Board 8 > Board 8 Mafia Discussion Topic 41 - Redux

(+) Yeah! (+)

Perhaps when you put more effort into the mafia community other than idle chatter in the discussion topic your voice will be cared about when it comes to what is and what is not silly.

That goes for most of you, really. A lot of you guys complain about the players, the hosts, etc but find things that actually hold others accountable as "silly" and "too far." It works, and maybe we wouldn't have had so many ruined games in the past if someone would have stepped up and made people accountable.

Just saiyan.

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Sir Chris
The Cult of Personality.

I'm just offering my two cents. No need to get offended by it. Feel free to disagree, but that's simply all I'm saying.

But if you want more people to put more effort into the mafia community, perhaps a discussion as a community on what the punishments for a variety of things to hold people accountable would be more effective than just one guy making all the decisions. I think a group discussion on that would work, especially since if everyone knew the punishments for breaking certain rules and had a say in them, then there's really no excuse when they're held accountable to it. It would certainly provide people a solid list of major things to not do in order to help out new players and dissuade everyone from breaking said rules.

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Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1
Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!

What's the difference between that and what I am doing in reality.

All I do is provide a benchmark to start and based off what the community feels (example: overwhelming is too harsh) I adjust accordingly. Not like I am spitting in the face of the community, I am literally listening to everyone.

The reason why I don't think it is a good idea to just discuss things without any sort of starting point is two people can barely agree on anything in mafia and there's a lot of disagreement and back and forth.

Also the rules in every mafia topic are the rules. There are just some weird cases (this one) where there is technically not a rule posted for it (very technically mind you) but it falls under common sense.

Oh, and the reason I am offended is you call my efforts "silly" while your efforts are ... none. I find that rude.

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Sir Chris
The Cult of Personality.

quack quack

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Boko are you insulting me?

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Sir Chris
The Cult of Personality.

Well, my apologies for offending you, but that's what I think.

But if you want more effort into the community, it's probably a good idea to try and involve them. That's just how a community works. Clearly it doesn't all fall under common sense is people are still breaking the rules. A simple guideline of stuff that you can and will get punished for would be more than enough to dissuade people. I think we could probably find a majority's rule kind of thing for any discussion on this too. I mean, mafia is a game of majority rules after all. I think we can all respect and abide by the rules if the majority agree on them, even if some people do disagree with a rule and consequence of it.

Basically, I don't see how this would be a bad thing at all.

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Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1
Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!

Because before I started doing this literally no one cared to do things like this. It is only when someone steps forward and does things others do not generally want to do that suddenly the things I do are "silly" and "not fair" and "biased."

It is one thing to say it, but guess what? It didn't work like that before I started screaming for people's heads.

People can do what they want, and then I get to watch it burn.

Oh, and by the way: Mafia is not about majority rule. It is a game of deception and undermining the majority into believing their fellow majority is actually the minority. Also the "majority" in mafia often either make mistakes or are bullied by smart people into just following along.

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Sir Chris
The Cult of Personality.

nah, that wasn't meant to be insulting anyone.

sometimes I just feel silly.

--
Virtue - "You don't need a reason to Boko United."

By the way, going by majority rule alone it would seem that I probably keep my unofficial position of "guy who doles out stuff." Do you know why? Because I have 0 power over anyone. I was not elected, I did not slay a king. I have never issued a "listen to everything I say or I will never play again." The closest was me flipping out over Atma and that was deserving of a flip out. The fact that people give my opinion so much weight, even if they disagree, is the proof that the majority is most of the time fairly comfortable with the things I say. If they aren't they speak up and they are heard.

We already got majority rule you guys just don't know it tbh.

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Sir Chris
The Cult of Personality.

So... because nobody stepped up to do anything before you, you think that the community shouldn't step up together to do something about it?

Nobody stepped up to do anything like this because nobody felt it was their place to try and enforce a banning system or anything. But here's the thing: if we all stepped up to do it collectively, then there's no issue with having to try and enforce it individually. It's something we all agreed upon as a community to do.

If you're seriously opposed to the community working together to discuss how to deal with these very apparent problems and come up with a system that works, then don't complain that people aren't getting more involved in the community.

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Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1
Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!

You are all talk, Zhang. That's why I am complaining. It is easy for you to come in here one day and be all like "shame on you Chris" but guess what? You haven't done anything. You talk about this glorious better way but what have you actually done.

You are just the commentary, you aren't actually doing anything. Nor do I suspect you ever will.

By the way, whose stopping anyone from doing anything? Is it me? Because I "oppose" it?

Then one person opposing something makes the whole community bend to his will?

I guess I am just that cool.

I mean Boko tells me to my face he doesn't like the way I do things and at least he has an informed opinion and is here day after day trying to help.

I mean look if people don't want me doing this all they have to do is say so. I'll stop. I don't get a paycheck for it or anything.

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Sir Chris
The Cult of Personality.

I haven't done anything?

Well, why should I if you're going to get all defensive and try to attack me when I'm trying to suggest a way to better the community like I am right now? Do you consider this doing nothing? Trying to come up with a way to solve your apparent issue with how people aren't involved?

I'm not even saying "Shame on you Chris." All I said was that I thought it was silly for one guy to basically give out all of the punishments, especially in the rather blunt way in which it was done, especially when the community isn't even involved. That's it. I am not going out of my way to offend you, but you're getting incredibly defensive about it.

I gave my suggestion. It's open to our entire community. If people think it's a good idea, great. Then I'll be sure to definitely discuss things. If not, then whatever. I'll chime in when I feel like it. But if you really want people to get more involved and you're honestly sincere about having our community be more involved in things, then suggest how we can do that, because a lot of times people just aren't sure. Hell, I'm not even sure. Granted, I took a very long break due to school and student teaching and such, so the last game was my latest foray back into mafia. If there's something that can get me more involved with the community, I'll be open to it.

Basically, I don't think anybody is opposed to you being our community spokesperson/manager/whatever. You know a lot about the game, have good ideas for the most part, and have an idea where you want things to be. But if you want us to really get involved, then help us out and come up with ways in which we can do that. I'm not attacking you here. I'm just giving you and the rest of the community a suggestion on how to make our community run smoother and prevent the apparent issue with games being ruined by players and hosting.

And with that, I'm going to go sleep.

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Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1
Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!

I definitely get where Chris is coming from here.


If my experience running a guild in WoW has taught me anything, it's that when some cool new way to help out appears, members of a community will come out in droves to say "yeah I'll totally help out with this! We're a community!". But after a couple weeks the feeling of satisfaction that they are doing something helpful wears off and they eventually just flake out. People are full of suggestions and enthusiasm in the short term but in the long term, they tend not to keep up with responsibilities they don't really have to do, and everything gets pushed back on to the one or two people truly committed to keeping things going.


Some kind of a group consensus on these decisions sounds nice, but its hard to believe that even if the community figured out a good way to do it, that people would be committed to it 6 months from now.

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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG

Is it weird I was more bothered by XIII's post-lynch meltdown than by Plum's shenanigans (terrible though they were)?

I don't think that dead scum being silenced is a clearly superior enough option to be the new default rule. I think it could be interesting to have it be the default for some amount of time though, if for no other reason than to test it/ have it be more accepted as an equally valid host discretion option rather than a crazy niche rule set in the future.

Worth it since I know certain c***s had their panties in a bunch over it and I'm done for a while anyway.

plum's punishment is too harsh but I'm sure my opinion is considered "irrelevant" or whatever.

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XIII_rocks, the cream of XIII fanboyism.

Yeah I see where Chris is coming from if no one does it then no one does it. If everyone just sits back and says "yeah we should do that" it doesn't get done. I have no problem with Chris doling out bans and whatever. My only issue was the Plum ban.

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Although if Ulti's "hey Ima post this here cause I know Plum won't do nothin" story is legit then it becomes less host oversight and more "that's on Plum." Though if Plum was active on the scumboard then that still seems messed up, since he might've you know, not wanted to have a vow of silence.

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No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!

Ulti made a mistake, plum abused it.

I think Chris is the perfect choice for Mafia Overseer.

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(\__/)
(='.'=] < http://img.imgcake.com/sbellcardjpgub.jpg

Chris, you just have to fall in love with the sweet innocent side of me, that's all.

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no one has been banned from anything. if i were to host a game in the next 8 games, i'd let plum in. anyone else is free not to do so.

I just realized my game may or may not come up within that 8-game span, and frankly I wouldn't be opposed to letting Plum in if he signed up unless it was a situation where I'd consider cutting him from the list anyways..

I respect Chris a lot and recognize that he's generally pretty good at what he does, but I think that the players who legitimately do something that the community deems bad, like in this case, should take it upon themselves to stay out of games for a little while (Don't know how long? Talk it over with somebody that you respect within the community. But keep it private), rather than forcing a semi-formal "process" of Chris setting the standards and everybody else adhering that frankly we shouldn't need (In this case, at least)

(For the record, 8 games ago was AW Maf which was about six months ago. Excluding the Newbie game)

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hgr game confirmed

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sorry hgr's filled his hosting quota for the next year and a half

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Signs up for HGR gaMODKILL

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(='.'=] < http://img.imgcake.com/sbellcardjpgub.jpg

Mafia is just a fun game, we put a lot of effort into it, and I wouldn't want to play with people that want to ruin it for everyone. Hey look, hosts screw up, other players can be annoying, but there's no need to try and ruin it for everyone else just because you're upset. I don't care to weigh in on Sir Chris words being law or not, but they are at a minimum a good starting point for thinking about "should these people sit out a few games until they grow up a little bit".

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tag

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From: CoolCly | #148
It is kind of Ulti's fault for not realizing plum still had access to the board, but if you read.plums posts right after he did it on the mason board, it's just full of LOL ULTI TROLLOL ITS YOUR FAULT AND I DONT EVEN FEEL BAD. THIS GAME WAS RUINED ALREADY ANYWAYS.

yeah, this is what does it for me

plum was pretty willfully being dishonorable and then rubbed it in ulti's face

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From: Lopen | #168
Although if Ulti's "hey Ima post this here cause I know Plum won't do nothin" story is legit then it becomes less host oversight and more "that's on Plum." Though if Plum was active on the scumboard then that still seems messed up, since he might've you know, not wanted to have a vow of silence.

realistically, it's irrelevant whether Plum was active on the scumboard or not

all the masons are dead, he has no reason to revisit the mason board.

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Ulti was host.

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Sir Chris
The Cult of Personality.

This is what I'm picking up:

Plum and Ulti were masons, but Plum was scum and Ulti was town.

Ulti posted role information on the mason board, then Plum relayed that information to the scum board.

Is this right?

Also, to Hrezs:

I think the best way of balancing is doing Best case vs Worst case for both sides. Best Town vs Worst Scum and vice versa.

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That makes a lot more sense to me.

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Best/worst case is one of the last checks you do when balancing. There are so many other checks you have to do before that

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From: CherryCokes | #179
realistically, it's irrelevant whether Plum was active on the scumboard or not

all the masons are dead, he has no reason to revisit the mason board.

So seeing if you guys were saying anything interesting isn't a valid reason? Isn't that the reason anyone goes to the mafia discussion topic?

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Yeah, I'd be more surprised if a dead mason didn't periodically check the mason board to see if there was any interesting conversation, even if the entire masonry were dead.


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I'm not saying that played into Ulti's decision to post things

I'm just saying that it strikes me as odd that you'd come back when everyone's dead after being away for two weeks while Masons were still alive

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I still don't quite understand what happened. Was it a posting accident, like Ulti accidentally posted game info on the mason board instead of on the admin board, and he wasn't able to delete his post before plum saw the info?


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You put your RESOLVE HAT back on, which conveniently is the same hat as your NORMAL HAT.
{Drakeryn}

Gatarix posted...
I still don't quite understand what happened. Was it a posting accident, like Ulti accidentally posted game info on the mason board instead of on the admin board, and he wasn't able to delete his post before plum saw the info?


Nope, he willingly posted it on the mason board.

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From: SBell0105 | #169
Ulti made a mistake, plum abused it.

I think Chris is the perfect choice for Mafia Overseer.

This is all that really needs to be said. Sums up everything pretty well.

The rest of this:


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*Lives in the Future*
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- Plum, a scum member, was recruited into the masonry and died.
- Ulti posted the playerlist and ranted about the game on the mason board just because Spiral and maybe someone else asked him for the playerlist. He claimed to have posted knowing plum could see but said that he didn't think it mattered since he trusted plum not to say anything.
- plum saw, taunted Ulti a bit, then told Boko (who was his scum buddy still in the game) that there was an SK. I dunno about the rest of the details about that.
- Ulti modkilled plum over this and replaced Boko.

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Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1
Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!

welp


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You put your RESOLVE HAT back on, which conveniently is the same hat as your NORMAL HAT.
{Drakeryn}

From: PrivateBiscuit1 | #190
- plum saw, taunted Ulti a bit, then told Boko (who was his scum buddy still in the game) that there was an SK. I dunno about the rest of the details about that.

Close. It went I saw something small that I thought Ulti slipped. Told Boko, realized that Ulti was posting everything realized I had already told him some stuff so I might as well tell him everything. Told Boko everything, taunted Ulti. Felt bad about taunting Ulti and telling Boko.



That's about the order there.

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yE frE me Kweku Ananse Papa
me:http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1508/masterplumgm3.jpg?tti

For what it's worth, I'm not convinced Plum did anything wrong here. He saw an opportunity to give his team an advantage and took it. We regularly threaten to get each other modkilled over not playing to win, and now a player is banned because he... played to win. Okay then.

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Besides, marijuana is far more harmful than steroids. - BlitzBomb
I headbang to Bruckner.

It is worth very little.

To clarify that is less me as a person who tries to be fair and more of me the host and the player. If you believe that what Plum did was an action that was right in order to fulfill the doctrine of playing to win I think you have a sad lack of perspective of what mafia is about.

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Sir Chris
The Cult of Personality.

Easiest way to a win is to cheat >_>

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Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat.

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No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!

Lopen "The Body" Ventura

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Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1
Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!

Anyway I do think it would be nice to have a standard punishment method of some sort instead of just "whims of Sir Chris"

Just a draft at a standardized method:

Modkill: 1 game ban.
Modkill where you reveal information that's against the rules beyond "no talking at night": 3 game ban.

Make both of these cumulative with past offenses, so like, in a game where you got modkilled if you'd had 1 modkill and 1 info modkill on your record you'd get a 5 game ban.

If you play 10 games in a row without incident your banned game total goes back down to 0. If you ever reach 10 games banned you're permabanned.

Or something like that. Obviously if someone does something completely absurd like post their entire scumteam with names + roles at night I could see the community just permabanning straight out but yeah. You cross those bridges when you come to them.

Basically in short I'm saying Plum should only be banned for 3 games I suppose. Just getting banned multiple games should be enough for him to know that it's not acceptable to do that again, I'd imagine. 8 is kinda just excessive-- it becomes less about reforming the behavior and more about punishment, which is kinda pointless.

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No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!

So plum has a red card?

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(='.'=] < http://img.imgcake.com/sbellcardjpgub.jpg

I've cheated in every single game I've played, I just never get caught.

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