Current Events > "there is a problem with islam"

(+) Yeah! (+)

ok so what's your solution then

because bombing towns and hospitals and civilians is clearly working so well
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Hey don't talk to me man, I didn't do any of that crap
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Mostly though I just want people to recognise that there's a problem with Islam, and not paint the usual bullshit #notallislam as if telling me that is an argument.
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Why don't we just take the Middle East and push it somewhere else?
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pinky0926 posted...

Mostly though I just want people to recognise that there's a problem with Islam, and not paint the usual bullshit #notallislam as if telling me that is an argument.

define the problem
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Just quarantine the fucking middle east and let them destroy themselves. They'll either figure it out or they won't.
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mario2000 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Mostly though I just want people to recognise that there's a problem with Islam, and not paint the usual bullshit #notallislam as if telling me that is an argument.

define the problem

How long have you got?
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pinky0926 posted...

mario2000 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Mostly though I just want people to recognise that there's a problem with Islam, and not paint the usual bullshit #notallislam as if telling me that is an argument.

define the problem

How long have you got?

however long it takes for you to define the problem and propose a solution
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mario2000 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Mostly though I just want people to recognise that there's a problem with Islam, and not paint the usual bullshit #notallislam as if telling me that is an argument.

define the problem

Countries where Islam is the primarily practice religion or law of the land have--thousands of honor killings per year, treat women like they are subhuman, it is illegal to be gay (not marriage...just being gay), illegal to speak blasphemy about Islam and is punishable by imprisonment or death, have civil wars both in the past and present day resulting in the thousands of annual deaths of innocents and fighters over which denomination is the correct one, radicalized terrorists that commit mass murder in the name of Allah, and illegal to marry or be Christian...which often result in death or heinous acts such as acid throwing or beatings.
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EggplantParm posted...

mario2000 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Mostly though I just want people to recognise that there's a problem with Islam, and not paint the usual bullshit #notallislam as if telling me that is an argument.

define the problem

Countries where Islam is the primarily practice religion or law of the land have--thousands of honor killings per year, treat women like they are subhuman, it is illegal to be gay (not marriage...just being gay), illegal to speak blasphemy about Islam and is punishable by imprisonment or death, have civil wars both in the past and present day resulting in the thousands of annual deaths of innocents and fighters over which denomination is the correct one, radicalized terrorists that commit mass murder in the name of Allah, and illegal to marry or be Christian...which often result in death or heinous acts such as acid throwing or beatings.

so what do we do about it
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mario2000 posted...

ok so what's your solution then

heavy restrictions on immigration from islamic majority countries. let them sort themselves out, it's none of our business what they choose to believe and how they choose their country and quality of life to be like.
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mario2000 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Mostly though I just want people to recognise that there's a problem with Islam, and not paint the usual bullshit #notallislam as if telling me that is an argument.

define the problem

Islam doesn't have a problem. Islam is a problem.
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Rika_Furude posted...

mario2000 posted...

ok so what's your solution then

heavy restrictions on immigration from islamic majority countries. let them sort themselves out, it's none of our business what they choose to believe and how they choose their country and quality of life to be like.

of course this also means that we'll stop bombing them and giving them reasons to hate us and cease our 3 trillion dollar war, right? since it's none of our business

ChromaticAngel posted...

mario2000 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Mostly though I just want people to recognise that there's a problem with Islam, and not paint the usual bullshit #notallislam as if telling me that is an argument.

define the problem

Islam doesn't have a problem. Islam is a problem.

so what do we do about it
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The answer isn't going to be found on CE. You keep repeating that question as if it's an argument when it's not.
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Alright, I'll see if I can summarise:

- the usual problems that all Abrahamic religions have faced over the centuries: patriarchal oppression of women, violent source material that provides a convenient platform for zealots to do terrible things with, persecution of people of other religions, horrific institutionalised barbarism (death to apostates, capital punishment for homosexuality, etc. etc)
- unlike the other Abrahamic religions it hasn't quite gone through the cultural enlightenment in the countries where it is the dominant and institutionalised religion
- incompatibility with freedom of speech - for example muhammad and south part, and Salman Rushdie still has a fatwa for his head, 40 years later
- The end goal of most strains of Islam is to provide a complete doctrine for the way of life, including education, law, human rights, politics - essential, in its current form its not compatible with secularism

Solution: let's just not be ok with any of that, and speak up about it and reject it whenever it rears its ugly head in this way. And maybe if the majority of Islam becomes a religion where the majority of practitioners practise their faith privately then I'll have very little issues with it, other than the general personal philosophical issues I have with religion in general.

And since the mods have a special interest in me right now, let it be said that criticising the actions and beliefs of many of the people who practise Islam does not constitute hate speech. Nor is it saying that Muslims are bad people and that I hate them, because none of that is true.
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The problem is, it exists
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Vyrulisse posted...

The answer isn't going to be found on CE. You keep repeating that question as if it's an argument when it's not.

surely with so many users here who circlejerk day and night about how awful and terrible islam is, at least one of them must have an idea, right?
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mario2000 posted...

of course this also means that we'll stop bombing them and giving them reasons to hate us and cease our 3 trillion dollar war, right? since it's none of our business

sure. we don't need to be bombing them, we don't need to be sending drones to kill civilians and destroy hospitals. the armies can fuck right off out of their countries. The only time a military presence should be there is when we locate high profile terrorist leaders that need to be killed immediately.

The reverse is true though. We don't need islamic immigrants and refugees in our countries unless they can demonstrate they will integrate with our cultures. many islamic communities in western countries have outright stated they have no intention of integrating with society and prefer to stick to themselves. we don't need that here.
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pinky0926 posted...

Alright, I'll see if I can summarise:

- the usual problems that all Abrahamic religions have faced over the centuries: patriarchal oppression of women, violent source material that provides a convenient platform for zealots to do terrible things with, persecution of people of other religions, horrific institutionalised barbarism (death to apostates, capital punishment for homosexuality, etc. etc)
- unlike the other Abrahamic religions it hasn't quite gone through the cultural enlightenment in the countries where it is the dominant and institutionalised religion
- incompatibility with freedom of speech - for example muhammad and south part, and Salman Rushdie still has a fatwa for his head, 40 years later
- The end goal of most strains of Islam is to provide a complete doctrine for the way of life, including education, law, human rights, politics - essential, in its current form its not compatible with secularism

Solution: let's just not be ok with any of that, and speak up about it and reject it whenever it rears its ugly head in this way. And maybe if the majority of Islam becomes a religion where the majority of practitioners practise their faith privately then I'll have very little issues with it, other than the general personal philophical issues I have with religion in general.

And since the mods have a special interest in me right now, let it be said that criticising the actions and beliefs of many of the people who practise Islam does not constitute hate speech. Nor is it saying that Muslims are bad people and that I hate them, because none of that is true.

i can't really think of anyone who is ok with killing and oppression, so if that's all it takes, then I guess the problem is solved???
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Seems like the best way to go about fixing the problem with Islam is to stop deliberately destabilizing their countries. Studies show that people frequently turn to religion when times become tough so it's not really a huge surprise why so many people in those areas cling to Islam.
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Asherlee10 posted...

I don't disagree, but then I think about Sikh muslims. Aren't they ridiculously peaceful?

Sikhism has nothing to do with Islam <_<

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism
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VectorChaos posted...

Just quarantine the fucking middle east and let them destroy themselves. They'll either figure it out or they won't.

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mario2000 posted...

ok so what's your solution then

For starters, don't let tens of thousands of them into western countries with incompatible values.
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Rika_Furude posted...

mario2000 posted...

of course this also means that we'll stop bombing them and giving them reasons to hate us and cease our 3 trillion dollar war, right? since it's none of our business

sure. we don't need to be bombing them, we don't need to be sending drones to kill civilians and destroy hospitals. the armies can fuck right off out of their countries. The only time a military presence should be there is when we locate high profile terrorist leaders that need to be killed immediately.

The reverse is true though. We don't need islamic immigrants and refugees in our countries unless they can demonstrate they will integrate with our cultures. many islamic communities in western countries have outright stated they have no intention of integrating with society and prefer to stick to themselves. we don't need that here.

good point, we don't need islamic immigrants and refugees, hell we don't need immigrants and refugees of ANY kind, let's just stop taking in anyone at all and become a completely isolationist nation. take that founding fathers!
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mario2000 posted...

so what do we do about it

Go all Underground railroad on this shit.

Convince people to deconvert. Help people who want to leave but can't because they are dependent on their family leave. Help people escape from abusive households. Etc.

It's not a problem that will be fixed overnight, but shutting down borders like we're Madagascar during flu season makes the problem worse.
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mario2000 posted...

i can't really think of anyone who is ok with killing and oppression, so if that's all it takes, then I guess the problem is solved???

The problem is the intentional and anti-intellectual way of dismissing any criticism raised at Islam the ideology as "islamophobia", which is a terrific little way to sideline any intellectual debate and criticism of dogma and politics.

Incidentally, since when is it necessary to have the complete solution to a complex problem if you want to be allowed to criticise the status quo? I don't understand what you're trying to say.
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I wish CE could go a day without this bullshit.
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Polling from the Islamic world shows that the "not all Islam" thing really only applies to terrorism. Rejection of women's rights and their subjugation (while the radical left ironically uses that symbol of oppression as a positive image, lmao) is a serious issue in the Middle East going by populace belief and law.

Rejection of gay rights in these countries vary from imprisonment to death penalty to literal concentration camps. Gays are as safe in the Islamic world as Jews were under Nazi-occupied Germany. It's a fucking disgrace, and it's one of the most infuriating things about people who defend the religion. Christianity does many things - but mass support for execution of gays is not one of them. Not in today's world, at least.

There's also the fact that most of these countries support the death penalty for apostasy, meaning these countries are the very right wing theocracies the left has been terrified of for years. They shit talk Christianity on a constant basis but will defend Islam at every turn without realizing that countries like Iran are the end result of what happens when theocrats gain enough power.

This ultimately turns into a complicated juggling act.

-Prevent alt-right turbobeards from gaining power since their end goal is violence. They don't want reasoned debate, they want fear to gain power.

-Prevent the radical left from gaining power since they will (and have, going by Sweden) turn a blind eye to radical Islam and possibly even coddle it since they're full-in on the victim narrative.

-Treat Muslims with respect but emphasize that the values of the Quran as is are not congruent with free Western society. They're human beings, not children for the left to coddle or monsters for the right to scream about.

-Slowly transform Islam into something comparable to modern Christianity where the consequences of its influence are increasingly benign.

This is probably one of the most complicated issues facing the world today. How you transform a religion this large? Improve the stability of the regions it exists in. This will hopefully allow social revolutions among younger groups to take place, which Western nations should support while ideologically pressuring the harsher aspects of the Islamic religion. Hopefully the dominos fall from there and Islam becomes increasing progressive (by its incredibly low standards.)

This is obviously a decades-long process but it's far and away the best solution.

The left needs to stop deflecting to past Christian atrocities like they're somehow relevant. Why are the Crusades relevant, exactly? They're brought up constantly. I agree they were an atrocity, but how is it relevant to the modern era?

I don't see Christian knights walking around the Middle East pillaging villages in 2017. In fact, you'll find that Christianity - in the many hundred years since the Crusades - has become relatively tame due to technological advancements and social revolutions that forced the hand of religion institutions to become more progressive.
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mario2000 posted...

EggplantParm posted...

mario2000 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Mostly though I just want people to recognise that there's a problem with Islam, and not paint the usual bullshit #notallislam as if telling me that is an argument.

define the problem

Countries where Islam is the primarily practice religion or law of the land have--thousands of honor killings per year, treat women like they are subhuman, it is illegal to be gay (not marriage...just being gay), illegal to speak blasphemy about Islam and is punishable by imprisonment or death, have civil wars both in the past and present day resulting in the thousands of annual deaths of innocents and fighters over which denomination is the correct one, radicalized terrorists that commit mass murder in the name of Allah, and illegal to marry or be Christian...which often result in death or heinous acts such as acid throwing or beatings.

so what do we do about it

Reject it in its entirety. Organized religion can be poisonous. Islam, for the most part, is poisonous.


pinky0926 posted...

Alright, I'll see if I can summarise:

- the usual problems that all Abrahamic religions have faced over the centuries: patriarchal oppression of women, violent source material that provides a convenient platform for zealots to do terrible things with, persecution of people of other religions, horrific institutionalised barbarism (death to apostates, capital punishment for homosexuality, etc. etc)
- unlike the other Abrahamic religions it hasn't quite gone through the cultural enlightenment in the countries where it is the dominant and institutionalised religion
- incompatibility with freedom of speech - for example muhammad and south part, and Salman Rushdie still has a fatwa for his head, 40 years later
- The end goal of most strains of Islam is to provide a complete doctrine for the way of life, including education, law, human rights, politics - essential, in its current form its not compatible with secularism

Solution: let's just not be ok with any of that, and speak up about it and reject it whenever it rears its ugly head in this way. And maybe if the majority of Islam becomes a religion where the majority of practitioners practise their faith privately then I'll have very little issues with it, other than the general personal philosophical issues I have with religion in general.

And since the mods have a special interest in me right now, let it be said that criticising the actions and beliefs of many of the people who practise Islam does not constitute hate speech. Nor is it saying that Muslims are bad people and that I hate them, because none of that is true.

/topic
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pinky0926 posted...

mario2000 posted...

i can't really think of anyone who is ok with killing and oppression, so if that's all it takes, then I guess the problem is solved???

The problem is the intentional and anti-intellectual way of dismissing any criticism raised at Islam the ideology as "islamophobia", which is a terrific little way to sideline any intellectual debate and criticism of dogma and politics.

Incidentally, since when is it necessary to have the complete solution to a complex problem if you want to be allowed to criticise the status quo? I don't understand what you're trying to say.

point to where i ever said the word "islamophobia" itt besides this post
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Mod bait
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Reject it in its entirety. Organized religion can be poisonous. Islam, for the most part, is poisonous.

have you tried to rescue your muslim friends/coworkers/colleagues from their poisonous religion?
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mario2000 posted...

point to where i ever said the word "islamophobia" itt besides this post

You did not, I was speaking in general terms. There is a very real problem with dissent towards Islam's practises and teachings being labelled as bigotry and Islamophobia.
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pinky0926 posted...

mario2000 posted...

point to where i ever said the word "islamophobia" itt besides this post

You did not, I was speaking in general terms. There is a very real problem with dissent towards Islam's practises and teachings being labelled as bigotry and Islamophobia.

i mean i made this topic to be about the problems with islam but ok
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mario2000 posted...

Reject it in its entirety. Organized religion can be poisonous. Islam, for the most part, is poisonous.

have you tried to rescue your muslim friends/coworkers/colleagues from their poisonous religion?

Lol you're not even being subtle at this point.
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EggplantParm posted...

mario2000 posted...

Reject it in its entirety. Organized religion can be poisonous. Islam, for the most part, is poisonous.

have you tried to rescue your muslim friends/coworkers/colleagues from their poisonous religion?

Lol you're not even being subtle at this point.

I am asking a serious question.
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mario2000 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

mario2000 posted...

point to where i ever said the word "islamophobia" itt besides this post

You did not, I was speaking in general terms. There is a very real problem with dissent towards Islam's practises and teachings being labelled as bigotry and Islamophobia.

i mean i made this topic to be about the problems with islam but ok

In essence I was defining one of the problems (not being able to have open dialogue about Islam), and then proposing the solution (we need to be able to have open dialogue about Islam).
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pinky0926 posted...

mario2000 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

mario2000 posted...

point to where i ever said the word "islamophobia" itt besides this post

You did not, I was speaking in general terms. There is a very real problem with dissent towards Islam's practises and teachings being labelled as bigotry and Islamophobia.

i mean i made this topic to be about the problems with islam but ok

In essence I was defining one of the problems (not being able to have open dialogue about Islam), and then proposing the solution (we need to be able to have open dialogue about Islam).

sure as long as it's an honest intellectual open dialog and not "LOOK AT HOW BAD MUSLIMS ARE AREN'T MUSLIMS JUST THE WORST??!?!" like some of the "stop calling me islamophobic!" people seem to do
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The problem is blaming the Islamic ideology rather than the geopolitical scarcity that has largely driven the modern culture within heavily Islamic nations, primarily those in the middle east.

The issue has a lot more to do with economics and power than it does religion.
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CEbeards don't even know which brown people to hate XMFD

Asherlee10 posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

I don't disagree, but then I think about Sikh muslims. Aren't they ridiculously peaceful?

Sikhism has nothing to do with Islam <_<

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism

TIL. I actually thought it was a sect of Islam.

You're not the only one. It's why so many people keep on attacking them in the streets.
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COVxy posted...

The problem is blaming the Islamic ideology rather than the geopolitical scarcity that has largely driven the modern culture within heavily Islamic nations, primarily those in the middle east.

The issue has a lot more to do with economics and power than it does religion.

Don't even try to explain this to the CEo-Nazis. Their pea brains won't comprehend it.

I've never met a Sikh who wasn't the complete embodiment of gentleness. Now there's a religion that makes fundamentalism look appealing.
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COVxy posted...

The problem is blaming the Islamic ideology rather than the geopolitical scarcity that has largely driven the modern culture within heavily Islamic nations, primarily those in the middle east.

The issue has a lot more to do with economics and power than it does religion.

I think this is the real issue tbqh
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Ragnarider posted...

COVxy posted...

The problem is blaming the Islamic ideology rather than the geopolitical scarcity that has largely driven the modern culture within heavily Islamic nations, primarily those in the middle east.

The issue has a lot more to do with economics and power than it does religion.

Don't even try to explain this to the CEo-Nazis. Their pea brains won't comprehend it.

Is everyone a Nazi to you if they don't wholly accept everything about other cultures?
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Asherlee10 posted...

I don't disagree, but then I think about Sikh muslims. Aren't they ridiculously peaceful?

.......

Oh Jesus Christ Ash v_v
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who posted
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