Board 8 > Doc Ranks the Animated Disney Canon

(+) Yeah! (+)

My guess for next is I dunno. Better not be Mulan, I'd be surprised if it was.

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It couldn't be. I would derive so much joy from it, and Doc can't give that to me.....least not yet ;)

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I apparently have only seen about half of the animated Disney canon. I thought I saw more than that.

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My prediction is Dumbo, actually. Could be Sleeping Beauty, too, if memory serves, but Dumbo should be showing up right about now. Most of the people I know agree it's one of the lesser entries in the canon from when Disney was alive (outside of the package films).

And as for Fantasia vs. 2000, I can understand liking 2000 better than the original, even if I don't. The original does take an extraordinary amount of patience to sit through and still be entertained - and sometimes if I'm not in the right mood it's difficult for me to sit through all at once. 2000 also has some killer sequences like the one with the whales at the beginning, Rhapsody in Blue, and the Firebird. And I actually like Donald Duck's Noah's Ark thingy too, for what it's worth. I'd put them on just about the same tier, to be honest.

Dumbo hasn't shown up already? Could've sworn it did. And I don't remember watercolor in it. I definitely remember plenty in Mulan, and a teensy bit in Sleeping Beauty.

In fact let's go with Sleeping Beauty.

Only because I really don't want it to be Mulan.

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#28 – Lilo & Stitch (2002)

Best Character: Nani
Worst Character: Stitch

More than any other film on this list I came into this one looking to change my opinion of it for the better. I know it has become one of Disney’s most popular films, and I wanted to be as open as possible to it. If you’ve ever participated in the SMDC contests, you probably know I’m not a very big fan of Lilo or Stitch. Given their popularity in those contests I was hoping I would like them more during this watch-through so I wouldn’t be annoyed every time they made a deep run in the SMDC contests. Unfortunately my opinions largely remained the same, and this is about where I would have placed it had I not re-watched it.

Lilo & Stitch is a great film that suffers in my eyes due to the very characters that make up its title. Lilo is a brat, and would be a nightmare to raise on your own. She doesn’t really fit in with anyone her age and she constantly acts like a wild child, which in turn complicates Nani’s life immensely. Stitch is just mean. I really didn’t remember him being as mean as he was, but after watching it again I found his antics were usually at the expense of others. Even after he develops feelings for Lilo and Nani he’s still super reckless and destroys their home. He takes advantage of Lilo’s loneliness and naivety, Nani’s hospitality, and is exceptionally gross basically throughout the entire film. He’s not even cute. Like, I remain entirely perplexed as to his continued popularity. Sorry Stitch fans. I just don’t get it. Despite not liking them as characters, I do appreciate the effort Disney put into developing them. Both Lilo & Stitch have clear arcs and develop quite a bit, Stitch especially. The scene where Stitch ventures out into the forest at night trying to copy the children’s book is legitimately sad. His desire for family is sweet, but his antics are obnoxious.

Annoying characters aside, this film is sentimentally brilliant and does a fantastic job developing its characters. Nani in particular is very sympathetic. She has to put up with Lilo & Stitch, but still remains caring, nurturing and understanding. She has a spirit to her that I enjoyed watching, and seeing her financially struggle to stay afloat all the while supporting Lilo was very endearing.

In stride with having an endearing character like Nani, the film has a couple of really sweet, enjoyable songs in Hawaiian Rollercoaster Ride and He Mele No Lilo. Both of these were performed by a children’s choir and were perfect within the film. Unfortunately the rest of the songs don’t follow suit. I’m one of the few people who don’t like Elvis, and his presence in the film felt off to me. Or maybe I’m just looking for excuses because I don’t like Elvis. Whatever. The film should have stuck with the children’s choir and Hawaiian themed songs.

A few things in the plot irked me a little bit. Throughout the entire film we see Jumba trying to catch Stitch and trade him for his freedom. Immediately after he finally captures him however, Stitch simply asks to be let free and Jumba happily obliges. In fact, Jumba volunteers to lead a rescue mission to save Lilo. Uh, what? I thought Jumba was interested in his freedom. The ending was pretty weak as well. Stitch is made out to be some kind of ultra dangerous monster but the aliens just decide to leave him on earth at the end of the movie without any real punishment.. And this is just nitpicking, but in the very beginning of the film, when it’s revealed that Stitch has made contact with the earth, the aliens don’t seem to have any knowledge on the planet. They even go so far as to say the planet has no intelligent life forms. At the end of the movie however it’s revealed that the aliens and humans have already met before. A little nitpicky but it bothered me.

One of my favorite things about the film isn’t actually in the film at itself. The marketing effort for this film was hilarious, and it was fun seeing Stitch interact with a number of great Disney characters and films.





All in all Lilo & Stitch is pretty good for humor, but it also has a surprisingly warm and sentimental side to it. It really is a good film, and I can easily understand someone placing it higher if they liked the characters of Lilo and Stitch.

Next Up: The main characters are not human

Watercolor in Lilo and Stitch? Didn't see that coming at all. I'm with you on Stitch not being cute. I can understand why people might think he is, but I never thought so personally. I also agree the ending was pretty lazy. Just kinda thrown together to wrap things up in a tidy package.

But the Elvis hate? No. No. No. Bad.

Next up I'll go with Bambi.

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Also, I'm surprised how generously ranked Lilo and Stitch was for you considering you aren't overly fond of it. On my list, anything above like 36 or 37 are things I like. So being in 28th on my list is still good even though it's not in the top half.

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"THIS is how you make Nintendo win another generation. Good job, Sony and Microsoft, you're idiots." - Vlado

Lilo & Stitch

Doc's Ranking: 28/51
Karo's Ranking 17/49

An absolutely incredible movie that is sadly marred by a rather significant flaw. The flaw in question? Stitch's backstory and everything associated with it. It's bad enough that we waste the first scene of the movie dealing with all the idiocy of Stitch's origin, but we have to constantly put up with all the characters from that scene constantly poisoning the rest of the movie with their stupidity. We don't need any aliens in the movie other than Stitch, hell, we don't even need to know that Stitch is an alien, or really anything else about his past, really. It's not important to the core plot of the movie.
The two title characters, however, have incredible character development, and their relationship is the heart of the story. The movie also has one of the funniest scenes ever in a Disney film (the scene where Cobra Bubbles first comes over).
This is a really good movie that I liked a whole lot, but it could have been so much better then it was.


Best Character: Lilo

Simply one of the best Disney characters ever created, Lilo is delightfully weird and infinitely lovable.


Worst Character: Pleakley

Of all the stupidity to come out of Stitch's backstory, Pleakley is the worst offender. His main role in the movie is to whine and b**** about mosquitoes. Hey, Mr. Pleakley, why don't you do the whole movie a favor and drink a nice big glass of shut the f*** up?

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StifledSilence posted...

Also, I'm surprised how generously ranked Lilo and Stitch was for you considering you aren't overly fond of it. On my list, anything above like 36 or 37 are things I like. So being in 28th on my list is still good even though it's not in the top half.

Don't get me wrong, I like the film as a whole. Since The Rescuers Down Under I've genuinely liked each of the films I've placed. My dislike for the two main characters aside it really is a great film. That's why I mentioned how I could easily see it ranking much higher on someone's list if they liked the characters.

Main characters not human? Could be: Dumbo, Bambi, or The Great Mouse Detective.

Mmmm.....Dumbo?

But in clear Poke's faves world, it'd be GMD ;P

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Probably Bolt.

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Should be Dumbo

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Oh, forgot about Bolt. Let's go with that.

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From: Pokewars | #412

Main characters not human? Could be: Dumbo, Bambi, or The Great Mouse Detective.

Mmmm.....Dumbo?

But in clear Poke's faves world, it'd be GMD ;P

Or that thing where EVERY character is an animal.


Lion Ki....


I can't even be serious about this one.

Anyway, should be Dumbo or Bambi, given the way this has gone so far, will probably be GMD.

(Also, depending on how MAIN you consider Eric, it totally COULD be The Little Mermaid, Ariel, Ursla, and Triton are mermaid type things, Flotsam, Jetsam, Flounder and Sebastian are of course sea animals.

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MWC is god-tier

From: EmDubyaSee | #416

Lion Ki....

Yeah, that was omitted from my list intentionally, even though I'd love to see everybody's mind-exploding reactions :D

And The Little Mermaid isn't happening either anytime soon.

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From: Pokewars | #417

From: EmDubyaSee | #416

Lion Ki....

Yeah, that was omitted from my list intentionally, even though I'd love to see everybody's mind-exploding reactions :D

And The Little Mermaid isn't happening either anytime soon.

I know that, I just meant by definition of main characters being animals.

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From: Regaro_Ukiera |
MWC is god-tier

Also, yeah, I hope it's Lion King just to see the Reactions.

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From: Regaro_Ukiera |
MWC is god-tier

Good write-up.

Lilo portrays herself as very unlikable early on, basically being a brat and making life hard on poor Nani. I never have any sympathy for bratty kids, it's simply not endearing to me even though I know from my experiences that kids in real life typically are this way. Doesn't make me like it any more.

With Stitch, when I last watched it I actually liked him a bit more than I remembered. True he is destructive and mean, but his antics that are gross are actually sort of cute to me. I also disagree (with Karo) that his backstory is entirely necessary... how else would the main problems the films deal with make any sense without those characters? We'd be left with another Fox and the Hound, except Little Girl and the Alien. Sorry, one fake story about friendship is enough (not saying the film doesn't succeed in painting the friendship story, because unlike the aforementioned movie I believe it does succeed).

All in all, it isn't too bad. I can't really understand why it was more of a success than Atlantis or Treasure Planet (I realize Stitch sells merchandise and that's the reason it was profitable) from a movie standpoint. The side characters are a mixed bag. I liked most of them, one issue I had was Jumba's sudden change of heart. He seemed to give up on being a bad guy almost out of nowhere and for reasons that aren't ever really explained to my satisfaction. I suppose we are to believe he feels a connection to his creation, but there weren't any hints he felt anything like that at all until he suddenly joined up with the good guys.

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I'm guessing Bolt

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Should be Dumbo honestly, has long outlived where it should place.

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From: muddersmilk | #421

I'm guessing Bolt

Miley Cyrus is pretty obviously a main character in that movie...., that was a human.


He put main characterS, meaning all the main's need to be non human.


Which to me would just be

Some of the package films
The Lion King
Dumbo
The Great Mouse Detective
Bambi
Fantasia 2000
The Aristocats
Robin Hood
And again, Maybe Little Mermaid.

I believe every other film in the canon has a human as a main character (I guess it depends on how important you think Christopher Robin is)

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From: Regaro_Ukiera |
MWC is god-tier

Bolt and Mittens are the "main characters" of Bolt, sorry to burst your bubble there.

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Still smilin'
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Penny could count as an mc too, but Bolt and Mittens are certainly more significant to the story. Penny is about even with Rhino which is kind of a shame really. Since Bolt places her on such a pedestal it would've been nice to really show that he meant as much to her as she did to him. I mean it's obvious she cared, but it didn't seem as though she cared on the same level Bolt did.

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#27 – Dumbo (1941)

Best Character: Timothy Q. Mouse
Worst Character: The b***** elephants

Dumbo is the fourth animated film released by Disney, and tells the story of a young elephant that experiences the lowest of lows and incredible highs (literally!) through his journey as a performing circus elephant. It’s an emotional tale that clocks in at just barely over an hour, making it the shortest Disney film ever released with a singular narrative.

This is one sad film. Dumbo is ridiculed basically from the instant he’s born up until he learns to fly at the end of the film. Though it’s a short film it's still sad to see what Dumbo has to put up with for 55 or so minutes. The saddest scene, and this I’d argue is one of the saddest scenes in the entire canon, is when his mother is taken away from him and locked up like some wild monster. If that doesn’t effectively move you emotionally I don’t know what will. From this one scene alone Disney created a likable protagonist and did so all without making him speak. Impressive.

Dumbo as a character is surprisingly sympathetic despite never uttering a single word throughout the film. In this sense Disney did a great job creating affection for the little guy. He didn’t need words for the audience to connect with him. We simply watched his heart-wrenching tale and naturally began to root for him. Having Timothy Q. Mouse as a friend definitely helped Dumbo’s predicament, as Timothy really was the only friend he had throughout the entire film. I like Timothy. He stood up for Dumbo when no one else would, chased off the b***** elephants, and created a powerful friendship between the unlikeliest of animals. He doesn’t have much of an arc or development himself, but he’s a welcome addition to what would have been a depressing film without his friendship and guidance.

One of the biggest flaws the film has is its lack of a villain. Although the film certainly includes antagonistic characters that give Dumbo trouble and ridicule him, I wouldn’t necessarily deem them as villains. The b***** elephants are awful, awful personalities who make fun of Dumbo for having super cute big ears. I suppose his ears are a little funny but they’re much more adorable than funny. And then they exclude the poor little guy, who just had his mother locked away, from their group by justifying that he’s not even an elephant anymore, but a clown! Cliquey b****** or no, doing that to a baby is pretty inexcusable. The clowns are bad at times as well, as are the rest of the humans in the film, but they hold only minor roles designated to ridicule Dumbo and help the audience empathize with him. Thankfully Dumbo gets the last word as he learns to fly and puts all the haters to shame with a great flying sequence near the end of the film.

This film is an incredibly emotional and well-paced tale revolving around a simple story with simple songs. None of the songs really stand out as being very good, and the Pink Elephants on Parade sequence in particular felt a little out of place to me. It seemed like a precursor to Heffalumps and Woozles – a much better song. That said, Dumbo, Timothy and even the stereotypical crows are fun enough to make up for the lack of extraordinary songs in the film. I would have liked it to be a little bit longer than it was, but overall it was very well done and a great example of Disney creating great, emotional story arcs.

Next Up: A film coming after the Disney Renaissance

Elephants on Parade definitely inspired Hefalumps and Woozles and all the other Disney acid trips. In particular, one scene of two elephants doing a tango or waltz or something was added into H&W as like a throwback or something.

Timothy Q. Mouse is definitely the best, I couldn't agree more. All Disney sidekicks should take a lesson from him.

Also, XD Jim Crows.

I'll say Atlantis is next.

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Dumbo

Doc's Ranking 27/51
Karo's Ranking 25/49

A short but still good classic from the golden era. Though not up to the standards of the other films prior to the package era, it's still a decent watch. "Pink Elephants on Parade" is the best of the many 'drug trip' sequences that Disney has done over the years. Dumbo has many good songs, but I still can't help but feeling there needed to be a bit more to the story.


Best Character: Timothy Q. Mouse

Due to Dumbo being apparently mute, Timothy has pretty much 60% of the dialogue in the movie. This results in Timothy starting to push out Dumbo as the main character towards the end. Anyway, he wins this award by default, as the only major character in this movie other then Dumbo, who doesn't do anything other then stand around looking cute.


Worst Character(s): The Crows

A bunch of racial stereotypes who have atrocious grammar and sing gospel music. Yeah.

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Dumbo being mysteriously silent made little sense to me and turns me off from the movie after rewatching it. I agree he's a sympathetic mute lead, but it still makes the film not quite as good as it might could have been.

Since I'm the villain guy, I'll touch on what you mentioned there. The elephants are a bit like Cinderella's sisters, that I've mentioned I hated before. Bullies. Plain and simple. That being their one and only villainous trait (lumped together with arrogant and rude, it all still leads back to basically "b****") makes them very poor antagonist and literally my least favorite type of character. Most people view the Ringmaster as the main villain but he never really did anything "evil" outside of having Mrs. Jumbo locked up. While that is sad, it doesn't really do anything for me. I'd have ranked this much lower due to the fact of the poor antagonists.

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Next up: Atlantis: The Lost Empire

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I love the crows.

You want villains? Clowns man, those damn clowns.

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GenesisSaga posted...

Next up: Atlantis: The Lost Empire

We can only hope. But the way this list is going, it's probably not. I'll say Winnie the Pooh (2011). It's getting pretty high for that one.

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Dumbo didn't really have villains. Just jerks.

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But Winnie the Pooh (2011) is actually amazing.

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Pokewars posted...

But Winnie the Pooh (2011) is actually amazing.

It's fine. Certainly better than some of the others that haven't shown up yet. But I personally have it way lower than this.

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vcharon posted...

Dumbo being mysteriously silent made little sense to me and turns me off from the movie after rewatching it. I agree he's a sympathetic mute lead, but it still makes the film not quite as good as it might could have been.

Most people view the Ringmaster as the main villain but he never really did anything "evil" outside of having Mrs. Jumbo locked up.

I excused it simply because I acknowledged that Dumbo was a baby, and babies shouldn't be able to speak. Even Bambi couldn't speak for a little while. Sure he did eventually, but the amount of time that passed with Bambi was much longer than Dumbo. Dumbo just never grew to be old enough to speak I guess. If he spoke throughout the film I don't think I would like it as much.

The Ringmaster is is seen as the main villain? Really? I don't remember him being evil at all. Locking up Dumbo's mother was just something he thought he had to do after she started a commotion. I don't think there was any malicious intent behind it. And yeah, the comparison with Cinderella's sister is a pretty good one; I can see the similarities.

So I watched Saving Silverman tonight and I knew I recognized that guy's voice from somewhere and sure enough I Wiki it... F***ing Runt from Chicken Little.

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That guy? Brian Pohsen?

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Oh. Steve Zahn.

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Thankfully I've only seen Chicken Little once and I can't think of any of the characters' voices aside from Zach Braff.

I think the Ringmaster has been featured in video games as a villain type boss guy or something before. Called Disney's Villains' Revenge, basically a point and click game where the villains have changed the endings of certain stories to suit them. The Queen, Captain Hook and Queen of Hearts were the other villains featured.

Never played it, but ran across it during my villainous research.

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Next up is prob. Tangled. :(

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From: Raka_Putra | #442

Next up is prob. Tangled. :(

Just like it's going to be Aladdin </Brett>

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AdmiralZephyr posted...

GenesisSaga posted...

Next up: Atlantis: The Lost Empire

We can only hope. But the way this list is going, it's probably not. I'll say Winnie the Pooh (2011). It's getting pretty high for that one.

One of these two, I'm fairly certain. Anything else and I'll be a little irritated.

My guess is Fantasia 2000.

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#26 – Atlantis: The Lost Empire (2001)

Best Character: Milo James Thatch
Worst Character: The Atlantians minus Kida and her father

Okay, so this film might be a little high. I concede. It’s not very well executed at times and the characters lack development. But it’s a fun, action-packed film that I’ve always enjoyed watching. Plot holes aside, it has a fantastic setting and the characters are interesting. The action sequences are animated and designed well, and I love the look they gave Atlantis. In fact I just love Atlantis. I’ve always been interested in the myth so a film focusing on it intrigued me from the start.

Alright, let’s get rid of the bad quickly so I can move on and justify why I like it so much. For starters, the pacing is a little off. For example, after Milo joins the team they immediately fight against the Leviathan, and then it goes back to being really slow in the cave when they’re all getting to know each other. It’s kind of like it never really happened. The characters are also a slight problem I had with the film, as though they’re all fascinating for the most part (scowlface aside), they don’t get any kind of development at all. Perhaps there were simply too many good characters to develop, but other Disney films have done so in the past so that’s not a good excuse. Disney probably placed more of an emphasis on action in this film, which is too bad because the characters had so much potential. These are really just minor complaints… the major complaints follow:

Major problem I have with the movie #1: how does an entire culture forget how to read their own language? It’s not like it was lost with new generations since everybody lives to be super old. Not to mention they all forgot how to use their weaponry… did everyone just decide not to fly around on their machines for years until they forgot how to drive them? #2: Did the Atlantians put up any kind of fight to Rourk and his thugs? There were like 20 guys with guns vs. all of Atlantis and they just let them take away the life source. Not to mention Milo already revealed what they had to do to get their weapons working again. This is why the Atlantians are the worst characters. They just laid over and gave up when they had (or should have had) the technology to easily stop them.

Huh. That was a lot of bad. Psh, whatever. I still like this film a lot. The characters are a lot of fun. Milo is awesome, and I’m planning to give him a better run in the next SMDC contest so be prepared. Even the side characters are fun personalities. Sweet, Vinny, and even Kida and Audrey I enjoyed. Mole was annoying, but hey, those characters usually are. They could have used some more focus, but I enjoyed them for what they were. I mentioned it briefly above, but I also really enjoyed the animation for the film. It had a wonderful setting to work with, and I think their vision of Atlantis was a good interpretation. Mike Mignola, the creator of Hellboy, worked on the film and helped create the look I enjoyed so much with Atlantis.

Anyways I want to like this movie more for its potential, but it falls short too many times to rank any higher. In hindsight I probably should have placed it lower, but I do enjoy watching it a lot so I probably wouldn’t change its placement even if I were to do it over again. I wish more people felt the same way! Maybe then more people would have gone to see it in theaters and Disney wouldn’t have been convinced to cancel an upcoming underwater attraction at Disneyland. That could have been amazing!

Next Up: This film primarily consisted of original ideas from the Disney staff

I enjoyed Atlantis quite a bit as well. That aerial battle at the end was amazing. My main issue was just how predictable the angry military dude being the villain was. The first time I watched it I was like "come on Milo, you have to f***ing see this coming".

I'd actually rank it about as high as you did.

As for the hint...I'm gonna say Bolt since it wasn't really based off anything to my knowledge.

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Atlantis: The Lost Empire

Doc's Ranking: 26/51
Karo's Ranking 43/49

More garbage from the era when Disney was more concerned with being 'edgy' then telling a good story. Atlantis suffers from the same odd problem that Home on the Range does: inexplicably substandard animation despite having a very high budget. Not helping the movie any is the fact that the entire supporting cast are caricatures rather then characters, they exist simply to say a couple funny lines for a few cheap laughs, and that's all there is to them.
Let's not forget the whole sequence in the middle of the movie where the entire crew (numbering in the hundreds) dies off in a series of events, miraculously leaving all the stereotypes as the only survivors. What is this, Star Trek?


Best Character: Kida

Pretty much wins this award by default by being the only character that I cared what happened to.


Worst Character: Cookie

All the crew of comedic misfits were pretty shallow, but Cookie never even made me laugh, so he gets this honor.

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StifledSilence posted...

My main issue was just how predictable the angry military dude being the villain was. The first time I watched it I was like "come on Milo, you have to f***ing see this coming".

Eh, scowlface was worse. At least Rourke smiled every once and a while. Scowlface just scowled at everyone and seemed to have contempt for everyone she was working with. Pretty obvious villain right there. <_<

Well I knew she was his accomplice and all, but I suspected Rourke of being the mastermind. I'm sure Disney knew a grouchy soulless turd like scowlface wouldn't make a good main villain.

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