Current Events > NYC city workers faked daycare center water supply lead test results

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-faked-day-care-centers-lead-water-level-test-records-article-1.2686760

@Antifar
@hockeybub89

What happens when the regulations and the regulators go unchecked? Who regulates the regulators? Many leftists have argued that companies and states cannot be trusted to do the right thing, and that this means we need regulations and regulators to make sure the right thing is done.

But it looks like regulations/regulators are not solving anything, as much as they exist to put money into the pockets of state employees and the wealthy politicians who make the laws.

@Questionmarktarius

Thoughts on solutions? Perhaps autonomous water testing equipment that actually gets things done for a fraction of the cost?
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Law makers are keeping 20% of chemicals and their effects secret

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/03/AR2010010302110.html

"Of the 84,000 chemicals in commercial use in the United States -- from flame retardants in furniture to household cleaners -- nearly 20 percent are secret, according to the Environmental Protection Agency, their names and physical properties guarded from consumers and virtually all public officials under a little-known federal provision."
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robots won't solve this either since the people making the robots can fake them actually doing what they are supposed to do
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darkphoenix181 posted...

robots won't solve this either since the people making the robots can fake them actually doing what they are supposed to do

Robots are infallible so we won't need anyone to check to see if they're doing their job properly.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

robots won't solve this either since the people making the robots can fake them actually doing what they are supposed to do

Make robots that make robots that won't do that.
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meingott posted...

@Questionmarktarius

Thoughts on solutions? Perhaps autonomous water testing equipment that actually gets things done for a fraction of the cost?

Wait, what?
When did I become an expert on this sort of thing?

darkphoenix181 posted...

robots won't solve this either since the people making the robots can fake them actually doing what they are supposed to do

True, but they're more reliable than humans. Technology can be built to be accurate, too - it's why we have airplanes and monitoring instruments for answering questions about the universe.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

meingott posted...

@Questionmarktarius

Thoughts on solutions? Perhaps autonomous water testing equipment that actually gets things done for a fraction of the cost?

Wait, what?
When did I become an expert on this sort of thing?

You have a more conservative position on these matters, no? So I was interested in how you'd go about fixing the problem.
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meingott posted...

What happens when the regulations and the regulators go unchecked?

Stories like this! Where it seems the problem is belatedly being addressed thanks to a city-run audit and investigation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/25/nyregion/city-failed-to-test-for-lead-in-water-at-day-care-centers-audit-says.html

Mr. Miller said the city has amended the issues brought up in the audit. All of the day care centers under the city’s purview, including the 70 identified in the audit, have now been tested for lead in the water, he said. The city also said it planned to start posting the results of each location’s water tests online.

Ms. Worthy-Davis said that the lack of clarity in terms of lead-testing protocol for day care centers predated the de Blasio administration, and she noted that “a bureaucratic process made testing standards vague beginning in 2011.”

This month, the health department proposed a change to the health code that would require lead testing at new centers within 30 days of their opening. They would also be required to undergo testing every five years.

But a spokesman from Mr. Stringer’s office said the changes only came about from the results of the auditing process, which were given to the city — and included a response from the health department in the written report — before they were released to the public.

FWIW, this story comes from last June and a brief search didn't turn up any more recent developments.
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meingott posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

meingott posted...

@Questionmarktarius

Thoughts on solutions? Perhaps autonomous water testing equipment that actually gets things done for a fraction of the cost?

Wait, what?
When did I become an expert on this sort of thing?

You have a more conservative position on these matters, no? So I was interested in how you'd go about fixing the problem.

Ah.
This: https://www.amazon.com/WaterSafe-Water-Test-Kit-Lead/dp/B000Q6QWZA
For a little over eleven dollars, any concerned parent (or daycare owner) can test the water his or her damn self, and act accordingly.

meingott posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

robots won't solve this either since the people making the robots can fake them actually doing what they are supposed to do

True, but they're more reliable than humans. Technology can be built to be accurate, too - it's why we have airplanes and monitoring instruments for answering questions about the universe.

but humans are the ones making them to be accurate and can just fake it

and they guys testing that they made them right can fake it too
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Burgess posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

robots won't solve this either since the people making the robots can fake them actually doing what they are supposed to do

Make robots that make robots that won't do that.

Let's make Skynet. Yeah, that will work out.
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meingott posted...

Who regulates the regulators?

Nate Dogg and Warren G, but Nate Dogg died. Everything went downhill after that.
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meingott posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

robots won't solve this either since the people making the robots can fake them actually doing what they are supposed to do

True, but they're more reliable than humans. Technology can be built to be accurate, too - it's why we have airplanes and monitoring instruments for answering questions about the universe.

Didn't Volkswagen build cars that were designed to trick emissions tests?
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Fuck
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Antifar posted...

meingott posted...

What happens when the regulations and the regulators go unchecked?

Stories like this! Where it seems the problem is belatedly being addressed thanks to a city-run audit and investigation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/25/nyregion/city-failed-to-test-for-lead-in-water-at-day-care-centers-audit-says.html

Mr. Miller said the city has amended the issues brought up in the audit. All of the day care centers under the city’s purview, including the 70 identified in the audit, have now been tested for lead in the water, he said. The city also said it planned to start posting the results of each location’s water tests online.

Ms. Worthy-Davis said that the lack of clarity in terms of lead-testing protocol for day care centers predated the de Blasio administration, and she noted that “a bureaucratic process made testing standards vague beginning in 2011.”

This month, the health department proposed a change to the health code that would require lead testing at new centers within 30 days of their opening. They would also be required to undergo testing every five years.

But a spokesman from Mr. Stringer’s office said the changes only came about from the results of the auditing process, which were given to the city — and included a response from the health department in the written report — before they were released to the public.

FWIW, this story comes from last June and a brief search didn't turn up any more recent developments.

The only reason it was addressed is because people paid attention and spoke up. But it doesn't seem reasonable to expect that to happen in every circumstance in every government organization. It seems that faith in state regulators is poorly misplaced - they should all be fired and replaced with monitoring systems that run 24/7.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

meingott posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

robots won't solve this either since the people making the robots can fake them actually doing what they are supposed to do

True, but they're more reliable than humans. Technology can be built to be accurate, too - it's why we have airplanes and monitoring instruments for answering questions about the universe.

but humans are the ones making them to be accurate and can just fake it

and they guys testing that they made them right can fake it too

Right, but that's approaching conspiracy-theory levels of paranoia. We can establish a peer review process for monitoring software. It's the best system we have.
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SGT_Conti posted...

meingott posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

robots won't solve this either since the people making the robots can fake them actually doing what they are supposed to do

True, but they're more reliable than humans. Technology can be built to be accurate, too - it's why we have airplanes and monitoring instruments for answering questions about the universe.

Didn't Volkswagen build cars that were designed to trick emissions tests?

I was going to use this as a counter example. Indeed they did. Also, as was posted, it's cheap to check yourself so there's that.
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Antifar posted...

Ms. Worthy-Davis said that the lack of clarity in terms of lead-testing protocol for day care centers predated the de Blasio administration, and she noted that “a bureaucratic process made testing standards vague beginning in 2011.”

"Vague", in this case, apparently means "fuck it, just mark it good and forget about it"

Several someones need to become unemployed and possibly incarcerated over this.

meingott posted...

Law makers are keeping 20% of chemicals and their effects secret

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/03/AR2010010302110.html

"Of the 84,000 chemicals in commercial use in the United States -- from flame retardants in furniture to household cleaners -- nearly 20 percent are secret, according to the Environmental Protection Agency, their names and physical properties guarded from consumers and virtually all public officials under a little-known federal provision."

The law in question was designed to protect industry trade secrets and was significantly overhauled last year:
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/05/toxic-substances-control-act/484280/

So it is of great historical significance that after 40 years, in a Congress so divided, the U.S. House of Representative voted overwhelmingly (403 to 12) this week to pass the first ever update to the law. Even Republicans who have repeatedly voted to downsize the EPA, have in this case supported the measure to expand its power. The Senate is expected to pass the bill in coming weeks, after which President Obama is expected to sign.

The product of years of negotiation, the bill was introduced in 2013 by Senators Frank Lautenberg and David Vitter. It had momentum in the moment, but several days later, Lautenberg died. The bill is named in his honor, the Frank R. Lautenberg Chemical Safety for the 21st Century Act.

“This is an issue that many people assumed was never going to see progress because it had been so politicized, and industry and environmentalists were so diametrically opposed on how it should be handled,” said Anne Kolton, vice president of communications for the American Chemistry Council (ACC), a trade group that advocates for industrial chemical manufacturers and suppliers. “It's something that, through the art of compromise, we've settled on with the environmental community and the public health community.”

...

“This new bill is certainly an improvement on the current Toxic Substances Control Act,” said Landrigan, noting that it would increase pre-market safety testing requirements, with a mandatory emphasis on vulnerable populations. The act also removes some “trade secret” loopholes, which allowed companies to hide data on chemical testing.

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There's a big controversy with the Pittsburgh water authority as well over high lead and negligence on the people in charge. At least they were fired but it's definitely in the realm of criminal negligence.
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HydraSlayer82 posted...

SGT_Conti posted...

meingott posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

robots won't solve this either since the people making the robots can fake them actually doing what they are supposed to do

True, but they're more reliable than humans. Technology can be built to be accurate, too - it's why we have airplanes and monitoring instruments for answering questions about the universe.

Didn't Volkswagen build cars that were designed to trick emissions tests?

I was going to use this as a counter example. Indeed they did. Also, as was posted, it's cheap to check yourself so there's that.

@Antifar and @hockeybub89 always said that you can't trust private corporations to do the right thing, and that we need big governments to uphold the truth and to regulate industries. Yet we have a lot of evidence that shows that regulations and regulators are as untrustworthy as the private sector - perhaps even more untrustworthy since they're given much more funding and trust to begin with.
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Antifar posted...

meingott posted...

Law makers are keeping 20% of chemicals and their effects secret

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/03/AR2010010302110.html

"Of the 84,000 chemicals in commercial use in the United States -- from flame retardants in furniture to household cleaners -- nearly 20 percent are secret, according to the Environmental Protection Agency, their names and physical properties guarded from consumers and virtually all public officials under a little-known federal provision."

The law in question was designed to protect industry trade secrets and was significantly overhauled last year:
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/05/toxic-substances-control-act/484280/

So it is of great historical significance that after 40 years, in a Congress so divided, the U.S. House of Representative voted overwhelmingly (403 to 12) this week to pass the first ever update to the law. Even Republicans who have repeatedly voted to downsize the EPA, have in this case supported the measure to expand its power. The Senate is expected to pass the bill in coming weeks, after which President Obama is expected to sign.

The product of years of negotiation, the bill was introduced in 2013 by Senators Frank Lautenberg and David Vitter. It had momentum in the moment, but several days later, Lautenberg died. The bill is named in his honor, the Frank R. Lautenberg Chemical Safety for the 21st Century Act.

“This is an issue that many people assumed was never going to see progress because it had been so politicized, and industry and environmentalists were so diametrically opposed on how it should be handled,” said Anne Kolton, vice president of communications for the American Chemistry Council (ACC), a trade group that advocates for industrial chemical manufacturers and suppliers. “It's something that, through the art of compromise, we've settled on with the environmental community and the public health community.”

...

“This new bill is certainly an improvement on the current Toxic Substances Control Act,” said Landrigan, noting that it would increase pre-market safety testing requirements, with a mandatory emphasis on vulnerable populations. The act also removes some “trade secret” loopholes, which allowed companies to hide data on chemical testing.

That sounds good on paper, but I want to see results. Not just more "requirements"
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@The_Admiral

How would you fix this?
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meingott posted...

Yet we have a lot of evidence that shows that regulations and regulators are as untrustworthy as the private sector - perhaps even more untrustworthy since they're given much more funding and trust to begin with.

I mean, it's bad when the people entrusted to enforce the rules aren't doing their jobs properly, but is your proposed alternative not having the rules?
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Antifar posted...

meingott posted...

Yet we have a lot of evidence that shows that regulations and regulators are as untrustworthy as the private sector - perhaps even more untrustworthy since they're given much more funding and trust to begin with.

I mean, it's bad when the people entrusted to enforce the rules aren't doing their jobs properly, but is your proposed alternative not having the rules?

my proposed alternative is investing in autonomous smart infrastructure that reports on these things 24/7. in the same way you'd find on the International Space Station
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meingott posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

meingott posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

robots won't solve this either since the people making the robots can fake them actually doing what they are supposed to do

True, but they're more reliable than humans. Technology can be built to be accurate, too - it's why we have airplanes and monitoring instruments for answering questions about the universe.

but humans are the ones making them to be accurate and can just fake it

and they guys testing that they made them right can fake it too

Right, but that's approaching conspiracy-theory levels of paranoia. We can establish a peer review process for monitoring software. It's the best system we have.

no it isn't

it is approaching the level of saying you regulate something and those enforcing the regulations need regulating because they aren't doing it right

the guy making robots needs to be regulated and his regulators regulated and them too and so on


the reason is because of care, the people who this matters most to should be the ones empowered

that means the people actually drinking the water should be handed the tool to test as they will care the most when it isn't up to par
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@meingott

Stop misrepresenting my views on government and private enterprise. I just don't buy into the "government is inherently bad. For-profit corporations will inherently work for good if we let them." I don't want unchecked bloated, unweildy mommy government or unchecked private corporations because I think both are terrible for society. You constantly declaring America proves government (besides the efficient military haha) is bad is every bit as stupid as those people who would say America proves capitalism is bad. America is the problem in that equation, not the concepts.
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hockeybub89 posted...

@meingott

Stop misrepresenting my views on government and private enterprise. I just don't buy into the "government is inherently bad. For-profit corporations will inherently work for good if we let them." I don't want unchecked bloated, unweildy mommy government or unchecked private corporations because I think both are terrible for society. You constantly declaring America proves government (besides the efficient military haha) is bad is every bit as stupid as those people who would say America proves capitalism is bad. America is the problem in that equation, not the concepts.

welcome to the libertarian party, my friend
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you are trying your best to blame trump, but this was a Obama directive
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meingott posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

@meingott

Stop misrepresenting my views on government and private enterprise. I just don't buy into the "government is inherently bad. For-profit corporations will inherently work for good if we let them." I don't want unchecked bloated, unweildy mommy government or unchecked private corporations because I think both are terrible for society. You constantly declaring America proves government (besides the efficient military haha) is bad is every bit as stupid as those people who would say America proves capitalism is bad. America is the problem in that equation, not the concepts.

welcome to the libertarian party, my friend

No. I don't think so. I absolutely want government and the market to be intertwined. They reject one for the other. I agree with them somewhat on social issues, but that is about it.
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SGT_Conti posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

robots won't solve this either since the people making the robots can fake them actually doing what they are supposed to do

Robots are infallible so we won't need anyone to check to see if they're doing their job properly.

Not sure if being sarcastic...or just really fucking stupid,
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Friday, June 24, 2016,

Old as fuck news.
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The Trump Admin doesn't care. That's made evident by the fact they are getting rid of the EPA, one of things standing between us and nature's Armageddon
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