Board 8 > Man, Dota 2 is so much fun when you finally start doing things right.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Just had my first good game as Pudge, both in the sense that I didn't feed, and I was actually an asset to the team with good hooks and catches.

Feels good bro :3

And I'm just going to pretend I didn't hook Doom Bringer into my team, and also pretend I didn't hook our team's Alchemist while he was charging his bomb >.>;

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Joyrock
Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!

LoL superior.

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The Cult of Personality.

Which Dota 2 do you mean?

HoN? LoL? Steam DotA?

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From: UltimaterializerX | #004
To Dota 2? Dota 2's in beta dude, not really a fair comparison =/

If you're talking the original, they're equal.

Ulti why are you talking about a game you haven't played (much)

come on man!

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[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]

Literally ran away from the LoL topic lmao how's that "get to fd's points when I have time" working out for you champ.

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Robazoid posted...
Which Dota 2 do you mean?

HoN? LoL? Steam DotA?

HoN can no longer be called Dota 2 as more than half of the heroes are S2 heroes now...and they are terrible and nothing like Dota heroes at all

Which is sad because HoN UI is pretty much perfect and better than that of Dota 2 in almost every way (Dota 2 replay system is amazing though...including the stats you can see like each team GPM etc)

Do you want me to play with you?

And I've seen a lot of bad Dota players migrate to LoL.

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Tornadoman78:
tornadoman and tornadogirl like to kick box each other in my tornaolayzers and she dosent even mind getting hit

From: UltimaterializerX | #009
Drow and Clinkz are not remotely the same hero.

I know joyrock's skill in debate is about equal to dowolf or Spiral's town play in mafia, but to be fair it's hard debating with someone as delusional as FD.

Same hero, different tier of utility and thus viability. But they play nearly the same.

Also that is an insult to dowolf and Spiral.

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Drow and Clinkz are vastly different, actually. The only similarities are they both deal a lot of damage and are agility heroes.

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Tornadoman78:
tornadoman and tornadogirl like to kick box each other in my tornaolayzers and she dosent even mind getting hit

UltimaterializerX posted...
From: Achromatic | #007
Literally ran away from the LoL topic lmao how's that "get to fd's points when I have time" working out for you champ.
Drow and Clinkz are not remotely the same hero.

I know joyrock's skill in debate is about equal to dowolf or Spiral's town play in mafia, but to be fair it's hard debating with someone as delusional as FD.

Nah my debating skills are fine, my patience for filling in idiots on details they should already know is the issue :3

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Joyrock
Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!

Well they are as 'vastly different' as they can be in DOTA.

which isn't very much.

I feel bad for people who hang on to relics like you guys but it can't be helped =(

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From: OctilIery | #013
UltimaterializerX posted...
From: Achromatic | #007
Literally ran away from the LoL topic lmao how's that "get to fd's points when I have time" working out for you champ.
Drow and Clinkz are not remotely the same hero.

I know joyrock's skill in debate is about equal to dowolf or Spiral's town play in mafia, but to be fair it's hard debating with someone as delusional as FD.

Nah my debating skills are fine, my patience for filling in idiots on details they should already know is the issue :3

terrible at both games
thinks he can argue
joyrock

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The Cult of Personality.

I feel bad for people who got crushed in one game, then moved on to an easier one and called it the best.

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Tornadoman78:
tornadoman and tornadogirl like to kick box each other in my tornaolayzers and she dosent even mind getting hit

The Real Truth posted...
I feel bad for people who got crushed in one game, then moved on to an easier one and called it the best.

Don't worry we all feel bad for Chris.

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Joyrock
Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!

Who did that? Certainly not me! I have never devoted the time or the effort in either Dota or LoL required to be as skilled as some people. However the old DOTA had a lot of problems which makes it less fun than LoL and the new DOTA isn't fixing them so of course I am going to point out the glaringly obvious flaws!

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http://firsthour.net/screenshots/suikoden-2/suikoden-2-luca-blight.JPG
The Cult of Personality.

Anyway, if any of you want to play Dota 2, just let me know. I haven't played in almost 2 weeks and it's not even installed, but I'll jump in if anyone is going to play.

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Tornadoman78:
tornadoman and tornadogirl like to kick box each other in my tornaolayzers and she dosent even mind getting hit

PS I don't care what your skill level is. As long as you don't go AFK or quit mid-game, I will play with you.

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Tornadoman78:
tornadoman and tornadogirl like to kick box each other in my tornaolayzers and she dosent even mind getting hit

I'd say probably 95% of debate is in explaining positions in the right way so yeah you are pretty terrible at debating.

I mean what else is there to a debate than explaining viewpoints? Well there's saying "you're wrong" which I will admit you're quite good at.

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This is a cute and pop genocide of love!

From: UltimaterializerX | #022
Uh

I know you're a Dota monster and all but there's plenty of people on this board that can hang with you pretty well. red13n would embarrass all of us so bad that it would be like getting slapped by God himself.

and I beat red 10-0 mid in DOTA 2 with sniper!

(It was the UI and camera being super weird and confusing the hell out of him mind you, but Sniper too strong!)

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The Cult of Personality.

Also for some reason I feel like most people who stick with DotA thinking that LoL is so much more simplistic or whatever is mostly because of the way the game looks. People see cartoony designs and a map where everything jumps out at you and automatically assume that it's the simpler game. Then they play a few low level games and are like "yup this game is so basic I was totally right" and well I guess they kinda were cause it was low level play.

Having played a good deal of both at a decent level (but more LoL at this point) I can't really say I think DotA is all that much more deep or anything. And I actually prefer the cartoonish look of LoL because it's easier to see what's going on on the screen... and of course on the other side of the spectrum you have HoN which just looks like a cluttered mess all the time. Never even going to try that one, honestly. DotA2 I will give a shot at some point when it's convenient for me, though..

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No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!

I honestly feel like creep denies make laning less involved. I feel like League is more zoning heavy/aggressive in lane due to creep denies not existing, which is more satisfying and I could argue makes it more deep.

Instead of just kill stealing your own minions you actually have to work to force the guy out of the lane if you want to deny him income. That's not to say lane harass doesn't exist in DotA but I think it's a more important part of League's play. Ganks also take more effort to set up in league for various reasons which further drives home the need for proper zoning-- you could say that makes it "easier" but that's all a matter of perspective of ganker vs laner.

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No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!

That's only true if you assume that the zoning is equally important and equally difficult to do in each game. It's not, really. The ganks being easier means you don't need to play as aggressively early for ganks to work, and kill denying means that you can remain competitive in CS while in lane while playing more defensively.

Like to me it just feels like a focus shift rather than adding to the package. You can't really say that DotA is a less aggressive game because ganks are easier so there is more aggression somewhere, but I feel the laners that aren't ganking need to be more aggro in League. Which basically just amounts to laning is more fun in DotA as mid cause you can go have fun ganking with impunity, but less everywhere else.

Also they're far from the same game beyond laning-- mostly in that there's less focus on carries, but that's a different thing entirely.

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No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!

Stop flooding this topic with irrelevant opinions. It isn't about LoL.

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Joyrock
Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!

not getting involved in this argument but...

DotA 2 so fun. I wish more people played it.

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Aecioo posted...
not getting involved in this argument but...

DotA 2 so fun. I wish more people played it.

Pretty much this. And Pudge is so satisfying :3

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Joyrock
Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!

although I will say that zoning actually exists more in DotA than LoL because you can actually control the lane in DotA, making it so the lane will not automatically push out from you last hitting.

in LoL you can zone them, but eventually your lane pushes to their tower and they are able to farm, even if it's a creep wave. In DotA you can not only deny to control your lane so it never moves from a certain spot, but you can simultaneously zone them out of experience entirely, forcing them to either commit or ask for a gank to even have a shot to get any last hits/experience.

I don't understand the argument of no denying = better laning experience because of zoning, because in DotA you have the potential to zone characters even harder in lane than you ever do in LoL.

imo

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OctilIery posted...
Aecioo posted...
not getting involved in this argument but...

DotA 2 so fun. I wish more people played it.

Pretty much this. And Pudge is so satisfying :3

puck most satisfying hero in the game

except for maybe a fed tinker. TELEPORT TO LANE, CLEAR CREEP WAVE, ULT, GO BACK TO BASE, ULT, GO TO DIFFERENT LANE, PUSH, ULT, TELEPORT BACK TO BASE

for like 30 minutes straight

and no one can stop you because you're ****ing tinker.

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and yeah dota and lol have evolved to be very different games so I actually think it's dumb to compare the two anymore, but people will because that's what people do.

End of the day it depends what you have more fun with

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Maybe things have changed, but the last time I watched competitive LoL there were lanes that never even bothered attacking each other since they both knew that characters' base regen/armor was too high to actually force someone out of the lane with auto-attacks and it wasn't worth the resources in trying. This resulted in two heroes just standing around in lane last-hitting creeps for the first X minutes of the game.

Denies encourage aggression since you have competition over last hits. You can't just ignore the enemy since you each have the same targets. Plus it allows you to control lane position and you can prevent the wave from ever going near their tower so they can't just tower hug and get experience. Not to mention towers are weaker so it's possible to make dives early on.

I dunno, LoL always seemed more passive since there is no counter to wards (smoke) and it's harder to come-back so taking risks is discouraged.

As for deepness... considering every single competitive game has both teams running the exact same lanes with the exact same champ setup... I'd consider that shallow. The only time the meta-game has changed has been by Riot forcing it to change with nerfs.

Also new HUD for Dota 2 with the latest patch:


Shiny.

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No amount of planning will ever replace dumb luck.

So how about that LoL

Sure is great, isn't it?

Let's all talk about it!

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**R.O.B.A.Z.O.I.D**

LoL is much more passive in laning because of things like no smoke, flash, clairvoyance, heal, timing on camps, no runes, no teleports outside of summoner spell, super towers, etc.

Like I said, it doesn't necessarily make it worse since it's all preference, but I do believe it makes competitive matches much more boring to watch >_>

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Aecioo posted...
OctilIery posted...
Aecioo posted...
not getting involved in this argument but...

DotA 2 so fun. I wish more people played it.

Pretty much this. And Pudge is so satisfying :3

puck most satisfying hero in the game

except for maybe a fed tinker. TELEPORT TO LANE, CLEAR CREEP WAVE, ULT, GO BACK TO BASE, ULT, GO TO DIFFERENT LANE, PUSH, ULT, TELEPORT BACK TO BASE

for like 30 minutes straight

and no one can stop you because you're ****ing tinker.

I haven't tried puck yet, sucked as Tinker :(

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Joyrock
Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!

I got into the beta and tried some people out.

One of them was Invoker, and I can't understand why anyone would ever want to play anyone else ever again.

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"What if you just eat vegetarians?"-neonreaper
"^ You are what you eat. ^_~"-Koiji

How the f*** can anyone suck as Tinker?

He might seriously be the game's easiest hero.

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Get the X out.
Vinateri was using his god powers on the Pats and then was like "Wait I'm a Colt now lol" and now you have it.

Viper is the games easiest hero. Viper or SK.

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Tornadoman78:
tornadoman and tornadogirl like to kick box each other in my tornaolayzers and she dosent even mind getting hit

From: OctilIery | #013
Nah my debating skills are fine, my patience for filling in idiots on details they should already know is the issue :3

"Idiots on details they should already know"

"FD"

That's a bit of a stretch there don't you think?

You literally pulled arguments virtually out of nowhere and took the road of "assumed superiority" when arguing against the newer-to-the-genre players. Then I decided to enter the conversation and went in depth on the SPECIFIC point that you used your example (AD Carry uniqueness in DotA vs AD carry uniqueness in LoL, in case you forgot) and you haven't spoken about the matter sense.


In what sense is this "debating" and in what sense would your debating skills be considered "fine"?

If you want to talk to the less knowledgeable players and NOT to me then just say that so everyone else will stop taking you even remotely seriously and we can move on. Otherwise I'd appreciate it if you would return my effort of composition with something of your own. I don't think I'm asking for too much here.

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From: The Real Truth | #012
Drow and Clinkz are vastly different, actually. The only similarities are they both deal a lot of damage and are agility heroes.

They are different yes. Drow has the on hit slow and AoE Silence. Clinkz has a +damage orb effect and windwalk BUT they are both still the epitome in terms of "right click someone and make them dead" champions which is what Joyrock was arguing about. He said that all LoL ranged AD champions play the same and were completely unoriginal, things like that which simply isn't true. And in this specific category (being ranged attack damage characters) I find DotA to be particularly lacking.


In LoL you have characters like Ashe, Cait, Vayne, Tristana, Kog, Corki, etc and they are all VERY unique in the kind of presence they have in a teamfight at various stages in the game. Just looking at late game you have~

Ashe: Dat Arrow for the initiate (she's the only AD carry who brings a solid initiate to her team). She also has the auto crit on her first attack in a battle but otherwise provides "a bit" less raw DPS at the end of the game. But Dat Arrow still provides a unique thing that SHE and SHE alone brings to her team from the AD Carry category.

Cait: Longest base attack range in the game. Kog beats her with an activated ability and Tristana's might be slightly longer once she's level 18... Unfortunately this means that Cait's time to shine is early game and so she wants to be rolling strong by mid game before she falls off. (Or more correctly before the enemy AD catches up) Ideally Cait will use her long range to establish the early advantage and so what she brings to late game is 3 small traps to place during team fights (which can dictate where your opponents can or cannot stand) and technically she also brings a "weaker enemy AD" into late game provided she did her job correctly in early game laning phase.

Vayne: Smallest AD carry attack range but her skillset scales the HARDEST into late game. (Tied with kog maybe). Vayne brings absolute destruction to late game provided she didn't let herself get shut down early on. She has condemn (a knockback) and her roll to keep herself safe from the kind of champion who likes to chase out an AD carry. But it's the fact that her roll gives her damage on her next attack and the fact that her silver bullets give her true damage every few hits that means she can chew through almost any champion late game. Only Kog can claim to be as good at chewing through tanks, but Kog requires a LOT more protection to get it done. Vayne doesn't have Kog's range but she protects herself.

AD carry isn't even my best category but I can do this for every one of them if necessary (hint: it should not be). They are all as different as night and day which gives lie to Joyrocks claims. They all have to act VERY different in end game usefulness and they HAVE to be played differently at that point in the game to be effective.



Compare this to Drow/Clinkz/Sniper who are remarkably interchangeable. They get to end game and they right click things. Yes Drow has a silence to use (making her superior) and yes clinkz can turn himself invisible (which is virtually useless against pro players) and yes sniper can drop an AoE slow, but the fact is that beyond these few differences they play mostly the same at end game. Drow honestly has the biggest impact because of silence but that still doesn't cause her to be built any differently than other AD carries. She can't get away with building refresher for example.

And as I admitted previously YES dota has some of the most unique characters in the history of ever. Nerubian Weaver and meepo among others player so differently than anything else but the issue was the claim that LoL AD carries were "all the same" and that DotA did not suffer from any such problems and so that specifically was what I was addressing.

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FD

From: The Real Truth | #016
I feel bad for people who got crushed in one game, then moved on to an easier one and called it the best.

Pretty sure red and I are the boards best players at both DotA and LoL. Not trying to be arrogant here.

And I'm pretty sure we were BOTH extremely disappointed when we found out that "DotA 2" is a glorified port. All it is doing is moving the game from the Wc3 engine to it's own engine.

Which granted is something that needed to happen for the game to improve BUT they haven't tried to improve it, merely replicate.

I don't dislike DotA by any means. I've played thousands of games of it and it prepared me to be a very strong LoL player, I just think they could do more with it. Although if DotA 2 is free with micro transactions or at least not HORRIBLY expensive I'll probably still play it once it goes live.

From: Lopen | #026
And I actually prefer the cartoonish look of LoL because it's easier to see what's going on on the screen...

So much this. Granted I don't think it's the cartoony style that makes it easy to tell what is going on, but there is a LOT of emphasis on graphical aspects that make LoL very crisp. Things getting highlighted when they start to target you. The aggro lines from towers and things like that make a difference. That doesn't mean it was impossible to tell what was going on in DotA, because it wasn't, but if you can do things to make it more clear then why not?

Just because something isn't broke doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. And DotA was by no means "broke", but LoL still took the genre forward in a variety of ways, this being one of them.

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From: Ness26 | #037
Maybe things have changed, but the last time I watched competitive LoL there were lanes that never even bothered attacking each other since they both knew that characters' base regen/armor was too high to actually force someone out of the lane with auto-attacks and it wasn't worth the resources in trying.

Right. This is partially I think a balance issue and partially a reflection of the LoL meta game. There are solo top laners who can break that cycle, but when you put two such champions against each other then you have that situation. When you get a team who is willing to use a different meta and a different solo top (which is where it typically occurs) then you don't have that same kind of farm fest.

Plus it allows you to control lane position and you can prevent the wave from ever going near their tower so they can't just tower hug and get experience

This isn't the first time this has been mentioned in this topic, but it is ENTIRELY possible to completely freeze a lane in LoL. All it requires is their lane to start to push and for you to manage the amount of ranged minions the other side has. You can still completely freeze them out, you just have to make sure you aren't attacking any more than you need to so you keep the proper balance in effect.



As far as denying goes I will say that denying was one of the things I immediately missed when I made the switch to LoL, but it bears noting that I don't think that denies make sense from a conceptual stand point. You're trying to win a war and so your method of war winning involves killing as many of your OWN soldiers and allies as possible? Really? And not only that but if you kill 99% of an opponent but another opponent takes the final show you don't get ANY XP for it? Did you not still do a bunch of real work to create a dead opponent but simply because the final attack was done by his ally you get zilch? It adds a different competitive element, yes. But how much SENSE does it make? These are important questions too. And asking them helped make the switch easier.

Because honestly denying only existed in DotA because that's how the Wc3 engine worked! Ice Frog didn't initially know how to make it IMPOSSIBLE for you to attack allies so it was just part of the game. (initially this led to griefers who went around killing allies because there wasn't any code preventing it). After a great length of time they finally got it coded on so that you could NOT attack allied units (at all), but because denying had been determined to be useful it became PART of how people played the game. It's like a fighting game where an unintended effect simply gets developed into the current style of playing. People were used to denying and good denying was the mark of a skilled player. And so during those patches in which denying wasn't even possible people complained incessantly. And so eventually it got coded so that denying existed again but you could only attack an allied unit once it was beneath a certain threshold of HP (to prevent you from killing all your units right out of the gate) and then the same thing with allied heroes. But because they tried to take it out it is clear that denying was not initially an INTENDED feature of DotA, just a side effect of the Wc3 system.

I don't think DotA should get rid of denying, obviously, because it is very much a part of dota at this point, but I do think people need to reconsider this notion that denying is innately superior or even necessarily makes a hell of a lot of sense.

edit: and I guess that's all I have to say about the subject at the moment. Walls are done ^_^

LoL's itemization and stat systems aren't horrendously flawed (this comment is a result of me being too lazy to get used to Dota's)

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Boomshine
~Justin_Crossing

From: Forceful_Dragon | #047
I don't think DotA should get rid of denying, obviously, because it is very much a part of dota at this point, but I do think people need to reconsider this notion that denying is innately superior or even necessarily makes a hell of a lot of sense.

I don't think anyone has said anything like this. We say it makes for a good gameplay mechanic. Combos were an accident in fighting games. Something being unintentional initially doesn't really have an effect on its validity as a game mechanic. And I don't really care at all about how logical a game like Dota is. We could also say things like "it doesn't make sense for Nature's Prophet to fight against the Radiant" but it isn't really a big deal.

From: Forceful_Dragon | #047
This isn't the first time this has been mentioned in this topic, but it is ENTIRELY possible to completely freeze a lane in LoL. All it requires is their lane to start to push and for you to manage the amount of ranged minions the other side has. You can still completely freeze them out, you just have to make sure you aren't attacking any more than you need to so you keep the proper balance in effect.

So... you can equilibrium farm in LoL just like you can in Dota if you get lucky and the creep waves happen to start in the enemy's favor. Doesn't really seem that great.

As for Drow/Sniper/Clinkz...

Drow is the only ranged AGI carry with an AoE disable. Her ult makes her slightly less item dependent than other carries so Drow can still do okay in situations where she doesn't have as much farm as she'd like.

Clinkz is more naturally durable than other ranged carries because of Death Pact. Also he makes the jungle unsafe for the enemies to farm, causing the opponents to have to play more cautiously. This gives him a team presence that Drow/Sniper can't provide. Competitive teams have used Clinkz a few times recently and he's done this job fine, completely shutting down the opponent's jungle.

Sniper has the largest range in the game and his shots can disrupt the target. This allows him to counter heroes with long cast animations/channels, which is something neither Drow nor Clinkz can do. Sniper can offer early pushing through Shrapnel.

Sure, all three of these heroes right-click to deal their damage but that's just the nature of the role. Through everything you said about Ashe/Caitlyn/Vayne... they still right-click enemies to deal damage. I don't think it's really fair to say they're the same hero because of that.

From: Forceful_Dragon | #046
Although if DotA 2 is free with micro transactions or at least not HORRIBLY expensive I'll probably still play it once it goes live.

Completely free. Cosmetic items, announcer packs, alternative couriers, etc are things that they'll have as DLC. Apparently there's a "twist" that they haven't announced yet, so maybe we'll be surprised. It's definitely free to play with access to all heroes though.

--
No amount of planning will ever replace dumb luck.

LoL's itemization and stats support snowballing (late game items are more gold efficient than early game items and everyone can scale).

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No amount of planning will ever replace dumb luck.