Board 8 > watching Avatar: The Legend of Korra - Long Live the Queen [spoilers]

(+) Yeah! (+)

SeabassDebeste posted...

listening now to 'to heal' - so gooooooooood

yeah thats the theme I wanted to link too earlier, but spoilers
the two battle tracks from these episodes are good too, especially Makos Sacrifice
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and so it ends. farewell to the best avatar, toph.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Also have adult cartoons even been able to show homosexuality? Other than in a totally mocking way at least? Or even things like fascism and "adult" ideas like that (esp in Steven Universe)?

I think kid's cartoons are really the ones pushing new concepts nowadays. It makes sense because kids are way more open minded.

Mission Hill had one I believe?
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I wasn't sure what to expect when watching this series. I kinda stayed about a season ahead of the entire write-up so it was really neat to read about someone else's opinion while it was still fresh in my mind.

Pretty awesome series I have to say. Season 2 of Korra was a bit weak, but the rest of it was amazing. Hope they have another one sometime.
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FINAL KORRA CHARACTER RANKINGS WHO WANTS SOME

Varrick
Kuvira
Korra
Zaheer
Tarrlok
Wu
Zhu Li
Lin Beifong
Asami
Amon
Bolin
Tenzin
Mako
Unalaq

not ranking: korra's parents, tenzin's wife, mako and bolin's amazing mommy, raava/vaatu, batar, batar jr, su yin beifong, opal, kai, meelo, jinora, jinora's sister, sparky sparky boom woman, ming-hua, ghazan, naga, pabu, any TLA character, the tourist trap guy who takes a pic of korra, the earth queen, the first avatar, the omnipresent homeless guy, the badger moles, bolin and mako's family, ryu the airbender, ryu's mom, the air bisons, kya, bumi
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I really like the Gundam. There might be some awkward parts to it, but I really enjoyed the Attack on Titan style guerrilla combat the Airbenders use fighting it. I like it even better than Attack on Titan!

I think Varrick is incredible this season, even better in S2. Love everything about him.

Zhu Li has to be one of the most competent characters I've ever seen. Whether it's assisting in research, planning Varrick's schedule, battling Kuvira's soldiers in a mech in a bid to escape, serving Varrick tea, pretending to backstab her boss and crush and pledge loyalty to a fascist warlord in a bid to keep everyone in the party from being locked up, being the bottom half of a platypus bear costume, discreetly but continuously sabotaging development on a superweapon, literally carrying Varrick on her back for miles during an escape, pilotting a mosquito like flying mecha against a giant mecha, or just always knowing what the thing was, Zhu Li was always giving 100% at every single thing the situation called upon her to do. She may not have spectacular abilities but it always felt like she was going exactly as far she possibly could with whatever means she had at her disposal. She wasn't quite a Mary Sue, because she often did not succeed at what she was attempting to do, but the effort was always there.

Meanwhile Varrick, who was quite a genius at many things - science, business, politics, showmanship - he also had tons of flaws, like getting in the way during the aforementioned mech fight to escape Kuvira's soldiers.. Zhu Li's only flaw was that she wasn't the one in charge I guess.

Korrasami is great -- really subtle and downplayed, which is unfortunate as that's surely due to creative limitations, but being so under the radar kind of adds to how sweet it is.

I liked the scene about Mako doing his lightning bending to destroy the power source, but Bolin coming back and saving him felt really cheap and made the scene pointless.

I really did not care for Wu whatsoever. I especially thought his big win with the song and the badgermoles sucked.

Toph was incredible - other TLA characters were kinda meh but Toph delivers both on reminding us on what made her great to begin with and by being such a perfect evolution of the character as an aged adult.

Overall, the last two seasons have just been such a step up over the first two. A large part of that is due to Zaheer and Kuvira, but I'd say they stepped up their game in general. I don't think they reached S2&3 TLA quality, but that's okay. They definitely made the show well worth the watch.

I think everyone's looking forward to an end of series recap, and comparison to TLA.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Varrick
Kuvira
Korra
Zaheer

Dats the good stuff

TLA is still on a completely different level than Korra. But Korra introduced so many awesome and unique concepts, it's just great that it exists at all. S3 and S4 are just so valuable.
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Poor Mako
only one above the incredibly boring villain
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I'm guessing between Mako and Tenzin is the line where he actually likes the character
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Mako is okay. I don't hate the dude but he's extremely forgettable.

CoolCly posted...

I really did not care for Wu whatsoever. I especially thought his big win with the song and the badgermoles sucked.

I really liked Wu, but his storyline in the final episode was a giant WTF. One of the things I didn't really feel like addressing in the writeup.

CoolCly posted...

I think everyone's looking forward to an end of series recap, and comparison to TLA.

Thanks! #motivation

foolm0r0n posted...

TLA is still on a completely different level than Korra. But Korra introduced so many awesome and unique concepts, it's just great that it exists at all. S3 and S4 are just so valuable.

To be addressed!
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Mako's only really notable character trait is he's a spatula.
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Yeah, Mako should've sacrificed himself in the finale. And if it wasn't a Nick show, he probably would've. Bolin popping up to save him just felt like a cop out.
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They were going for a happy ending that lead to new adventures. Having Mako die would have eaten the entire finale. That's why they had Sato die, who has minor enough of a character that it didn't overwhelm everything.
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So, Korra.

Disclaimer: I feel like it's a little unfair that I'm going to spend the entirety of this writeup comparing it to TLA. But here's the thing: There is no way in hell I watch this show without having seen TLA. And I think that the showrunners understood how important the connection between the shows was. It does plenty of standalone stuff to distinguish itself from TLA. But it's not a standalone show (the way you might say Game of Thrones can be separated from ASOIAF), and it's impossible for me to view it as such, so I'm mostly not going to try that.

The single biggest ceiling that TLoK kept running into - and this informs my entire criticism of the show - is that the seasons are almost entirely self-contained. Each season ends incredibly tidily. And that puts a serious cramp on the scope that each story can tell. We wind up trading depth for breadth in almost every instance.

Take the characters. TLoK never gave us a continuous story so we could delve heavily into the main cast. Each season had to introduce a new location, new villains, new stakes, and (often) new good guys as well. So we get an absolutely ginormous cast. In Season 1, we get the following relatively significant players, in roughly chronological order: Korra, her dog, Tenzin, Jinora/Meelo/middle kid, Lin Beifong, Tarrlok, Mako/Bolin, Amon, Asami, Spirit Aang. Compare to TLA Season 1: You had Katara, Sokka, Aang, Appa, Zhao, Zuko, Iroh, and Bumi. And TLA Season 1 was twice as long as TLoK Season 1. It took nine episodes for Tarrlok to grow beyond a caricature and eleven to dig into Amon... and then they're both dead in the finale.

Move right on into Season 2, and you get a new influx of characters: Bumi, Kya, Tonraq, Unalaq, the Twins, Varrick, Raava, and Vaatu. Of these, only Varrick gets a significant reprise in a later season (with Bumi's later role being mainly a joke). Bumi and Kya get amazing development in their episode with Tenzin. But then... they're done, and we mainly see Tenzin flitting in and out of the screen for the rest of the series's run. We develop such a wide case of potentially fascinating characters, but because there are so many characters and so little time, the payoff never feels sufficient.

One massive edge TLoK has over TLA is the weight of the themes that it gets to explore. TLA, great as it is, is focused on a prototypical, formulaic adventure/fighting fantasy, where kid gets stronger and finally beats the bad guy. TLoK's themes are invariably cut short either by censoring or short seasons, but we examine some of the following:

- the way societies change across time
- systemic inequality (Amon)
- growing a new world from an old scarred one (Republic City)
- power vacuums and nationalism (Kuvira)
- broken families and the lies that form them (Tonraq, the Twins)
- misguided attempts at redemption (Tarrlok)
- how perfect heroes can be imperfect parents (Toph/Aang's children)
- duty to family versus duty to your people (Air Nation)
- the power of propaganda to corrupt and to enthuse (Varrick)
- derailed career advancement and its effects on relationships (Mako/Korra)
- warmongering capitalism (Varrick)

The list feels incomplete. There is so much good stuff that's touched upon. Very few of them reach full/satisfying endings due to the limited scope of the show, but it's a massive credit that the material is explored.
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I'd say one of the contrasts against TLA is that TLA actually does examine much of this material. However, it generally doesn't do so in arcs, but in episodic style. One of my low-key favorite TLA Season 1 episodes is 'The Great Divide.' The message of 'get over the past and make nice' is alright, but the way it plays with your expectations about the nature of history and reality and what's important is surprisingly clever. It's also a total one-off. Contrast to Lin's ongoing intimacy issues (which get a mini-arc in S3 and a recapitulation in S4). Or Varrick's continued existence in Season 2 as this nebulous product/agent of nefarious capitalism. These issues get perhaps-too-tidy knots tied around them, but they're presented with more weight.

But yeah, the lack of cohesive storyline between the seasons is by far the show's biggest weakness. I can't blame TLoK for not having a single character who shines as bright as (combined power rankings spoilers!!) TLA's Toph. But I can blame TLA for not having an amazing series-long character arc like Zuko's, with a character like Iroh to support it. Or for building anticipation toward a final showdown against a villain the way we anticipate Sozin's Comet against Azula and Ozai. Or for wasting the Avatar State early and nerfing it (with Season 1's finale few moments feeling like the most 'series-finale'-ish bits of the series). Or for lacking the foresight to pull off a single moment as devastating as the ending of The Crossroads of Destiny. TLoK went wider and shallower than TLA, and it reaped less delicious rewards.
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As for the ranking the seasons... I don't have nearly the antipathy for S2 as many did. Unalaq is garb, but this was probably the relationship stuff at its best (and this is easily the best Mako); Varrick is introduced in all his amoral glory; the civil war was legitimately interesting; and learning about the Spirit World is pretty fascinating. In the end it might be the worst, but it's not by a wide margin, and it didn't really make me want to quit the show.

Season 1 is arguably the most interesting season, since it introduces us to Republic City (and seemingly the most effort is put into Republic City feeling alive). Korra herself is at perhaps her best here. I don't feel that Korra develops all that much during Seasons 2 and 3, but here she's fiery and passionate and enraged and impatient as we're introduced to her for the first time. Bloodbending is awesome and I love the contrast of Korra having to master Airbending. (FWIW, I really think that mastering Airbending would have made an incredible series finale.) The street life for the brothers, the love triangle episode, the pro bending (and DAT announcer), finding out Lin/Tenzin's relationship - it's all really, really good. Among its biggest flaws is the way it ends rather abruptly, but you can say that about any season.

I love the fights and new setting in S3, but plot/theme-wise it's by far the simplest. Zaheer is basically a big badass with a cool gang, and he gets his ass handed to him. The most 'interesting' stuff actually happens independently of the Zaheer threat - poor PR for the Avatar due to Spirit Vines, an Air Nation in need of rebuilding, a peek into Earth Kingdom politics. But while the intrigue is divorced from the visual feast, I'd say that the overall feel of the season is pretty damn good. Hard to say whether it or S1 is better to me.

Season 4 probably ranks #1. Kuvira is by far the best villain of TLoK due to her outsized impact on the season. S4, along with S3, feels like a step back toward TLA, where we're ultimately looking to beat the baddest man on the planet again. (That Kuvira is the baddest man on the planet is very unconfirmed, but I buy it for sure.) There's plenty of icing on this cake, too - time skips are mega-hype, Wu is fun, Varrick is back (albeit as a redeemer rather than a force of nature), and we get to meet the writers' very obvious ace up their sleeve in the return of Toph. In her three episodes, Toph feels more fully realized than almost all of TLoK's cast. It's not just because we knew her already from TLA - much of it comes from the power she's already been imbued from the shadow she cast over her daughters. And let's be real - she's just that much more colorful a character.

One sad thing: If I made a Top 20 episodes, I think 19 - maybe even 20 - of them would come from TLA. (The best TLoK episode, off the top of my head, is the S3 episode with Lin and Su blowing up at each other.) Maybe a Top 30 would have 2-5 entries from TLoK.

Loosely:

A3 > A2 >>> K4 > A1 > K3 > K1 > K2
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now for a real question - who would win in a fight, old toph or young toph?
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Another Great Divide lover? I thought I was the only one.

This is one of the most hated episodes, apparently.

K3 was still my clear favorite because after K2 there was absolutely no hope. Then we saw K3-1 and it was like... "that was a fluke, right"? And I kept waiting for them to ruin the series, but then The Metal Clan episode came and just blew everything out of the water. Definitely my fav Korra episode. It was just so surprising.

I can definitely imagine K2 being less egregious when binging the show, and with the expectations already set low. I still absolutely have the Wan episodes though.
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BurguerPants posted...

now for a real question - who would win in a fight, old toph or young toph?

Old Toph, I think. Young Toph's main advantage here is in stamina, but Old Toph should be cagey enough to beat Young Toph quickly - plus the advantage of knowing Young Toph in and out. The longer the battle goes the more the twelve-year-old is favored though!

ZeldaTPLink posted...

Another Great Divide lover? I thought I was the only one.

This is one of the most hated episodes, apparently.

Yeah, I think people are bothered by the awkward delivery of the 'Stop holding meaningless grudges!' message, which might seem obvious. Given its strong real life parallels, I think it's actually much cleverer than that.

(But the hate for the episode is absolutely why they take a shot at it in The Ember Island Players.)

foolm0r0n posted...

K3 was still my clear favorite because after K2 there was absolutely no hope. Then we saw K3-1 and it was like... "that was a fluke, right"? And I kept waiting for them to ruin the series, but then The Metal Clan episode came and just blew everything out of the water. Definitely my fav Korra episode. It was just so surprising.

I can definitely imagine K2 being less egregious when binging the show, and with the expectations already set low. I still absolutely have the Wan episodes though.

The Dai Li still being chumps and some of the Earth Queen's character traits took a lot of the hype out of the first half of K3 for me. Kai and Meelo and the Red Lotus getting repeatedly punked took it out of the second half. But yeah agreed about The Metal Clan episode. (I'll say that it feels weird that this episode took place in Season 3, which had such a strong main villain and was loaded ot the gills with action.)

K2 probably looks way worse if I don't know that there are two well regarded seasons following it and if I have to wait for a year to find out if it ever gets better. While it has clear highs, the way that season ends is a relative trainwreck... yeah, I definitely get it. Plus, multiple episodes of K2 end on extremely s***ty cliffhangers, and the season gets significantly less sophisticated with the reveal that Unalaq was EVIL ALL ALONG. As a pair, I think K2 and K3 might be the most flawed seasons.

Also 'have' the Wan episodes seems like a really weird typo. Is it 'hate' or 'love'? Could be either...!
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to be fair the red lotus did pretty well in every fight up until the last one
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Oh no I meant hate

It's a barely fanfiction tier origin story of the avatar
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meanwhile I liked them and never had issues with that origin
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htaeD posted...

to be fair the red lotus did pretty well in every fight up until the last one

Lots of little things annoyed me toward the end. Lavabending doesn't really make any sense. Ming-Hua's death was the absolute worst, getting killed by Mr. Zero-Personality. Zaheer appears to kill Tonraq, and then Tonraq just... doesn't die. Kai is prominent at his worst.

The villains basically felt like the underdogs.

foolm0r0n posted...

Oh no I meant hate

It's a barely fanfiction tier origin story of the avatar

Out of curiosity, which specific parts of it didn't you like? I don't necessarily disagree but would like to see the argument.
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adding in these super powerful divine beings that were literally never mentioned or even hinted at before, yet are the actual basis of everything, kinda irks me

The lion turtles granting and rescinding powers I don't mind though
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meanwhile other people complained that Mako didnt do lightningbending against Ming-Hua sooner
I sympathize on the Kai front at least and Tonraqs seemingly unneeded death fakeout

but they still didnt feel like underdogs, probably because Zaheer stuck in my mind the most
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Lavabending doesn't really make any sense.

Yea this kinda bugged me too. I can understand lava bending if there was already lava there, but being able to turn rock into lava seems like something only a firebender could do. Or at least a joint thing.
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BlackDra90n posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

Lavabending doesn't really make any sense.

Yea this kinda bugged me too. I can understand lava bending if there was already lava there, but being able to turn rock into lava seems like something only a firebender could do. Or at least a joint thing.

We see lots of instances of waterbenders turning water into ice (and vice versa). I don't really see a huge difference between that and turning rock into molten rock. In both cases you're adding or removing heat from the element you control.
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I thought they explained lavabending? You can vibrate the earth particles to heat them up into lava, pretty self explanatory. Lightningbending is by far the most nonsensical, but it's too cool for that to matter.
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I'm referring more to the fact that lavabending is a unique thing. Every single waterbender we see is capable of turning liquid water into solid ice but for some reason only Ghazan and Bolin are able to do it with earth. Also, lava doesn't work the way that it's portrayed on the screen. I tended to overlook this because Ghazan is such a G, but it got really annoying toward the end of the season when Bolin also got it.
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There are a lot of bending-related things that don't make any sense. Metalbending is initially this super-difficult technique that no one could figure out for thousands of years, and it took the greatest earthbender of all time deciding she didn't want to be trapped in a metal box to finally figure it out. Fast forward 60 years or so and almost every earthbender is a metalbender now (seriously I'm pretty sure we see more earthbenders who can metalbend in LoK than earthbenders who can't metalbend). It's kind of dumb and cheapens metalbending, IMO.
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Well it's just a technology. Same with discovering fire and electricity. It took a long time for people to think of the physics on a deep enough level to come up with that stuff, but after that, it's easily taught to anyone.

Except some people like Bolin apparently have trouble understanding metalbending. It's not that he's not technically able to, just not mentally. Like Korra with airbending in S1.

It makes NO sense that he learns to lavabend so well just like that though. They did hint that he was really interested in it so maybe he practiced a bit, but still...
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I kinda toom it to be that Bolin was able to lavabend for the same reason he couldn't metalbend.

He had the right mindset for it.
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Lavabending probably should be much easier and similar to water-benders making ice.

Lightning bending still makes no sense to me but its cool so whatever I guess.
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muddersmilk posted...

Lavabending probably should be much easier and similar to water-benders making ice.

this is what i was getting at, yeah

also, sad.jpg @ meng-hua not knowing how to redirect lightning when it's a waterbending-inspired technique.
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to be fair water arms dont seem like the good kind of arms to redirect lightning with
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It takes way more energy to vibrate the molecules to make lava I think
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Iroh may have been inspired by waterbenders when he developed lightning redirection but I think you still need to be a firebender to actually manipulate lightning through bending
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Yeah because it's based on breath energy like firebending
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Well if you think about it the temperature required to change water from liquid to solid and back to liquid is much closer to ambient temperature than the one required to do the same thing to rock.

Which is why we don't see lava in our daily lives.

So it does take a lot more energy, or in Ghazan and Bolin's case, a more difficult technique in order to make a more efficient use of energy.

Yeah, I think you're spot on about the self contained seasons. It's kind of neat that they had different stories to tell, but it usually didn't tie off very well.

I realize they didn't know if they'd be renewed for the first two seasons so they didn't want to leave things open ended, but eh. I'm still super bitter about Amon.

As for characters, yeah, you're right that you can't blame the show too heavily for not having someone as awesome as Toph. If creators could snap their fingers and create someone that good every time they wanted, we wouldn't have to put up with stuff like Kai. But you're also right that it's very disappointing there's nobody like Zuko with longterm character growth and change.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

I really like Asami, but she's dangerously close to a Mary Sue. If the story were about her, she definitely would be, so I'm glad she didn't get Airbending.

Maybe I'll give further thoughts on Sokka vs Bolin when I finish the series.

Sokka vs Bolin!
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CoolCly posted...

But you're also right that it's very disappointing there's nobody like Zuko with longterm character growth and change.

Other than Korra of course
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What changed about Korra?
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Lots of stuff
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CoolCly posted...

What changed about Korra?

mainly sexual preference (lennyface)
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I don't much changed about Korra at all. She's still hot headed, she's rushes into situations without a plan, she doesn't think through the consequences of her actions, etc. She's fierce and loyal to her friends.

There are scenes *indicating* she's growing, like dealing with the pain and crippling she was dealt from Zaheer, and her nice coming to grips with herself session with Toph... but what actual impact did it have on her? I don't think Korra at the end would make any of the decisions she made throughout the series that much differently.

I'd say she's a better Avatar than the day she first stepped foot into Republic City, but she's pretty much the same person.
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She's not trying to be a hero all the time anymore. She is more of a team player. I think this is pretty noticeable at the start of S3.

Not_an_Owl posted...

There are a lot of bending-related things that don't make any sense. Metalbending is initially this super-difficult technique that no one could figure out for thousands of years, and it took the greatest earthbender of all time deciding she didn't want to be trapped in a metal box to finally figure it out. Fast forward 60 years or so and almost every earthbender is a metalbender now (seriously I'm pretty sure we see more earthbenders who can metalbend in LoK than earthbenders who can't metalbend). It's kind of dumb and cheapens metalbending, IMO.

Doesn't Su state that only like 1% of Earthbenders can metalbend? I think we see it more because it's just that useful and those who can do it are prominent (metal police force started by Toph, Metal Clan started by Su, daughter of Toph)

I do know Toph figured it out (obviously), mastered it, then created a school to begin teaching people. I don't recall if the "coaching tree" grew very far out from Toph, but even in TLoK you can basically and easily trace all metalbending mostly directly, and certainly indirectly to Toph.

Lavabending is just wut
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ViviffTheMobile posted...

Doesn't Su state that only like 1% of Earthbenders can metalbend? I think we see it more because it's just that useful and those who can do it are prominent (metal police force started by Toph, Metal Clan started by Su, daughter of Toph)

Assuming this is the case, the show does a godawful job of telling and not showing. There are enough metalbenders for Kuvira to build an entire army out of them. Bolin's inability to metalbend is portrayed as a huge failure on his part, rather than a consequence of his being part of the 99% of all earthbenders who can't metalbend. The whole thing is handled very poorly.
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