Board 8 > SeabassDebeste finishes Buffy the Vampire Slayer and its spinoff [spoilers]

(+) Yeah! (+)

My Immortal posted...

From what I remember (someone else can correct me if I'm wrong) try to skip the opening credits of 5x01 if you can. It spoils something.

You're good to watch it after, or in 5x02.

That is correct, and only for 5x01. Intro ends at the 3:40 mark.

They literally advertised it before the season even began, so I guess they didn't feel the need to make a separate intro.

If he ever saw the title card on Netflix and has a good memory, it's already spoiled.
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pjbasis posted...

Are the comics no good?

I can't confirm for sure, but most everything I hear about them makes me not want to read them.
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It was just... boom dead. Anya!

I haven't read season 10 yet, but here's some highlights I remember from S8:

Buffy leads a worldwide Slayer army, robbing banks to help fund it. Xander is her top aide at Scotland HQ, with Andrew leading an Italian branch IIRC.

Willow and Kennedy are taking things slower, after Kennedy spent a month dead of mystical causes. Willow also learns magic from a demon she can only reach via orgasm, and also has sex with her. Obviously Kennedy does not know about this.

An entity calling itself Twilight works with the military and his own followers against the Slayers. Amy and her boyfriend - skinless Warren, apparently resurrected by her in the moments after Dark Willow left - are part of this.

Buffy gets put into a mystical sleep and has to be woken with a kiss from someone who loves her. Turns out to be a Slayer, and they have themselves a one-night tryst despite Buffy still considering herself straight. Naturally, Xander, Willow, and some others end up walking in on them.

Dawn is a giant. Seems she was dating a demon and he caught her kissing his roommate, so he cursed her.

Some vampires with Dracula's powers show up. They recruit him to help fight them, and end up battling in Japan. Giant Dawn has to fight a giant robot. It doesn't actually make sense but Andrew reaches maximum hype.

Faith and Giles are traveling together. She goes undercover to assassinate a rich Slayer who's using her powers for less-than-noble purposes.

Dawn gets changed from giant to centaur, creating an awkward moment with Xander when their castle is attacked and she has to tell him "Ride me." At some point after this she turns into a living doll and then finally gets uncursed, turning back to normal

One of Andrew's Slayers goes rogue, using guns and living a life of crime. She gets captured and Andre me learn she a valuable lesson.

Eventually, Twilight and the military send the Slayers on the run. They flee to wherever Oz ended up, get to meet his wife and kid, and then summon gods of the earth to help them fight the army. This doesn't go well because the gods also turn on the Slayers. Around this point Buffy gets superpowers (beyond those she already had) and takes down the gods. She and Xander have a few pages where they test out her new powers against the classic Superman descriptors.

Twilight is eventually revealed as Angel in disguise. He and Buffy share a literal flying fuck, at which point they wake up in a new reality. This, it turns out, was some ancient prophecy that a vampire and a Slayer would give birth to a new universe - problem is, this new universe will have to destroy the old to continue existing.

Spike shows up with a spaceship and a crew of sentient bugs. Dawn is not a fan. She and Xander decide to try a relationship after the current crisis is over.

Buffy convinces Angel that they should undo what they've done, and they punch their way back into the old one, where all hell is breaking loose. They fight their way to something called the Seed, source of all magic, which is being protected by that most unlikely of guardians - the Master, back from his death way back in season 1. He dies again, I think. Been a while so I'm not 100% sure there.

Giles comes to the conclusion that the only way to save the universe is to destroy the Seed. He runs to do so, but the new universe (also calling itself Twilight) is not pleased. It manifests as a griffon? lion? Something like that. Doesn't last long either way, because it takes over Angel's body and snaps Giles's neck before he can destroy the Seed. Buffy sees this and destroys it herself instead. Demons disappear, Angel goes back to himself, Willow laments the loss of magic.

The Slayer army dissolves, Dawn and Xander move to San Francisco together, and they take Buffy in on their couch. Hints are laid for Season 9 as Dawn spurs Buffy back to action.

I think that's all the big stuff
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I really like the comics (only read s8 and s9 so far) for the most part. It takes some time to get used to the change in media format.

SeabassDebeste posted...

In conclusion: Fuck Connor.

+1
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I think Anya's death was 'appropriately harsh, though I'm sad it happened. The worst part is probably that she'll never be appropriately grieved, thanks to the timing of things. Just the nature of ending things on an EPIC BATTLE.

I'm sorry to say that I had already watched (and already knew of) the spoiler in the Season 5 intro, sadly. We again have Netflix and unfortunate internet seepery to thank for this. But literally Spike is one the cover of Angel in the Netflix show. So... blah.

Anyway, Episode 1 beated and maybe the real spoiler is that Cordelia isn't in this season as a regular. FFFFFFFFFF
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Yup, I figured as much. They literally advertised Spike as being in it before the season began, so they really didn't feel the need to hide it even before it started.

Also it's not just Netflix. They just use the image from the Angel S5 DVD case!
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Yeah, that's a hard spoiler to avoid. But I was hopeful. Oh well.
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Using it on the Angel S5 DVD case... I mean, at least you've made it five seasons. Using it on the cover of the show? Angel was literally advertised as a show to check out for me while I was Netflixing Season 1 of Buffy.

There's still plenty of good reason to use... er, alternate means to watch...

(As a reminder, I stopped watching on Netflix when I was shown vamp-Angel holding Willow hostage as the preview image of the episode when Angel loses his soul. So... yeah.)
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Honestly, though, for my friend it had the effect of being way more surprised that Spike died in the first place, even if he immediately knew it wouldn't keep.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Using it on the Angel S5 DVD case... I mean, at least you've made it five seasons. Using it on the cover of the show? Angel was literally advertised as a show to check out for me while I was Netflixing Season 1 of Buffy.

There's still plenty of good reason to use... er, alternate means to watch...

(As a reminder, I stopped watching on Netflix when I was shown vamp-Angel holding Willow hostage as the preview image of the episode when Angel loses his soul. So... yeah.)

That's fine; I hear Netflix cut the musical episode a bunch (and possibly others too, but OMWF I've heard very specific omissions). It's why my wife and I will never part with our DVD sets. (We actually both had them when we got married; selling one pair was painful regardless.)
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Man those aren't real spoilers.

I knew about most of the character deaths of the series and I don't think it really affected my enjoyment.
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I just realized I completely forgot one of the mid-season 8 plotlines in that summary. Oops.
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Any spoiler is a real spoiler.

I'd say it's naive to claim that knowing spoilers doesn't affect your enjoyment. It doesn't necessarily reduce it, but it certainly affects it.
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buffy final thoughts later. might as well do this first.

ANGEL - Season 5, Episode 1

Recap: Angel Inc settles in managing Wolfram and Hart. Angel has to contend with a disgusting client who leverages his own son, and an equally disgusting subordinate who tries to kill the child. It's a tough job - especially hard to shed the publicity. Gunn, meanwhile, gets his mind enhanced to become a lawyer complete with judge-blackmailing.

This show feels entirely different now. Like, this feels like the pilot episode of a completely new show. And I'm really, really sad that it's getting only one season.

The new setting and characters in context are... well, they'll require time. Eve seems like a classic Whedon woman already - confident, smooth-talking, seductive when she wants to be, clearly up to no good ('You like to make an entrance,' Angel observes. 'You always open both doors when you enter a room?'). Harmony is back (and able to assist Angel to prevent him from dialing the sacrifice hotline - 'TO SACRIFICE A LOVED ONE PRESS THE POUND KEY'), and she has yet to hit the Harmony threshold yet. And man, everyone is dressed to the nines - Angel and Gunn in particular. Angel has translated his penchant for black trenchcoats into a black suit with a black dress shirt, while Gunn has suited up very classically.

One part of what makes ths episode feel so reboot/pilot-ish - an extremely early-season-feeling set of villains. The criminal mastermind here is straight out of Angel Season 1 - a very clearly temporary complete bastard whose presence enriches the world and also fills you with disgust. The overly pragmatic head of security is also an early infrastructural casualty.

We're set up for a full season of wonderful episodic settling-in as Angel Inc figures out what the hell to make of Wolfram and Hart. So sad. But let's rock it while we can.

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* No Cordy. FFFFFFFFF

* The cold open is phenomenal and sets the tone for everything, from the classic rescue, to the conversion of Batmangel into Bruce Wangel... to the opening fading in from a closeup of Angel's blank stare as he listens to the corporate speak in the background.

* DAT plot recap from Fred. 'Your run-on sentences have become a lot less pointless.'

* Wesley complains about Fred appending a 'y' to the end of a male coworker's name. Gunn wonders, 'Does that mean I can call you Wesle?'

* Delightful, sophisticated tracking shot at the beginning, circling around conversations with everyone before finally Angel reaches the floor - and he goes to Wes and Gunn, who were previously in the frame but the camera had left. Really cool.

* Seriously though, this is the best Harmony we've ever had without Harmony reaching the Harmony threshold. 'I'm a single undead girl working in the big city, I HAVE to start somewhere!' Her soullessness is on full display as she mourns Cordelia... and then immediately switches trains of thoughts. Oh, and of course, the dramatic threat from the defendant that the only ones left standing... are gonna be the ones already dead. Her thoughts: 'Well that's a relief!'

* What's the reference on Fred's poster?

* 'There is something else you should know about me... I have no problem spanking men.'

* 'You pathetic little fairy!' / 'I'm not little!'

* Angel blowing off that dude's head aww yeah. 'There is one thing more powerful than conviction... mercy.' (uses shotgun to detonate dude's head)/ 'What happened to mercy?' / 'You just saw the last of it.'
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Fun fact - they shot Wesley from the same side of his face as much as they could, because Alexis Denisof suffered a bout of Bell's palsy shortly before filming of the episode.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Oh, and of course, the dramatic threat from the defendant that the only ones left standing... are gonna be the ones already dead. Her thoughts: 'Well that's a relief!'

"I mean, HEY!" Love it.
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Angel straight up killed a lot of those dumb Wolfram and Hart goons and didn't give a fuck
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Finally caught up

Jeeze Jon I thought you were joking about those S8 highlights, but then I looked it up and nope! All real!
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Any spoiler is a real spoiler.

I'd say it's naive to claim that knowing spoilers doesn't affect your enjoyment. It doesn't necessarily reduce it, but it certainly affects it.

Fine, but I meant reduce it. No one talks about spoilers or avoids them because they don't want their experience to change laterally. It's 99% because of reduction. So that's what I mean by real spoiler. Something that "spoils" or ruins the experience.
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Up
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ANGEL - Season 5, Episode 2

Recap: Spike is evidently incorporeal and thus unkillable, which presents a bit of an issue, as he's decided to haunt Angel as he investigates a necromancer. There's a comic turn as Spike pretends to betray Angel to the necromancer but is really a triple-agent! The necromancer ends up dead, but Spike doesn't get a body.

Everything about Spike's introduction and the way he handles his situation is perfect. The deadpan 'bugger' as he dives at Angel and finds himself standing in Angel's desk, the decision to haunt Angel, his flickering in and out of visibility, and of course his decision to open up to Fred of all people: 'Help me.'

Both betrayals - the fakeout of Angel and the backstab of the necromancer - are really predictable, especially for us Buffy-watchers who already know Spike... Are there any actual Angel-watchers who didn't watch Buffy? But it's fun all the same. This is a really nice Monster of the Week for a show starting out and introducing its primary players - it perfectly characterizes Spike after his true face-turn.

Most important of the 'new' Spike characterization: the way he and Angel interact now that both of them are good guys. If this quality of character interaction holds for the rest of the season, it'll be incredibly clear why this season is hailed as the best: because these two guys are absolutely fire together. Angel himself really became a true character when the show stopped taking him so seriously all the time. I've enjoyed him a fair amount in his show. But the way he acts around Spike is entirely different and superior. He clearly sees Spike as a rival, and he's clearly supposed to be the big brother in the relationship. So it's hilarious when you see him trying to undermine Spike as 'NOTHING like me!' when Spike's soul comes up ('Didn't seem important.') He refers to Spike as his 'spiritual crisis.'

Spike, in turn, has none of the pressure Angel faces. He's already sacrificed himself to save the world, after all! This is his victory lap. Or it should be, except that he's quite annoyingly been tethered to a locket without solid touch. So rather than trying to assert himself the way Angel has to, he's free to find his amusement simply by undermining Angel. 'We're - I'm from Wolfram and Hart,' Angel says. Spike, noticing he's excluded, explains his own presence: 'I'm his date.' He knows Angel prides himself on being a badass champion of justice - so he taunts Angel about hiding behind the IRS and defending bad guys. So good.
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* This episode's dose of good-Harmony: 'You can't talk to me like that. We're not going out anymore!'

* Angel is now protected by the senior partners. Ouch!

* Gunn as a cunning lawyer is awesome. 'I know what you should go for... it'll hurt him. Bad.' Later revealed: It's the money they've gone after.

* Calling Wesley 'Percy' is fantastic. He was Head Boy!

* Angel's issues with Spike's redemption summed up: 'You spent three weeks moaning in a basement and you were fine! what's fair about that!' In fairness, I think it's suggested that Spike is lying when he claims that he doesn't feel the need to atone for his crimes... because the dude did some awful things as as vampire. But whatever, Spike doesn't need to make sense and there's no point in dwelling on this!

* A nice touch of visual continuity: The aesthetic in Wolfram and Hart is considerably brighter and cleaner than the grimy, dark interiors that defined this show from Seasons 1 to 4. But just as I was noting that, we experienced a classic Angel S1 cut to the Los Angeles skyline. Different building - same show.

* Should reiterate that Necromancer Hainsley is great as a Monster of the Week. He's evil, but he's so likable, too! Guy just wants to make a living on dead people!

* 'Preaching the horse's mouth' is a malapropism that really seems to bother Wesley and Angel.
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Spike is Angel's GOAT.
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Looks like it's buckets for you!
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Angel himself really became a true character when the show stopped taking him so seriously all the time.

Please be unbelievably hyped for 5x14
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Are there any actual Angel-watchers who didn't watch Buffy?

I watched Angel as it aired starting sometime in S2 or S3 through to the end, but I didn't give Buffy a real shot until years after both shows were off the air. On the surface they seemed like very different shows; basically, Angel looks like a guy show, and Buffy looks like a girl show. It's not until you actually watch them both that you realize they share a lot of the same appeal.
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Terastodon posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

Angel himself really became a true character when the show stopped taking him so seriously all the time.

Please be unbelievably hyped for 5x14

5x20 is good for this as well.
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SirBinro posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

Are there any actual Angel-watchers who didn't watch Buffy?

I watched Angel as it aired starting sometime in S2 or S3 through to the end, but I didn't give Buffy a real shot until years after both shows were off the air. On the surface they seemed like very different shows; basically, Angel looks like a guy show, and Buffy looks like a girl show. It's not until you actually watch them both that you realize they share a lot of the same appeal.

Angel is for guys/Buffy is for girls does seem to hold to a lot of standard conventions.

I think some of their core appeals are fairly different, though.
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Angel S5 is like the best season for Harmony Spike, and Angel.

Just a good season for Vampires that started on Buffy I guess.
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I also love Wesley's arc, despite preferring "not Illyria" to Illyria.
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pjbasis posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

Any spoiler is a real spoiler.

I'd say it's naive to claim that knowing spoilers doesn't affect your enjoyment. It doesn't necessarily reduce it, but it certainly affects it.

Fine, but I meant reduce it. No one talks about spoilers or avoids them because they don't want their experience to change laterally. It's 99% because of reduction. So that's what I mean by real spoiler. Something that "spoils" or ruins the experience.

The way I see it is: A watchthrough with no extra information can never be replicated. Even ify ou enjoy your subsequent watchthroughs just as much, it'll never be the same. So you necessarily lose the uniqueness of the first watchthrough if you're spoiled. To me that is important.

muddersmilk posted...

Angel S5 is like the best season for Harmony Spike, and Angel.

Just a good season for Vampires that started on Buffy I guess.

hype
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Did you know Harmonys actress originally auditioned for the role of Buffy? Imagine the world wed live in now...
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ClyTheCool posted...

Did you know Harmonys actress originally auditioned for the role of Buffy? Imagine the world wed live in now...

*goes to a weird alternate world where Charisma got the Buffy gig and Harmony's actress became Cordelia like what happened to Charisma irl. Then SMG becomes Harmony*
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Can easily see Harmony's actress as Buffy, actually. She's proven herself quite capable of delivering the quips that define Buffy. (To me, that's probably the highest degree of difficulty job involved with Buffy.)

Xander and Willow seem more irreplaceable to me, in the way that they turned out. Possibly Cordelia, too - another actress could definitely portray the role, but it would be a very different character.

... I just made myself so sad about Cordelia.
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Well, there is a hint of a world with a different Willow - the unaired pilot has someone else in the role.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR3J-v7QXXw
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I watched the unaired pilot around the beginning of Season 7. I like it because this Willow is far more believable as a complete social reject that Xander ignores than Alyson Hannigan, who's arguably the best-looking girl on the show.
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ANGEL - Season 5, Episode 3

Recap: The stress of everything is getting to Angel, who's shutting off a bit from his team. And on top of it, now he's trying to help out this chick with a huge rack with her time of the month. Saving her from being eaten, first by the werewolf who turns her and then by a strange werewolf-eating cult, re-energizes Angel. Meanwhile, Fred decides to get serious about helping Spike.

Here's what you might call a filler episode. It doesn't advance the main story arc in the least (we end almost identically to last week, with Fred promising to help Spike). It shows the passage of time. It introduces wacko Monsters of the Week with strange conclusions, a hot woman we'll definitely never see again, and Angel suffers some angst.

And for the most part, it's a rousing success. Not because of anything unique to the episode, but almost because the episode is so not unique. 'Unleashed' is like a proof of concept in episodic work for the new Wolfram and Hart format of the show. The one-off ingredients, enumerated above, are all of solid quality. Nina is a standard-issue decent minor character whose story has been told many times before. Yet directorial details help a lot here, with some silly INTENSE CUTS, but crucially effective scenes like the absurd focus on the blood sizzling atop the burgers on the skillet. Nina being entirely cooperative also fortunately precludes some of the worse possible tropes.

The main character flaw of the episode's guest star is an eagerness to withdraw from life, which plays off the main characters perfectly - specifically Angel. The episode begins with a spectacular little secret picnic by the former constituents of Angel Inc. Throughout the episode, the weight of the new company, the lack of freedom, and this Spike thing are crushing Angel, and he becomes snappy and short... but the power of helping others is reflected back onto himself. The final scene is a brilliant rotating tracking shot as Angel's luxurious office is slowly revealed in its full glory. It's a space that would be lonely for one, but is filled wonderfully by gossip about the hot werewolf and Fred ordering food and happy music and OH GOD THE DREAD... end of episode.

Huh. Don't see that type of optimism often! And it's exactly this type of community-building episode that makes me eager to spend more time with this gang.

Fred is slowly becoming the #2 character of the show. I'm optimistic this changes when Spike returns for real, but Wesley and Gunn have seriously faded to the background as Fred runs the point here with Nina. She's badass enough to fight off a few assailants who capture Nina. She's the one that Spike has confided in. And she's the #1 source of Buffy-style misspeaks at the moment. 'We're friendly, but... he's under me. I'm ON TOP OF him - professionally! ALL I'M SAYING IS, he's not evil.'

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* Nina really does have nice chemistry with Fred and Angel.

'I'm a monster.' / 'What, you're like... a Frankenstein?' / 'What? NO! I'm... I'm a vampire.' (Angel looks awkward)

'I guess he saves a lot of girls, huh.' / 'Girls... guys... puppies... he's pretty much an equal opportunity saver.'

'Angel doesn't date much... because of his... circumstances.'

'Like a family.' / 'Yeah! A demon-hunting... helpless-helping... dysfunctional family.'

Angel, on whether he's grown to like being a vampire:

'Well, being nearly indestructible is cool.'

* Gunn: 'I'm all up with the law now but DAMN it feels good to get my violence on!'

* 'Okay, Atlas, how about a shrug?' Lorne is still solid. Looks to me like fooling his clairvoyance detector is going to become a common theme, though. :(

* 'And a month from now, you'll have [a werewolf].' Angel has no fucks left to give.
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JonThePenguin posted...

Well, there is a hint of a world with a different Willow - the unaired pilot has someone else in the role.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR3J-v7QXXw

I don't think I've watched more than just the Willow scenes, so wow. Jonathan was in the pilot even though he didn't show up again until Season 2? Darla bites the dust off-screen... with Willow killing her? No Angel, Jesse, or Master? Xander much more affable, and better fit as a possible romantic pairing for Buffy than he ever was in the entire show?

And biggest of all...

STEPHEN TOBOLOWSKY?!?!
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Mega Mana posted...

Darla bites the dust off-screen... with Willow killing her?

That's pretty unclear. I don't think we ever see crosses actually kill a vampire, and they don't do the pilot's version of the death noise.
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just noticed that no one made a joke about robin wood being one letter away from robin hood :(
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He didn't deserve it
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hard to deny that
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robin wood disagree with you

i apologize

should kick you out of this topic on general principal imo
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ANGEL - Season 5, Episode 4

Recap: Spike's fading is becoming more severe. But as it turns out, it's not hell that's been doing him in, but a different Reaper - the spirit of a serial killer surgeocn who has been lurking Wolfram and Hart's spiritual cellar for centuries. Fred devises a one-time shot at restoring Spike to this plane, but he gives it up to save her and capture Pavayne instead. For now, at least the therat of fading away is gone.

I guess the season was never gonna bat 1.000. There are certainly highs in this episode, but almost every scene of Spike in the basement was mainly MOOD SETUP, which... doesn't really do it for me. I think that twelve Buffyverse seasons in is a little late to be trying to scare us when you're sending a character like Spike in with a bunch of no-namers.

One of the better scenes of the episode: Angel and Spike's heart-to-heart in Angel's office. 'Thought we could hang, is all. Couple of vampires from the old days, doing the... hangy thing.' Angel sneers that they're both headed to Hell... but eventually, the pressure of putting up his scowl gets to him a little, and he even admits that he kinda like Spike's poetry. Even Spike's mother didn't like his poetry! Angel really is a sucker for schmaltz, but then, he named himself 'Angel.'

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* I'm not sure Fred's technobabble has ever been worse. Her 'breakthrough' line this time is 'Cancel the radical...!'

* She's not bad otherwise, trying to comfort Spike by reassuring him: 'But popping up behind me was really scary! Look, I dropped my papers!' It's just weird that this much focus is being given to her and that she's this desperate to help Spike ('He's just like you - he's a champion').

* Angel talking budget issues with Fred the type of thing we need more of in the new Corporate Angel!

* There's a medium guest-star who's blonde but SURPRISINGLY CONFIDENT AND COMPETENT in her speech patterns. She is STRAIGHT-TALKING and NO-NONSENSE. She's like... slightly entertaining, but we've seen this so many times now.
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Imo that's the best eisode so far this season!
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ClyTheCool posted...

Imo that's the best eisode so far this season!

Perhaps, but the good news is he won't have to wait long for a better one!
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