Board 8 > Mercenaries Offseason and Planning Topic: If you want peace...

(+) Yeah! (+)

...Prepare to bitch at the admins for being lazy and not getting standings up on time.

Anyway, jokes aside, this topic is a combination of the old Hypothetical Mercs topic series and a staging ground for new mercs projects. If you want to post a cool build, post it here! But primarily, what I want to talk about right now is a new project I'm aiming to debut in about a week or two: Mercenaries, Draft Mode Edition. The gist of it is a game that takes out the long term strategic econ aspects and focuses on teambuilding, arguments, and proper ability use, where leaders select mercenaries in a snake draft format and then do battle with each other in a round robin, with the best teams proceeding to a quick set of playoffs. The basic rules I'm thinking of are such:

-Eight Players select 11 mercenaries of any upkeep level seen during Mercenaries 4 in snake draft format. Maybe two Pure Supports as well afterward, maybe. We'll see.
-Players proceed through a single-format round robin, fighting 7 Bo1 matches (likely in weekly fashion, though maybe it can be bi-weekly or every five days instead to speed things up), in a rotating tier format. Top 6 teams advance to playoffs.
-Playoffs are Bo3, using M4 playoff rules. 3rd and 6th face off first, as well as 5th and 4th. Winners face the teams with the #1 and #2 records during the regular season. Winners advance to the finals, where a winner will be determined.
-Every player gets a daily GP stipend to spend on terrains, abilities and such (but can't buy new mercs). Thinking 20 GP, which can be saved up over the course of the season + playoffs.
-To ensure upgrades come into play, XP gains are doubled.

The idea is to create a faster, simpler version of Mercs that can be played without quite so much commitment as a normal season, to fill the gap until Mercenaries 5 or Mercs Imperium comes along (I haven't forgotten the idea of map-based Mercs yet!). Right now, I'm looking for feedback and possibly interest. Would anyone be up for playing this kind of game?
---

I'm not that familiar with some of the intricacies, but it seems hard to have these large, mostly static rosters fighting over and over and not lead to a significant amount of repetition. I imagine it's difficult for very large matches to develop interesting arguments because of how much of a cluster it's likely to be. Am I misunderstanding part of the rules?
---

Sceptilesolar posted...

I'm not that familiar with some of the intricacies, but it seems hard to have these large, mostly static rosters fighting over and over and not lead to a significant amount of repetition. I imagine it's difficult for very large matches to develop interesting arguments because of how much of a cluster it's likely to be. Am I misunderstanding part of the rules?

You get 11 mercs total but can only field five at most before abilities, and usually there's mercs you won't be able to field at all (for example, in a mid tier match you can't field someone like Sephiroth unless you pay him down with GP - and then he costs you $$$$ and extra roster slots, limiting you to at most four fighters instead of five). The idea is you have to spread your fighters, and there should be a decent amount of variability because the mercs you use to defeat a certain teamcomp are gonna be different from the ones you field to beat another one.
---

Oh. I knew about that part but you didn't mention anything about tiers in the post so I wasn't sure if it applied. I'm probably interested then.
---

Of course in practice we saw in M4 that it doesn't matter if Sephiroth reduces your team to four slots instead of five, one Sephiroth >>> whatever lower tier scrubs the other team is fielding
---

Possibly! But this is why a draft game might be fun - all the options are available. Want to build a team of five 6s and five 5s? Go for it. Nothing's stopping you. I want to see what happens when econ ceases to be a limiting factor to teambuilding and it just becomes about building the best team you can and then stomping everyone else!
---

tag
---

Taggin' this. Personally I think a draft is a great, quick way to manage teambuilding. Question, I suppose, would be if we allowed for exchanges later down the line, or like at the halfway point release another field or mercs/rebalance those undrafted and allow for a Superstar Shakeup™ to prevent fatigue from teams who just got into the game and might not have made the best decisions insofar as team comp goes.

If we're limiting gold to 20 though, might wanna reduce initial terrain bid to an automatic 1 GP for the defender as opposed to 3 GP. Allows for the solid 20 to be a decent number. Certain abilities (hi O&S, Yojimbo) would likewise have to be reduced to fit the general meta.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

up for playing this kind of game

---

Kamekguy posted...

Taggin' this. Personally I think a draft is a great, quick way to manage teambuilding. Question, I suppose, would be if we allowed for exchanges later down the line, or like at the halfway point release another field or mercs/rebalance those undrafted and allow for a Superstar Shakeup™ to prevent fatigue from teams who just got into the game and might not have made the best decisions insofar as team comp goes.

If we're limiting gold to 20 though, might wanna reduce initial terrain bid to an automatic 1 GP for the defender as opposed to 3 GP. Allows for the solid 20 to be a decent number. Certain abilities (hi O&S, Yojimbo) would likewise have to be reduced to fit the general meta.

it's 20 G/battle so it can stack up - I feel like this allows for terrain bonuses to matter less than it looks like they might since you have to balance your day to day expenditures with preparing a stockpile for the future.

As for swapping picks, hmm...tempted to say you can make swaps at the end of each cycle (so after the third and sixth battles), but once in playoffs you're locked in. Thoughts, everyone?

(As for rebalancings, I'm probably just going to drop some early bans/nerfs before anyone picks instead - name banning k6, removing Breeding from Slime, and making it so Lightning counts mercs saved as draft picks so she doesn't break the game overmuch. I don't think any other characters need tweaks for being hugely degenerate?)
---

I feel like there just shouldn't be 7 upkeep mercs in an iteration like this

It should feel more like chess instead of "I have to kill this one thing or I lose"

I would be interested if it started in like, July lol
---

Chaeix posted...

I feel like there just shouldn't be 7 upkeep mercs in an iteration like this

It should feel more like chess instead of "I have to kill this one thing or I lose"

I would be interested if it started in like, July lol

I'm pretty strongly convinced this won't be an issue because there's a much bigger supply of 6s available relative to player number here than there was in M4, plus enough 7s that everybody can have one and nothing can prevent it if they really want one (because snake draft means everyone gets a pick). Time will tell if I'm wrong or not, but if possible I want to just let people run wild and do whatever they like instead of applying nerfs. I'm only kneecapping Slime and taking out K6 because they were both admin derps and I see no reason not to just axe them since we're not exactly starting halfway through a season, and Lightning would be breaking the draft process by gaining 'extra mercs' if her saves didn't count as actual selections. My own experience is that 7s are kinda overrated - the finals hinged on whether a 6/week could solo a team with a 7 or not, after all.
---

Tag

Can't you explain a"snake draft" for the uninitiated?
---

1234432112344321 etc
---

trdl23 posted...

Tag

Can't you explain a"snake draft" for the uninitiated?

FFD beat me to it. Everyone picks once, then you go in reverse order from last pick to first and repeat (so last pick always picks twice, back to back). It makes it fairer to get a low spot since you can snatch a primo second pick even if you don't get your ideal first.
---

Oh, okay, yeah that's how you raredraft at the end of a team draft.
---

if you want peace prepare for wartime
---

greengravy294 posted...

if you want peace prepare for wartime

This was the correct way to do the quote seriously

but what would mercenaries be without our patented Merx Humour (TM)
---

You know, now that gravy and I have had time to chill, I feel like we'd admin together well.
---

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Chaeix posted...

I feel like there just shouldn't be 7 upkeep mercs in an iteration like this

It should feel more like chess instead of "I have to kill this one thing or I lose"

I would be interested if it started in like, July lol

I'm pretty strongly convinced this won't be an issue because there's a much bigger supply of 6s available relative to player number here than there was in M4, plus enough 7s that everybody can have one and nothing can prevent it if they really want one (because snake draft means everyone gets a pick). Time will tell if I'm wrong or not, but if possible I want to just let people run wild and do whatever they like instead of applying nerfs. I'm only kneecapping Slime and taking out K6 because they were both admin derps and I see no reason not to just axe them since we're not exactly starting halfway through a season, and Lightning would be breaking the draft process by gaining 'extra mercs' if her saves didn't count as actual selections. My own experience is that 7s are kinda overrated - the finals hinged on whether a 6/week could solo a team with a 7 or not, after all.

okay well cap it at 5/week then and do 2 tiers.

the simpler the better and it's rewarding to have all your characters feel like they do something. strong characters making weak characters useless isn't fun and means you will have rosters that completely ignore 2/weeks and 4/weeks will only be grabbed if they're broken or make low tier a complete joke (assuming they can be brought down. if not then 4/weeks won't get drafted at all). a 2 or 3/week can still be of use against 5/weeks but as soon as 6/week+ gets involved it's totally muddy.
---

Definitely interested in this. (Tag)
---

okay well cap it at 5/week then and do 2 tiers.

the simpler the better and it's rewarding to have all your characters feel like they do something. strong characters making weak characters useless isn't fun and means you will have rosters that completely ignore 2/weeks and 4/weeks will only be grabbed if they're broken or make low tier a complete joke (assuming they can be brought down. if not then 4/weeks won't get drafted at all). a 2 or 3/week can still be of use against 5/weeks but as soon as 6/week+ gets involved it's totally muddy.

spoilers 2s are ability slaves and this is not a surprise

like that's not an issue. That's how the game works. 4s add a lot (see: Flynn, Doomguy, Jensen, Alucard, Alice...) but 2s have never amounted to anything aside from adding abils. I'm not going to remake the game for this, this is a small project to allow newbies to get their feet in the water and veteran players who don't enjoy the econ and political aspects of mercs to have fun. If you think 6s are going to be such a threat I recommend spending all your picks buying antipaydowns like Y'shtola or Algus to shut 'em down - with 20 GP per week and no increases ever, paydowns are not something you can easily commit to without forfeiting something else.
---

Tag.
---

Which reminds me one of the things that irritates me most about M4 is that we never got an actual picture of Alice's combat worth. She was in exactly one fight on my side, that I got to after it was over in time to see an assload of lying and bullshit
---

it really sucked yes

Lots of mercs I'd love to test still
---

Fuck you.


Super Fuck you. My body is ready for this shit though
---

Definitely looking like we got enough interest for this round robin

I'm thinking we'll start it next week on monday - we'll do signups Monday and maybe tuesday, draft until the end of the week, and start the games proper on the 24th. Probably doing a single round robin (AKA 7 game season) for this first attempt. If everything goes well, the game should be done or close to done by the end of july. If anybody wants to start pre-researching mercs, here's the page we'll be drawing them from: http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/90630326/Characters%20by%20Upkeep

As above, caveats: Slime has no Breeding upgrade, Kha'zix flat out doesn't exist, and Lightning's Savior upgrade will be used pre-game to select mercs for her to absorb, and each one will cost a pick. You'll draft 11 mercs plus one Pure Support (you can get more if you want, but they'll come from your 11 merc allocation). Choose wisely!
---

I'll sit this one out, but I'll be interested in watching.

This topic isn't just for the round robin planning - it's also for working on builds, so I'm putting one down here: Donkey Kong.

The problem with DK as is in Mercenaries right now is that he gets no respect, none whatsoever. His animal buddy Rambi is more hyped up than him. That's gotta change. So, let's give his build another shot...

---

Donkey Kong (Donkey Kong series)
Heroic Male Beast
Upkeep: 2/week
Minimum Bid: 35 GP

Donkey Kong is as he appears in Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze. He has access to all of his feats from the rest of the Donkey Kong series (including Donkey Konga and the Jungle Beat series), as well as his Smash Bros movesets, a fully upgraded Coconut Gun from Donkey Kong 64 and a handful of Orange Grenades from the same game, though his bongos will not have any special effects. He also has access to <KONGS*10> seconds of Strong Kong invulnerability, which he may activate at any time but not cancel once engaged.

He's the leader of the bunch, you know him well (Passive): Donkey Kong's always empowered by the presence of his monkey allies! He will have access to 10 seconds of Strong Kong per mercenary present on his side of the battle with Kong in their names, including himself.

He's bigger, faster, and stronger too (Start of Battle): Once every four weeks, DK can show off why he's the first member of the DK Crew (HUH!), increasing his size, speed and strength by 100% per Kong present on his side of the battle, himself included, for the duration of the fight.

(Character Upgrade, 15 EXP)

So they're finally here, performing for you (Customization): Every week, DK may choose to bring one fellow Kong with him from Donkey Kong 64, all of them fully upgraded and equipped with their appropriate weapons and a handful of Orange Grenades. Their musical instruments will not have any special effects. DK may not choose the same Kong twice in a row. They're all considered Heroic Male Beasts with the exception of Lanky, who is Neutral, and Tiny, who is Female. Additional distinctive details are indicated below:

-Diddy Kong: As he appears across Tropical Freeze and the Donkey Kong series. Has a Rocketbarrel Pack with one minute of fuel, cancellable at will. His electric guitar is just a normal electric guitar and won't damage enemies in any way.
-Tiny Kong: A Mini Monkey panel will be placed at her team's starting location and at the center of the terrain for her to shrink and grow with.
-Lanky Kong: He has no style, and also has no grace, but retains his funny face, however.
-Chunky: May use Gorilla Gone without a panel for ten seconds, non-cancellable.

Should any Kongs be released as separate mercenaries, they will be removed from this list.

(New Start of Battle, 10 EXP)

Giant Punch (Start of Battle): Every other week, DK may hit an enemy with a fully charged Giant Punch, as seen in the Super Smash Bros series. They will start the battle having taken damage from this attack, and there's an 8% chance (rolled post-rosters) that they will be KO'd outright by it instead. DK's owner may choose the numbers that'll trigger the KO before it's rolled.

(New Pre-Battle, 5 EXP)

Put Your Hands Together If You Wanna Clap, As We Take You Through This Monkey Rap! (HUH!) (Pre-Battle): Once every three weeks, DK may lead his teammates in a stirring performance of the DK Rap. All Kongs will start the battle with greatly increased morale, and one randomly selected opponent, post rosters, will come to battle with the DK Rap stuck in their heads.

Terrain: DK's Tree House - A circular field with large banana trees with DK's treehouse in the center. Banana peels lie everywhere, courtesy of DK. It is surrounded by dense jungle, and access to the rest of the DK64 world is banned.
---

Build commentary: DK is a pretty simple guy, so I'm giving him pretty simple tools and synergies - buy nameable mercs to get longer invulnerability and crazier boosts, pick a terrain where he can get to the enemy team on time before his boost runs out, and watch him go bananas on them. The Kongs are a replacement for his animal buddies so he can gain clear utility from them (flying scout Diddy, extra muscle Chunky, comedy factor Lanky) and also increase his Strong Kong duration and boost his Bigger Faster And Stronger Too. With a brief spurt of protection, he should be able to act as a highly disruptive melee fighter.
---

Oh i didn't realize you wanted new people.

I will sit out if you get the interest then i guess.

Also willing to be a coach for someone new.
---

Eddv posted...

Oh i didn't realize you wanted new people.

I will sit out if you get the interest then i guess.

Also willing to be a coach for someone new.

I'll be taking a mix! No idea what exact proportion I'll go with, but this is meant to help old players scratch the itch for a new game just as much as it's meant to give new players a chance to learn without all the hassle of a full game.
---

Jungle Beat DK is beautiful and makes me happy I want him.

I admit i have no idea what to go with for draft strat. Gotta admit i definitely am considering g just trying to draft my old team!
---

I'm gonna play
---

no one ask me to play because I'm stupid enough to do it

someone screencap this and show it to me in a few months
---

@FFDragon, please play with us.
---

09/24/11 9:42:00 PM
18

Gallows extends Yuri’s fusion to 10 total targets

Yuri fuses himself with Altair, Gallows, Rudy, Lu Bu, Cole, Death, Diablo, Zero, X-D ‘Dragoon’, and Sam Fisher. The fusion will be a Villainous Male Otherworldly.

Dracula grants The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’ Wacky Vampire Immunities

Marisa offers The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’ three mushrooms – 2x Power, Halved Casting Time, and Uninterruptable Casting of Offensive and Healing Magic, and Unlimited Duration, Halved Casting Time, Doubled Effect, and Uninterruptable casting of buffs. The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’ accepts.

The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’ has a Karmic Overload.

The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’ has some objectives and won’t hesitate to carry them out.

The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’ is Riding Red Hare. Poor guy.

The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’ transforms into Dark Seraphim. Well, part of him does. And that part starts in Dark Seraphim, too.

The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’ prevents HK From using his Analysis Complete ability. Sorry man, couldn’t risk it.

The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’ has Justine, Zephyr, Stare Roe, Arc Smash, Phazer, Death’s Portrait of Ruin Form, Demon Bane/Fire/Fire Orb, VG-05/NG-05/MIN-50/FBG-50/DCY-50/HMS-50, and Zero’s Ultimate Form. Yes, the only thing fisher contributed was allowing Grabner to bring a second Primary. “What a great merc”.

The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’ is not afraid of the numbers of Kerrigan and Fortune. And who can blame him?

-------

Kerrigan activates the trigger to make the Hydralisk stay in the battle as a neutral entity

BD Joe is such a nice guy, he’s going to take HK for a ride.

Sniper Wolf is bored, and fires her gun at Bartz’s eyebrow without hurting him. She’s that damn good.

Gilliam is going to trigger a TIME JUMP to bring Dracula back to the past.

Dracula is the LORD OF CASTLEVANIA

When he asks, I sacrifice Fortune to join him. I’m sure she won’t mind.

Dracula is piloting The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’

The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’ warns Fortune to stay away from this fight. If she does not comply, The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’ will have no choice but to accept infinite Fury Mode this fight

The X-D Altairgallowsrudylubucoledeathyuridiablozerofisher ‘Dragoon’ makes Hydralisk see barry as a horrifying lovecraftian monster.

best
---

While I'm checking if there's anything else that needs tweaking for draftmerx, I wanted to ask - what do you guys think of this set of conventions? The idea is to make sure voters can always agree on what the match is actually about, so everybody's talking the same language:

-No mercenary can ever start in a location where they would die instantly or end up ringed out of the terrain before abilities. If there's no room within a terrain to fit them, the terrain will stretch out until there's at least one yard of available, moving, safe space.
-Damaging abilities can never be dodged unless their writeup explicitly says they can.
-No matter how incongruous it might be, damaging abilities only damage the specific mercenaries targeted with them and nobody else, unless stated otherwise.
-Abilities that put a mercenary under some kind of effect without specifying a duration are curable, unless stated otherwise, should the afflicted mercenary's team have the means of helping them and the opportunity to do so. Nothing can cure 'timed' abilities, unless stated otherwise.
-Mercenaries are assumed to remember any fights they participated in, and no others. This does not make them magically aware of the presence of previously fought opponents.
-'Parameter boosts' refer to standard RPG parameters unless stated otherwise (such as 'attack', 'speed', 'magic power/defense', etc.).
-Supplemental materials are valid sources of feats and hype for any mercenary, but are subject to voter discretion (and may be ignored if they contradict the game). Supplemental materials directly included into the writeup (example: Advent Children Complete for Cloud Strife and Sephiroth) are indisputably valid.
-Matches have no set ending point, and may take as long as the voters feel is necessary to resolve (in the context of the fight's IC resolution - they still only last 24 hours for us). If a match is truly judged to be endless, voters may petition for a tie to admins.
-Mercenaries don't know who their enemies are unless an ability informs them. Mercenaries do not have any intrinsic ways of telling enemies apart from neutral NPCs or distinguishing between multiple enemy teams.
-Mercenaries may share weapons and items with each other freely. Whether they will is up for debate, of course.

These aren't set in stone, and I may end up not using any for draftmercs - I want to hear everyone's thoughts and see if they're worth implementing or need changes.
---

I don't like "don't know who their enemies are". It makes villainous mercenaries have very distinct advantages in being willing to essentially attack everything unprovoked while only heroic mercs of the Yuri Lowell or looser ethics code would attack a foe who hasn't been proven an NPC. I prefer the idea of that "they know the names of their enemies and a rough description of appearance" (i.e. "your enemy is an old man named Dr. Wily who has a robot", "your enemy is Lu Bu. He wears black armor") - as actual mercenaries would be unlikely to go in blind, and that rule especially becomes dumb as we go further in and mercenaries recognize enemies but "nope rules say different". I know an earlier sentence SLIGHTLY contradicts this, but the wording to "don't know who their enemies are unless an ability informs them" is strong. Nothing about parameters, of course, but I like the idea that, say, Bowser will know he's fighting Mario rather than him discovering it mid-battle and losing it like the Bowser-tier moron he is.

Everything else feels fine. I'd add in "mercenaries start as far away from each other on a terrain as possible, with the terrain owner starting 'deeper' in the terrain if possible.'

The key reason that convention exists is so that shapechanging and deceitful characters can abuse NPC-laden terrains to spring ambushes on the enemy team - think Spy from TF2 mimicking someone else's appearance and luring the enemy team into a trap. It makes it so those mercs have some 'base' value and the question is if they can pull the con off due to their skill vs the enemy's wariness, as opposed to 'everybody has a smart HUD that turns red when they stare at an enemy merc even in disguise'. I think changing it to 'have a rough description of their targets (before abilities)' does make some sense, and also works better with 'mercs remember past fights', but I want to hear as many opinions as possible on this because these clarifications should have a reasonable consensus behind them, instead of just being wholly arbitrary.
---

There really needs to be some blurb defining where exactly teams are starting out, yes. I mentally went "Opposite ends of the terrain like they were fighting in Team Fortress 2" but that was the kind of thing open enough to be very, very screwy
---

Oh I agree, albeit TF2 Spy should just really have the ability to NPC disguise. Having no idea what he looks like means that if, say, Lazarovich sees Spy disguised as Random Zora in Hyrule, he's gonna kill him on the spot because "he exists, could be enemy, I will test him". Meanwhile if he knows "Spy is a guy with a facemask", the disguise actually works.

DeathChicken posted...

There really needs to be some blurb defining where exactly teams are starting out, yes. I mentally went "Opposite ends of the terrain like they were fighting in Team Fortress 2" but that was the kind of thing open enough to be very, very screwy

This is something I'm honestly tempted to do for every terrain for clarity tbqh - at least after draft selections. It'd be a buncha work but probably worth it anyway.
---

Two days until the signups go up. Keeping this from purging in the meantime!
---

note to self: vote in every match I see and see how long it takes every player to think I am biased against them.
---

DoomTheGyarados posted...

note to self: vote in every match I see and see how long it takes every player to think I am biased against them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoASvAPdCi0
---

Hey, that's a pretty good impression of me. I like it.
---

That whole comic is fantastic.
---

I am not familiar with the whole comic, unfortunately. It does remind me that I need to buy Persona 5 though.
---