I disagree, but I think it's more about interpretation of the character than anything else. I would quibble with what you say at the end though - Renly tries to convince Ned to attempt a coup, Littlefinger tries to convince Ned to seat Joffrey as King and kill Stannis.
Well yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. It's not technically a coup, but rather a coup long in the making (i.e. the coup would have come in a few years when Joffrey comes of age).
-- When you have nothing to say, quote yourself ~ Solfadore
@Alec: Don't you remember my rants against Gillen/LF back in the days of Episode 2-3? Nearly everyone fell on me and ardently defended Gillen. I think the discussion must have gone on for about a page or so.
I expected pretty much the same range of reactions this time around! Oh well.
-- When you have nothing to say, quote yourself ~ Solfadore
I don't know enough to disagree in whole, but the one scene you spoke about during that time confused the living hell out of me as a non book reader because I thought he sold the scene well.
--
http://firsthour.net/screenshots/suikoden-2/suikoden-2-luca-blight.JPG The Cult of Personality.
Anyway I know the books are awesome because I am now caught up with the plot. I didn't like the books because the style (PoV) is something I hate in books <_<. Love the plot though!
--
http://firsthour.net/screenshots/suikoden-2/suikoden-2-luca-blight.JPG The Cult of Personality.
From: Solfadore | #104 @Alec: Don't you remember my rants against Gillen/LF back in the days of Episode 2-3? Nearly everyone fell on me and ardently defended Gillen. I think the discussion must have gone on for about a page or so.
I expected pretty much the same range of reactions this time around! Oh well. Most people weren't saying they liked the portrayal of Littlefinger, just that they disagreed with your interpretation of the problem.
Anyway I know the books are awesome because I am now caught up with the plot. I didn't like the books because the style (PoV) is something I hate in books <_<. Love the plot though! Please tell me you didn't just like... wikipedia the upcoming books or something.
So far I pretty much agree with you that most of the people you've named so far are low-tier for this show. The main exception being Natalie Dormer, I thought she was great. I was pretty skeptical initially about her casting because she's almost twice as old as book Margaery, but I thought she actually ended up being more interesting this way.
Carice van Houten was the other one you've named so far who I thought was better in the show than in the books.
How could any man NOT fall for Dany? I'm not sure there's a straight man In Westeros who won't be completely taken by her. Varys gets a hard on for Dany's Targ.
It's not just the looks but they way she projects herself when in Mother of Dragons mode. She's confident to a point of self detriment and passionate beyond rationality. She's the kind of woman who makes you want to be better, the one who can take you to higher heights and make life more exciting.
Eh... she's obviously good looking, and she's powerful (or will be), so she has a lot going for her. But the way she acted in the second season of the show seemed a lot more stupid than "confident". Randomly threatening people for no reason, didn't make me fond of her... it actually kinda made her seem like Viserys.
--
"Congratulations Thomas and Sylvia! But their happiness does not continue long..."
9. Gethin Anthony (Renly Baratheon) Okay, before we start, I’ve noticed a lot of you had him pegged as a supporting actor. That’s understandable, as he’s one of my two lead actors that really skim the line between leading and supporting (there’s also one supporting actor who’s really hard to peg down). Just to clear things up on the definition: Renly’s a lead because, while he doesn’t have that many scenes, he has the tendency to assume the leading role during these scenes. Think of the tourney grounds, the sex scenes with Loras/Margaery (these scenes were really all about him), the confrontation with Stannis, his death, etc. He was the focus of these scenes, and tended to dictate their flow, so I pegged him as a lead actor. Hope that’s clearer.
Compared to other actors above and below him, Anthony’s a bit inconsistent, which may be why he is on this tier and not the next, but also why he’s at the top of his tier. Some things he does exceedingly well, but in some scenes, he does falter a bit.
Renly’s kind of this really ‘soft’ character. He’s not passionate, he doesn’t want to be king with all his heart – he just does it because Loras told him that he would make the best king and he kinda got lost in the dream. He’s basically playing at being king – Anthony’s got that side of Renly pretty much in the bag. You can sense that he’s just out of place compared to the big players, and that he tries to overact a bit (Renly, not Anthony) to make himself seem grander than he is. I’m thinking of the tourney scene here. Anthony’s playing Renly with just a hint of awkwardness that helps define the character. It works.
However, where Anthony really shined for me was the scene with Stannis on horseback. Yeah, he didn’t have a peach, like he did in the book, which is a shame (let’s not make that big a deal of the peach, though), but that’s obviously all on the writers. I’d like you to think/scroll back to my write-up on Shae, when I said I used to see her not as a character, but as an actress playing a character. Anthony’s doing the opposite, if that’s possible. During that scene with Stannis, I felt like he was not a character, but a... real person, for lack of a better term.
It’s nothing mind-blowing; there’s no theatricals, no flashiness involved. It’s really underplayed. The little comments he make, about the battle being terribly confusing with the same flags, about Stannis being a ham, and, most of all, his final line (“I loved him once. Can you believe it?” – exceedingly well delivered with a touch of irritation) – all feel real to me. That’s quite a feat. I wanted to acknowledge that – the more we go up the list, the more often I’ll refer to these ‘real person’ moments.
At the same time, I’m not entirely convinced by his performance with Margaery in the tent (no, not in that sense, you perverts!). It just felt a bit too much, maybe? The guy (Renly, not Anthony) is a good actor – though of course it wouldn’t necessarily rise, I think he could’ve gotten a bit more into it, maybe? That said, maybe that’s the normal reaction in these kinds of situations.
So yeah, he does really well at times, plays the character very convincingly, but there’s just something missing for him to break the next tier.
Advance warning: there is quite a big gap between him and Lead Actor #8. You have been warned.
Best scene: His scene with Stannis on horseback, for the reasons outlined above.
-- When you have nothing to say, quote yourself ~ Solfadore
Coming up next in this riveting thriller of a topic: ---> The last member of the oddball family. Bolton's rival in terms of randomness, but they definitely deserve a kudo. ---> Another one of these middle-of-the-pack supporting actors, although the actor had a bit of a tougher job with the material/development of the character they embodied, which gets them a mention. ---> A really great leading actor who has been amazing throughout. It pains me to rank them so low, but it's a testament to the quality of the acting that such a great actor is ranked so low.
As always, when I say "actor", I can mean either actor or actress. You'll have to wait and see.
-- When you have nothing to say, quote yourself ~ Solfadore
The lack of a peach was probably one of the top five writing fails this season... and that's saying a lot. But unlike some of the other annoying changes, the peach would have taken almost no effort to include in what they were doing and they still left it out, so, major fail.
-- I made a living on time trial blowing myself off to cross the finish line at ludicrous speed. -transience
Not having Catelyn/Robb find out about Bran and Rickon before releasing Jaime/banging "Jeyne". The worst part about it is that it was CLEARLY a concious decision, as they inserted a scene with Theon massacring the birds. This is a writing decision where they clearly saw the direction and went a different way, and destroyed the character motivations of both Robb and Catleyn.
---BRONN TIER OF HONOURLESS PIG****-THROWING--- I’m sorry, guys, but we’re beyond the stage of me trying to find flaws in the actors’ performance. That stands for both leads and supporting actors. I might make a passing remark if one scene strikes me as strange, but that’ll be the exception rather than the norm. In any case, regarding this tier, we still have some “average” (this series’ average) actors to go through, but after that, we’re in the clear for some phenomenal performances – around #12 or so, I’d say.
But first, an oddball, and not the least of them.
16. Ben Hawkey (Hot Pie) **** yeah Hot Pie! Just kidding.
This was a character in the books that I absolutely did not care for in any tangible way. He was more annoying than anything in the book (although that doesn’t make him a bad character: it’s just that we’re not supposed to care for him). To make him memorable is no mean feat, and Hawkey managed to nail one of the best moments of Episode 2 with the glorious definition of a battle.
What a thoroughly well-acted scene! Hawkey sounds like such a simpleton – the stupid little eyes, the confident tone, the moronic, yet not excessively moronic delivery is great. And then he peaks when he actually has to explain to Gendry that a battle is when ‘they’ve got armour on’. “And who told you that?” says Gendry, “A knight? How do you know he was a knight?” Hot Pie: “He... had armour on.” The tone was perfect. The hesitation and mumbling was spot-on. I cannot conceivably see a better way to deliver that line. Amazing.
Aside from that, he was very consistent throughout and I don’t think I can pinpoint any flaw in his performance (although there was not much variety).
This was “How to make it on the Top 16 with one line in Solfadore’s rankings.” Admittedly, he probably shouldn’t be so high, but hey, I liked his character in the show, and since his lines weren’t that much better than in the books, I’m going to pin this on Hawkey.
Best scene: Gee, I wonder.
-- When you have nothing to say, quote yourself ~ Solfadore
Margaery Tyrell Tier of Political Seduction 9. Gethin Anthony (Renly Baratheon) 10. Michelle Fairley (Catelyn Stark) 11. John Bradley (Samwell Tarly) 12. Isaac Hempstead-Wright (Bran Stark) 13. Richard Madden (Robb Stark)
Eddard Stark Tier of Political Savviness 14. Kit Harington (Jon Snow) 15. Emilia Clarke (Daenerys Targaryen)
Supporting Actors
??? Tier (Top Tier) 1. 2. 3.
??? Tier (Amazing Tier) 4. 5. 6. 7. 8.
Bronn Tier of Honourless Pig****-Throwing 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. Ben Hawkey (Hot Pie)
Jon Snow Tier of Not-Knowing, yet Still Being Competent with a Sword (Good Tier) 17. Aidan Gillen (Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish) 18. Carice van Houten (Melisandre of Asshai) 19. Michael McElhatton (Roose Bolton) 20. Gemma Whelan (Yara Greyjoy) 21. Finn Jones (Loras Tyrell) 22. Robert Pugh (Craster)
Arya Stark Tier of Pointy-End Sticking 23. Natalie Dormer (Margaery Tyrell) 24. Dominic Carter (Janos Slynt) 25. Natalia Tena (Osha)
Bran Stark Tier of Combat Prowess 26. Sibel Kekilli (Shae) 27. Kerr Logan (Matthos Seaworth) 28. Esme Bianco (Ros)
-- When you have nothing to say, quote yourself ~ Solfadore
"Fun" facts regarding predictions: - Dinklage and Williams are unanimously held to be the best actors on the show. You'll just have to wait and see if that holds in my rankings! - Lena Headey and Conleth Hill also appear on everyone's list. Will they make the cut or will they falter before that? - There is no dark horse in these predictions, i.e. every actor appearing in your predictions has been guessed by at least one of your fellow competitors. - Despite that last fact, two actors (leads or supporting) that made *my* top tier(s) do not appear at all on anyone's list. In light of your predictions, I suspect one of them will be a somewhat controversial placement (although I've said the same thing of Gillen and we've seen how that played out).
-- When you have nothing to say, quote yourself ~ Solfadore
I'm not completely sure who you're counting as a main, but I'm assuming it's these 5 plus Cersei, Theon, and Sansa. Arguably you could put Joffrey as one of the mains in this season. In season 2 I feel like Jack Gleeson started hamming it up just a little bit and I really liked it - like the scene that they showed in the recap where he said he was going to give Stannis a red smile was a little too ridiculous to be taken seriously, but the way he delivered it felt like he was winking at the audience and it came out perfect. (I did still hate the scene with him and the prostitutes, but that was the writers fault).
Maisie Williams is great, but I have to give this one to Peter Dinklage. In the book my favorite characters are #1 Arya and #2 Tyrion, but Dinklage is better in the show (part of that might be the writing, he gets to do more while they trimmed out a lot of Arya's journey in favor of padding Dany's and Robb's stories with boring crap).
-- I made a living on time trial blowing myself off to cross the finish line at ludicrous speed. -transience
Well I guess if Renly bumped Stannis from the main character list, then he's gonna be a pick for top 3 supporting. And the other one is Sansa.
But I disagree about Renly, I agree that Genthin puts in a convincing performance, but I did not get that awkwardness in this season.
At the tourney, Brienne and Loras are looking at Catelyn disapprovingly, Loras first tells us they're too important to be addressed by anyone other then Robb himself and then selfimportantly asks her if Tywin Lannister has been marshed on yet, Catelyn shots him down both times, Brienne is giving her flake about not adressing Renly properly, Margeary is giving Catelyn some obviously false courtesies about her husband, Renly doesn't go for any of this bullcrap. He's the only one with the correct response to her arrival and takes her aside so they can talk in earnest. At the Stannis meeting, while I miss the peach, the more important part is the way Renly tells Stannis that nobody wants him for his king, he's not joking, he's not playing, he's superserious.
Then at his death scene, he's saying how he wants to make peace with Robb, restore the friendship between their houses and he's willing to let Robb keep his King in the North title to do it(!!!)
There are three times Renly gets upset, when Catelyn gets dismissive of his army calling them the knights of summer, when he talks with Littlefinger (he's perhaps the most effective in the show in cutting through his bull****) and when he's just failed to talk sense into his brother. Which again, are the right things to be upset about.
So why aren't we rooting for this guy other then that he's really gay (and I mean still kinda thinks his wife has cooties kinda gay) and putting him on the throne will obiviously involve killing of the rest of Baratheon male line, thus creating a big problem? I mean that's still a valid argument against him but it's suppose to be much more then that.
Well from season 1, we know why, first of all, he doesn't care about killing kids, he's being gauded into all this by Loras and at the end of the day while he looks like Robert, on the inside he's a politician like Varys, Littlefinger and Cersei rather then a soldier like Ned, Robert and Stannis.
Which is all okay for a supporting character but if I have to grade him as Season 2 main character then I feel his character portrayal is incomplete. He really seems right for the part of king outside of the bedroom, and even Tywin is ruled by his wife in the bedroom.
--
When you've got a pretty-boy monkey on your back constantly calling you a puppet, you hardly want to seem like you're happy to be used. - DSakaCharanJ
Thanks a lot for submitting your list, Kaxon! Always interesting to see who the favourites are! Although unfortunately you're a bit past the deadline; since you submitted yours after I started giving hints about the actual actors in the top tier, I don't think it'd be fair to the others to include you as an eligible contestant (unless they really don't mind, but yeah).
-- When you have nothing to say, quote yourself ~ Solfadore
Also, I actually think that Renly would've made the best king out of all the five pretenders we've seen - six, even, if we throw Dany into the mix - so I'm not holding his awkwardness against him. Joffrey and Balon are obviously not kingly material; Stannis sees the world in black-and-white and is led by the nose by a religious nutjob; Robb is alright but a bit stupid (basically Ned v. 2.0). If Ned hadn't been stupid and had actually sided with Renly back in Season 1, the series would've been over very quickly. Starks + Baratheons + Tyrells = not good for Stannis and the Lannisters. Although I suppose Melisandre might've still tried to pull a fast one on Renly.
I do still think that he didn't really want to be king, really - it was just a matter of circumstances and he kind of went with the flow. Like Robb with the whole King in the North bit. The only pretender who really, really wanted his crown was Stannis (although 'wanted' might not be the most appropriate word).
Regarding Renly's awkwardness, he's essentially trying to 'pose' as regal. We've all seen Renly back in Season 1: as smart and surprisingly not-a-douchebag as he was (which is more than I can say for the rest of the pretenders), he did not *look* like a king. In Season 2 - and especially in the tourney grounds, he's acting overly pompous to give himself the sense of grandeur that he lacks (it's a good and necessary move, but he needs to do it). If you want a 'natural king', look at Tywin Lannister. That guy doesn't need to fake anything - he's just 'kingly' by nature. Dany also has shades of this when she enters the Mother of Dragons mode. Now look at Renly again. A bit fake, don't you think?
-- When you have nothing to say, quote yourself ~ Solfadore
Now look at Renly again. A bit fake, don't you think?
Not looking at Season 2 alone, no I have to say disagree.
--
When you've got a pretty-boy monkey on your back constantly calling you a puppet, you hardly want to seem like you're happy to be used. - DSakaCharanJ
From: Rex915 | #130 Is it too late for me to post a list??
Lead Actors 1. Alfie Allen 2. Maisie Williams 3. Lena Headey 4. Peter Dinklage 5. Charles Dance
Supporting Actors 1. Jack Gleeson 2. Conleth Hill 3. Tom Wlaschiha
I know I'm breaking the Tyrion/Arya top two thing but Theon was just amazing this season. Again, yes, you're a bit late in submitting your list (doing so after I've already started giving out hints to the top tiers - it wouldn't really be fair to the others who had to submit theirs without any help from me). Thanks a lot for submitting it, still, though: I'm always curious to see these!
-- When you have nothing to say, quote yourself ~ Solfadore
Anyway I know the books are awesome because I am now caught up with the plot. I didn't like the books because the style (PoV) is something I hate in books <_<. Love the plot though! Please tell me you didn't just like... wikipedia the upcoming books or something.
No I read very detailed summaries of each of the books and then started to read all of the bios and stuff <_<.
I read the books without actually reading the books.
--
http://firsthour.net/screenshots/suikoden-2/suikoden-2-luca-blight.JPG The Cult of Personality.
I normally am not really a fan of "multiple PoV" books, but in Game of Thrones and the following books I thought it worked out really well.
I find it really hard to understand how somebody who clearly likes reading and literature would say "Well, I can't stand to read this, I'll just read everything I can about this"
Dany's storyline this season, like Jon Snow's, was a bit off.
But the one silver-lining is that she learned, there was growth. She learned that she can't just DEMAND people's respect and loyalty, she must prove it like she proved it to her Dothraki and Jorah(the reason Jorah is so dedicated in the first place)
She also learned to make other people prove themselves before believing. I think her and Jorah grow closer because she realizes he's proven himself pretty damn loyal.
--
Realo won gold at the Sex Olympics with a BROKEN FRIGGIN NECK.-Voltch
15. Eugene Simon (Lancel Lannister) I don’t know for you, but I’m getting a bit tired of all these write-ups for thoroughly unmemorable characters. Can’t wait until we reach the really interesting ones! Oh well.
So this writeup will be fairly short this time around because I just got back from a 9-hour workday and I’m a bit tired, and well... this is Lancel. I will say, however, that Simon has improved dramatically from the last season, as I used to rank him *very* low in my unofficial rankings (S1 Simon would’ve been around #25, I think) for a very artificial performance. Since then, I think he’s grown into the character, and since the character’s grown as well, that gives him more leeway to play with.
Following Robert’s death and his appointment by Cersei as Jaime’s “replacement goldfish”, the guy has gone very arrogant. That’s not too hard to play, and Simon does it well, although there’s nothing too mind-blowing there. However, from a rather average first scene (aka the first one with Tyrion, though he did have a short scene before that but no one cares about that one), Simon has really grown on me with a very consistent and convincing performance for the rest of the season.
He’s good at being this intense, but slightly cowardly guy, who knows that he’s screwed no matter what he does but still tries his best to keep his head out of the water – and failing badly. What I like most, though, is that Lancel undergoes a bit of unseen character development (we see the result, but not the journey), a development that Simon actually makes believable. He decides to stand up to Cersei in Blackwater, and though he’s still the very same Lancel we’ve seen all year, Simon tweaked his delivery and posture just a bit to try to sell this “Lancel with a backbone.” I’m a bit too tired to analyse exactly how he did it, but in any event, it works and I’m going to keep it at that.
And then Cersei pushes him and he turns back into the pathetic weakling he is. And that’s still credible as well.
Best scene: Ohhhh, that’s a tough one. I actually didn’t like his performance that much in his first scene with Tyrion, so I’ll have to settle on something else. Probably the second scene with Tyrion in the carriage, although Simon’s main strength is consistency, so it’s hard to pinpoint a scene in which he really shined.
-- When you have nothing to say, quote yourself ~ Solfadore
---TYRION LANNISTER TIER OF SCHEMES, PLOTS AND BROKEN THINGS--- Forget Lancel, Hot Pie and all the other guys. This is where it’s at. This tier is just freaking amazing. Would it be any other non-HBO show, any of these guys would nail the #1 acting spot. They’re just really, really good – and I have truly nothing to say against any of them. The top tier’s just more mindblowing, generally because of the material available to them.
If you like comparisons between leads and supporting actors, you’ll have to wait until about Supporting #6 or #7 to find someone of their caliber. All three of them are fairly close to each other, by the way, so I could easily see #8 being #6, and vice-versa. Why am I making this spiel? To make you understand that getting #8 is something to be proud of given the quality of the acting on the show. Which is good, because the next one on the dissecting table is...
-- When you have nothing to say, quote yourself ~ Solfadore
8. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime Lannister) I’ve said it time and again already, but I’ll just have to repeat it one more time: it’s really a testament to the quality of the acting that a guy like Coster-Waldau ranks so low. The man was unbelievable in the first season (definitely a top 5, maybe top 3 even).
Unfortunately for Coster-Waldau, there’s quite a world in terms of material between S1 Jaime and S2 Jaime (there’s no such thing as book 2 Jaime, so yeah). Season 1 allowed him a wide range of scenes and little subtleties, be they the trolling, ***-kicking, or just plain complexity of the character. These scenes with Ned were incredible, as were the ones with Cersei in which he’s just completely blood-chilling (“until you and I are the only ones left” – there’s a reason why that line was in all the trailers, and that’s because Coster-Waldau absolutely ran home with it. I have no idea how Headey managed to keep a straight face during that one).
That said, though, that’d be S1 Jaime. S2 Jaime is stuck in a cell for most of the year, and aside from one (exceedingly good) scene, has to limit himself to his ‘trolling’ persona. Coster-Waldau doesn’t mind, though, and even if the script limits him to a trolling role, he says **** it and explores around a bit to try to flesh out his character a bit. He’s just supposed to Hannibal Lecture Robb to show the latter that he sucks? “**** it, I’m going to shed some light on my character as well by making him appear as somewhat of a nice guy with hidden depths, yet still a troll/douchebag. And it’s going to work. Deal with it.” I think that might come from the fact that Coster-Waldau really likes his character a whole lot. Seriously: watch any interview of him, and you’ll see him defending every action his character makes. It’s awesome.
Why’s he ranked so ‘low’, then? I have no idea. HBO seriously couldn’t have picked a better actor for the role, but I just feel like overall, Jaime doesn’t deserve to really rank higher. He did a whole lot with little material, but others either did more with even less material, or were just too magnificently splendid that there’s no way they rank lower than Coster-Waldau.
Jaime should get way better material next season, so Coster-Waldau will be higher. Note that I don’t say “he better be higher”, like I did with Harington/Jon Snow. There is no doubt in my mind that Coster-Waldau will continue to nail his scenes.
There are no actors like him. There’s only him.
Best scene: There’s really one right choice here, and it’ll have to be the scene with Alton Lannister in the cell, because that’s the one time where he really has something consistent to play with, and since he’s good, obviously that translates into something incredible. Which reminds me that I’ve completely forgot to include Alton in these rankings. I’d rank him around Finn Jones/Loras. There, I’ve done it.
-- When you have nothing to say, quote yourself ~ Solfadore
