day to get another roleblock out of their would-be-lynched-blocker before town inevitably lynches the same person again? would the mayor use his role to save town just to create the same scenario as the last situation? I LOVE WIFOM! ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
MajinZidane 05/14/12 3:03:00 PM #379: |
alternatively, a scum mayor that doesn't simply nullify the day's lynch but instead forces the second most vote getting person to be lynched. this way, scum gets to have the "saving a specific player" effect without completely negating town's vote for the day (unless exclusively scum are on the second lynch, but still!)
just toying with fun ideas here. -- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to Boko United." ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Sceptilesolar 05/14/12 3:05:00 PM #380: |
Scum executioners have existed before, I think. But IMO any scum role that directly interferes with votes or the lynch should be a no-go. Scum dayvig that doesn't end day, scum prosty... those are fine. But scum mayor, scum executioner, scum doublevoter, scum unlynchable, those are undesirable.
-- "[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]" ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
MajinZidane 05/14/12 3:05:00 PM #381: |
or a corrupt mayor that makes all scum unable to act that night - so you're taking away town's vote for a day and also taking away scum's kill for a night.
or possibly just taking away scum's kill, and still letting them roleblock/scan/whatever. -- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to Boko United." ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
CoolCly 05/14/12 3:07:00 PM #382: |
lol Boko, aren't we supposed to not meta anything the host says flavour wise? >_>
-- The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
MajinZidane 05/14/12 3:09:00 PM #383: |
well, we have town roles that manipulate scum's special abilities (stopping their kill). we have town roles that emulate scum's special abilities (informed minorities that can freely communicate like masons or recruiters). i understand why scum being manipulate voting goes against the basic principles of the game, but i think finding a fair balance that let's scum have some manipulation of voting isn't completely game-breaking (assuming a "fair balance" can be found).
-- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to Boko United." ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
MajinZidane 05/14/12 3:12:00 PM #384: |
From: CoolCly | #382 i'm not talking about flavor. i'm talking about bold messages. when the host tells the game, in bold, that "boko has disappeared" you do not metagame that and you accept it as fact. you can metagame why he has disappeared, and try to figure that out. when the host tells the game, in bold, "the lynch was called off" you do not metagame that and you accept it as fact. likewise, you can metagame why the lynch was called off and try to figure that out. -- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to Boko United." ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Luis_Sera89 05/14/12 3:15:00 PM #385: |
scum executioner, scum doublevoter
These are grey areas, particularly the executioner. The one principle you can never abandon when making a game, is that town has to have influence in every lynch. Whether it's day 1 with no scum whatsoever on the lynch, or an end of game scum hammer after one town votes incorrectly at do or die. Hence, no mayor or unlynchable, which give town no say in the matter. Boko's idea still ultimately wrestles control of the lynch away from town, even with the stipulations nerfing it. Executioner and doublevoter kind of meddle with the lynch rather than decide it though. I think both have clauses that mean they can't cause lynches without town input. The Doublevoter in Touhou couldn't give scum an auto-win at do-or-die iirc. Executioner is a pretty bad role, which is why it's never used. It's a lot more telegraphed than a scum Day Vig, and still needs a town vote so it can't be 100% scum influenced. -- "Eet's game time..." ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Hrezs 05/14/12 3:16:00 PM #386: |
Luis_Sera89 posted...
The inclusion of a scum mayor breaks a game before you've even started accounting for balance, is what I was getting at. It's not bad due to a Mayor essentially being confirmed town after they've used their ability, but rather because it directly blocks town from achieving it's core aim. Scum Unlynchable would be exactly the same, not because it needs to be killed at night, but because it can't be lynched in the first place. I'm saying you can balance for it in a similar way you'd balance for princess because they have the same end result: a day phase is skipped against towns will. I see your stance, I don't get why the lynch has to be untouchable. -- PhoneYoshi ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
VeryInsane 05/14/12 3:18:00 PM #387: |
I feel like the only, even remote way scum mayor would ever work in a mafia game would be so that it can only mayor players that aren't on its own team.
Doesn't prevent the scum team from getting lynched, and is really only there for confirmability's sake. Still, the fact that it is a mayor could probably cause a problem that prevents players from wanting to lynch it and destroy the game as a whole in the first place anyway. Also, it's a sacrifice of a mislynch as well in exchange for that confirmability. -- If man is V, If Man is V, If Man is V Then the Devil is VI, then The Devil is VI, Then the Devil is VI... ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Achromatic 05/14/12 3:19:00 PM #388: |
From: Hrezs | #386 From: Achromatic | #374 Secondly the lynch can't be touched because it is punishing town for being correct. -- http://firsthour.net/screenshots/suikoden-2/suikoden-2-luca-blight.JPG The Cult of Personality. ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Luis_Sera89 05/14/12 3:24:00 PM #389: |
I can see why you're using the Princess analogy, given the similar outcomes, but they're different kinds of roles. A Princess is intended as a pitfall to be avoided by the town; bad when killed, even worse when lynched. This is made clearer when you consider that original variations of that roles only had it activate upon lynch rather than both lynch and death at night. A scum mayor is a get out of jail free card, and a flawless, foolproof one at that.
-- "Eet's game time..." ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
SpeedYoshi 05/14/12 4:04:00 PM #390: |
From: VeryInsane | #387 not if we have discussions like this. Just going out and doing, definitely. From: Achromatic | #388 The role is much deeper than that and you know it. Scum will not use the role 100% of the time to save a scummate, that would be suicidal if the mayor ended up dying before the mayor's target, which is not that unlikely of a scenario. From: Luis_Sera89 | #389 Sure, it's a get out of jail free card. Sure, it's stronger than princess and why the events occured is different. But because the events are the same I think they're similar enough that it shows that it's not that ridiculously overpowered and when given a proper host and scenario, can be a viable role. The pitfall of it, moreso than town losing some information, is that if a bad host uses it then it becomes ridiculously powerful. I do think it's less powerful than a janitor, and less bad than a miller. Since you brought it up earlier and I didn't have the chance to respond to it: I think scum unlynchable is broken for the reason you dismissed. I think the reprecussions of the role far outweigh any chance of it being a reasonable role, not that it prevents a lynch. -- Don't worry guys, I have all the clubs ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Sceptilesolar 05/14/12 4:06:00 PM #391: |
The role is much deeper than that and you know it. Scum will not use the role 100% of the time to save a scummate, that would be suicidal if the mayor ended up dying before the mayor's target, which is not that unlikely of a scenario.
I'm confused, why wouldn't they use it 100% of the time? At worst it's a free extra night before town goes and lynches the same guy again. -- "[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]" ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
SpeedYoshi 05/14/12 4:08:00 PM #392: |
From: Sceptilesolar | #391 -- Don't worry guys, I have all the clubs ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Sceptilesolar 05/14/12 4:15:00 PM #393: |
Yes but I don't see how that's suicidal.
-- "[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]" ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
SpeedYoshi 05/14/12 4:17:00 PM #394: |
it's a free lynch
-- Don't worry guys, I have all the clubs ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Sceptilesolar 05/14/12 4:18:00 PM #395: |
But it was a free lynch already.
-- "[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]" ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
SpeedYoshi 05/14/12 4:23:00 PM #396: |
unlikely, very rarely is a lynch free(guilty scan is pretty much the only time it happens), and if it was a free lynch, chances are you aren't mayoring it.
-- Don't worry guys, I have all the clubs ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Sceptilesolar 05/14/12 4:27:00 PM #397: |
I think you're looking at it wrong. I'd rather look at it like an Assassin, because it works out similarly. You use it as quickly as possible because it gives you a free night at no cost. Even if they just lynch your guy afterward because you didn't do anything to make him more trustworthy, the extra night is beneficial.
-- "[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]" ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
CherryCokes 05/14/12 10:16:00 PM #398: |
I love when discussions like this break out because they almost always give me (horrible) ideas that I can spin into gold
Thanks, everyone. -- Cokes as The Green Lantern, by fr0q http://img.imgcake.com/greencokespngsa.png ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Panthera 05/14/12 10:50:00 PM #399: |
Let me guess, Mafia Allergic to Government, a role that can only be lynched if it gets Mayor'd.
-- Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved. ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
neonreaper 05/15/12 8:44:00 AM #400: |
Town lynch is fundamental to mafia. I don't think scum should have a role that prevents a day from resulting in a town-decided lynch. I feel this way about paralyzer as well.
In regards to princesses, I think they should trigger on lynch only. -- Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter? Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards. ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
| Topic List |