From: Ness26 | #048 So... you can equilibrium farm in LoL just like you can in Dota if you get lucky and the creep waves happen to start in the enemy's favor. Doesn't really seem that great.
That's not really a matter of "luck" It will happen several times over the course of any given game. It's just a matter of recognizing when it's happening and acting accordingly.
In fact, similar to zoning, you could say it requires more skill to freeze a lane in League due to the lack of denying. Which is actually preferred to me, as it gives you something to do during laning that is more involved than looking at lifebars and last hitting. You take a trade off of it not being able to be done at all times cause of denies not existing, but it's a worthwhile trade to me. That's my whole problem with denying actually-- it's a kind of interesting mechanic on its own but it makes a lot of other things a lot easier to do as a result and to me makes laning a lot less interesting generally. I will admit that DotA games will be more interesting to watch generally early game because of this and especially ganks being easier, but that doesn't mean it''s less interesting to play. It's kinda like Marvel 3 vs SF4 in that regard. Only sickos watch SF4 streams cause the footsies are kinda boring, but when you're actually doing it there's totally an argument for being the more satisfying game.
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From: Lopen | #051 That's my whole problem with denying actually-- it's a kind of interesting mechanic on its own but it makes a lot of other things a lot easier to do as a result and to me makes laning a lot less interesting generally
FD just admitted that there are lanes where the two enemy champions completely ignore each other and just trade last hits since there's nothing they can do to each other.
I'm not sure if it's possible to get a lane that's more boring than that.
I mean in Dota even if you ignore denying... The side lanes can be pulled. These camps can be blocked with wards, which can in turn be counter-warded. If they are pulling you can still go into the jungle to try to steal the last hits on the pull. If the other team is pulling you can take advantage of the lane being pushed and dive the tower and get a kill. Or if you have a trilane you can just push the tower down before the 5 minute mark.
The middle lane heroes are in competition over runes. Also roaming to gank isn't as costly since the rewards for a kill are higher. You can bottle crow to be more aggressive in the mid lane, but it prevents your allies from shipping their own items to themselves.
It just seems like there are a lot more options in Dota and this allows more strategies to be possible.
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No amount of planning will ever replace dumb luck.
He didn't say it was impossible for the lanes to do anything to each other he said the meta supports them not attempting to do anything to each other because it's just easier to try and farm your best and wait for a gank to make a move given the current meta.
Also I believe he was only talking about solo top in particular. Bot and mid aren't "farm fests"-- they can be but that doesn't mean that's necessity (or even necessarily a result of the mechanics when it does happen)
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From: Lopen | #054 He didn't say it was impossible for the lanes to do anything to each other he said the meta supports them not attempting to do anything to each other because it's just easier to try and farm your best and wait for a gank to make a move given the current meta.
You're talking about low-skill meta. That's pretty much how I play the game. Just sit there and get last hits and denies. If I can harass, I'll try, but I'll usually just try to get last hits. This is a good thing because I am bad at the game, so keeping it simple works great for me as a tutorial.
Then when you get better and get bored of just last hits, you can expand into all these tricky advanced strategies, all of which are balanced and have counters in the metagame.
Seems like a pretty good difficulty curve to me.
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You're making me want to play it again and I absolutely suck at LoL. People have told me to kill myself in real life before. A lot of people. In bot games.
From: OctilIery | #056 Also - Vanguard on Pudge, yay or nay
Pudge frequently gets Hood and possibly Pipe so in this case you probably don't want Vanguard as well. Vanguard does nothing against Rot damage, and ideally you're hooking into Dismember so your opponent never even has a chance to attack you.
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No amount of planning will ever replace dumb luck.
Sure, all three of these heroes right-click to deal their damage but that's just the nature of the role. Through everything you said about Ashe/Caitlyn/Vayne... they still right-click enemies to deal damage. I don't think it's really fair to say they're the same hero because of that.
You don't play much LoL do you?
Because you can't if you just said that. Cait has 4 damaging abilities, two of them for sure a part of her damage kit in any fight. Ashe doesn't just do damage she is an AoE slow boss with a CD for slowing/controlling a fight. And Vayne's stun is a very important part of her.
They all play way differently than Dota champs, and I love my sniper to death.
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From: Ness26 | #052 FD just admitted that there are lanes where the two enemy champions completely ignore each other and just trade last hits since there's nothing they can do to each other.
Yes, as a result of current balance on a few champs and the current meta being used by a majority of high level teams.
It's a qualified statement that includes the fact that you CAN run a champion that beats that kind of "cant do anything to each other" statement. Because those champions exist too. It is NOT the sort of thing you see every game.
From: Lopen | #054 He didn't say it was impossible for the lanes to do anything to each other he said the meta supports them not attempting to do anything to each other because it's just easier to try and farm your best and wait for a gank to make a move given the current meta.
Also I believe he was only talking about solo top in particular. Bot and mid aren't "farm fests"-- they can be but that doesn't mean that's necessity (or even necessarily a result of the mechanics when it does happen)
And yes, this is what I said.
From: Achromatic | #061 They all play way differently than Dota champs, and I love my sniper to death.
Right I'm not saying dota doesn't have ANY variety, I'm just saying that LoL has it in spades. I think the AD Carry champions from LoL differ more widely in terms of their influence on late game team fights. I understand that Drow/Clinkz/Sniper all have their differences in terms of when you would want to use one and not the other (as you mentioned for the jungle dominance with clinkz or the counterpick against channels/etc with sniper) but their ACTUAL impact on the late game fights amounts to much the same thing.
Cait can attack the furthest, like Sniper, but she also has a skillshot physical nuke, her traps and a net that simultaneously knocks her back and slows an opponent. Sniper has an AoE slow and 2 passive abilities that makes him better at right clicking to kill things.
Ashe has an AoE disable of sorts like drow (I would say that Ashe's is better because it can actually be used as an initiate), she also has a cone shaped damage/slow, an on hit single target slow, and a skillshot ability to give vision over a distance. Drow has the AoE "disable" and the on hit slow and then 2 passive abilities that make her better at right clicking to kill things.
Do you see the difference between having 3-4 abilities and ways to uniquely effect a team fight and having only 1-2? THAT is the point I'm making.
From: Ness26 | #048 I don't think anyone has said anything like this. We say it makes for a good gameplay mechanic. Combos were an accident in fighting games. Something being unintentional initially doesn't really have an effect on its validity as a game mechanic.
Oh and this is basically what I said? I was the one who pointed out that denying was unintentional. And I used fighting games as an example of how meta has sometimes revolved around unintentional such side effects. I understand that denying is firmly embedded as a gameplay mechanic and isn't going anywhere. I just wanted to challenge people to try and think about game mechanics objectively. Especially mechanics that have at different times in a games career been completely removed.