Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Ryu (SF), Ellie and Armstrong vs. Jaesa Willsaam and Selvaria Bles

(+) Yeah! (+)

Ryu, Ellie and Senator Steven Armstrong have challenged Jaesa Willsaam and Selvaria Bles to a fight! Location of the fight: Hutta Marshlands - The swampy environment surrounding the Evocii Work Camp. The area is heavily polluted, with decrepit machinery strewn around alongside large pipes transporting caustic chemicals. The local Hutt palaces and Empire territory is out of bounds. Attackers will start at the Imperial spaceport, defenders at Nomen Kaar's hideout. Which side will win?

Guidelines

- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of a pre-selected plan of battle.
- "Broken" refers to a lot of things, including insta-death, auto-effects, a variety of status effects (e.g., Imp, Silence, Stop, *not* Poison), and revival. Unless stated otherwise, nobody has them, though do use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

Rules for Voting

-Bold your votes (using bold HTML tags).
-You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
-Leaders cannot vote for their own teams (and players from the same pool may not vote as well), but they are free to argue their case.
-If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
-This match will end in 24 hours.
-The following conventions are in use for match topics: https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/570224-mercs/75290480/878106427

Ryu is as he appears in the Street Fighter series with all his moves minus gameplay mechanics, though his supers/ultras need to be charged.

Ellie is as she appears in the endgame of Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE, equipped with the Pinaka and a Godly Emblem, with all Radiant skills other than Endless Act and Endless Song, and no Extra skills. Virion is an Assassin with the Command skills Grand Tack, Myriad Arrows, Thunder Strike, Inferno Strike, Overload, Power Charge and Stealth, as well as the Passive skills Bow Expertise EX, Elec Expertise, Fire Expertise, Absorb Elec, Shura's Soul, Dodge Feather and Pierce.

Senator Steven Armstrong is as seen in his boss fight in Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, with access to all of his powers and abilities. He cannot access Metal Gear Excelsius. During this match, It Has To be This Way will play loudly all over the terrain. He has been stabbed through the stomach with Jaesa Willsaam's lightsaber, dealing damage and causing an incurable bleed effect. He will lose blood at a steady pace over the course of the fight, eventually dying from blood loss, depending on his composition.

~VS~

Jaesa Willsaam is as seen in SW:TOR, using her best equipment, fully leveled and with access to all of her role skills and other abilities, as well as cutscene powers (though no mind control or anything else that would fall under the 'broken' clause). She has been rendered permanently drunk for the duration of this battle.

Selvaria is as seen in Valkyria Chronicles, with access to her Valkyrur lance and shield as well as her Rhum machine gun. She cannot use her Valkyrur Flame self destruct power. She will be unable to use magic for the first minute of battle, if she has any.

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A race against time...will Armstrong force his way before his time runs out? Let's find out! FIGHT!
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@Luis_Sera89
@Mewtwo59

Your match is up. You may post arguments now.
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So the first thing you might be concerned about is that Armstrong had his stomach stabbed. Well, it turns out that Raiden did the exact same thing to him in his boss fight, and all it did was make him mad (https://youtu.be/mALkd3DG6HA?t=37m13s) He's still able to match Raiden's strength despite having a sword sticking out of his stomach. And Raiden is a guy who is strong enough to stop Outer Haven with one arm and cut Metal Gears in half. Another thing is he gets his arm sliced off against Sam, and he's able to stop the bleeding by hardening that part of his body. He may have to focus on keeping his stomach hardened, but he can stem the bleeding by quite a bit. He can also heal himself (https://streamable.com/18b1p), so that's another option if his health gets too low. Even if you want to say that he was healing off of the wreckage, there's plenty of broken machinery around here to heal off of.

So that brings me to the fight. Jaesa is useless here. Using a double-bladed lightsaber while drunk is suicide, and Ellie absorbs Force Lightning thanks to her Absorb Elec passive. Ellie also has Stealth, which lowers her chance of being attacked; Power Charge, which more than doubles the power of her next physical attack; and Grand Tack, a powerful single target physical attack. She can get off a sneak attack on Jaesa and bring her down quite a bit in one attack. Ryu can serve as a distraction to help Ellie get a good shot.

Meanwhile, Armstrong makes a beeline for Selvaria. He's really fast (https://streamable.com/sc0f2) and can get in melee range pretty soon after he spots her. Once he's in melee range, he's in a good spot. Like I said before, having a sword through his stomach didn't hurt his strength against Raiden, and Armstrong's pain tolerance is high enough that he's able to have a conversation with Raiden while Raiden's fist is in his chest. Selvaria's good, but she's better at range. She's no match for Armstrong at melee.

Even if Armstrong gives out due to blood loss at some point, he should do enough damage where Power Charged Grand Tacks can finish the job. Stealth means that Selvaria won't target Ellie until she's the last one left, and Ellie also has a skill called Slowma that slows the enemy. She also has Pierce, which means that she'll break through any resistances that Selvaria has.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

He will lose blood at a steady pace over the course of the fight, eventually dying from blood loss, depending on his composition.

See, this is what really throws me about this match. Not sure how Armstrong's nanobots v. bolded ability goes
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yeah i'm trying to reconcile the nanobots too

i think they magically don't stop his blood loss, despite normally doing so. I don't think it actually hinders him fightwise (dude will just power through it) but the blood loss will eventually do him in putting him on a timer on this fight. (I think even hardening to area to prevent blood loss counts as 'curing' the bleed so whoops)
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drunk lightsaber user is lol

on the other hand, this terrain sounds big enough for Armstrong to bleed out and die before the teams meet? like normally he'd just heal the wound no problem, but the ability states "incurable"

so it's Ellie + Ryu vs. Selvaria. thinking Selvaria takes that
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Here is a helpful map of the terrain, since the number of people who played SW:TOR probably number in the single digits.

http://www.ddmsrealm.com/wp-content/gallery/tor-hutta/ddmsrealm-star-wars-tor-hutta-map.jpg

It's roughly the bottom left quadrant, minus the palace, as far north as the cantina and as far east as the work camp. Team Armstrong begin roughly where it says 'Jiguuna', whereas Selvaria/Jaesa are in the cavern you can see to the southwest of 'The Harvester' enemy (the little door).

Here are a couple of images of what the lay of the land looks like:

http://www.ddmsrealm.com/wp-content/gallery/tor-hutta/ddmsrealm-star-wars-hutta-m-78-the-harvester.jpg

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/swtor/images/8/8b/Screen04_800x450_hutta.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/670?cb=20100919073421

It's very boggy underfoot, and kind of difficult to get anywhere quickly, as you're either slowed by mud, or taking the long way around along sporadic islands.

As for my opinion on the match, whilst my team has one less person, Selvaria is by far the strongest combatant here, with the superior ranged options on a terrain where melee is hampered. This is thanks in no small part to the fact that Armstrong has a hole going through his gut. His typical method of durability, hardening his skin, is a preventative measure that won't help here, and whilst regenerative nanomachines will possibly slow his eventual death, it's still a huge anchor on his normal robust combat style. He won't be able to move around as much without worsening his wound and losing blood faster.

Simply put, Selvaria can lay the damage down at range with her infamous 'sniper machine gun' and lance blasts. Ryu can't get close, and Ellie would generally be more effective at midrange. A gored Armstrong can't hope to beat an untouched Selvaria really.

Jaesa being drunk certainly isn't ideal, but she's far from useless. She can still be able back-up to Selvaria, healing her and providing shields if necessary. Her dps is pretty great too - hopefully it'll be more relevant in future fights!

https://torcommunity.com/database/companion/aCkSzGB/jaesa+willsaam/

That link has her skills. In addition to that she also demonstrates the use of force telekinesis, so in the unlikely event Armstrong gets close enough, she can even push him back.
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i buy armstrong dying eventually, but i also buy that he can heal himself with nanomachines

seems like a draw, in a way.
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Drakeryn posted...

drunk lightsaber user is lol

on the other hand, this terrain sounds big enough for Armstrong to bleed out and die before the teams meet? like normally he'd just heal the wound no problem, but the ability states "incurable"

so it's Ellie + Ryu vs. Selvaria. thinking Selvaria takes that

That matchup is super interesting to me because Ryu is really no joke with SF5 hype (SF5 really did wonders for showing what Street Fighters can do - I can post relevant bits if needed). Dude is capable of dealing massive damage, and Ellie can both stealth for a first strike and stun Selvaria (Overload inflicts turn delay, making it so the enemy takes no action for a bit, and is Almighty type, so combined with her Pierce skill it has major cred to pierce defenses too, which is important because usually Selvaria no-sells like a boss). Selvaria is amazing, so can two pretty good fighters beat a single awesome one?
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Another thing is that Armstrong does lose a lot of blood in the Raiden fight. He loses quite a bit every time Raiden hits him with his sword. And given that he was still alive for a little while after Raiden ripped his heart out means that he can survive with little blood. Add in his healing and he can keep himself alive for a fairly long time.
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Like I say, I'm not claiming Jaesa to be a real combat threat whilst drunk, but it isn't hard for her to aid Selvaria with her support skills. Selvaria is a brigadier general; she knows how to lead an army. It's absolutely in her personality to just tell Jaesa what to do, which can be as simple as healing her and pushing back anyone who gets close. She's drunk, not deaf or incompetent.
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Luis_Sera89 posted...

Like I say, I'm not claiming Jaesa to be a real combat threat whilst drunk, but it isn't hard for her to aid Selvaria with her support skills. Selvaria is a brigadier general; she knows how to lead an army. It's absolutely in her personality to just tell Jaesa what to do, which can be as simple as healing her and pushing back anyone who gets close. She's drunk, not deaf or incompetent.

Is it in Jaesa's personality to act that way though? I'll have to go look at her conversations because this is what I saw in the page I used when remaking her writeup:

Likes: Random cruelty, secrets of the Force, murder and chaos
Dislikes: Honor, mercy, helping people

I need some backing here that she'll lend a hand to Selvaria when drunk. Maybe something from her storyline to sell it?
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I don't even think he bleeds out quick enough that he'd die before the teams meet, but the fact is that bold text Mercs magic has him with a hole in his stomach and blood pouring out. Incurably so. Nanomachines can be as useful as usual from in-battle damage, but there's nothing he can do about that wound that will kill him.
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yeah I think Armstrong is certainly on a timer

it's just the matter of if he runs out of time before or after everyone else is dead
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eagle

likes: airplanes
dislikes: not airplanes

thanks advance wars
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Luis_Sera89 posted...

Like I say, I'm not claiming Jaesa to be a real combat threat whilst drunk, but it isn't hard for her to aid Selvaria with her support skills. Selvaria is a brigadier general; she knows how to lead an army. It's absolutely in her personality to just tell Jaesa what to do, which can be as simple as healing her and pushing back anyone who gets close. She's drunk, not deaf or incompetent.

Is it in Jaesa's personality to act that way though? I'll have to go look at her conversations because this is what I saw in the page I used when remaking her writeup:

Likes: Random cruelty, secrets of the Force, murder and chaos
Dislikes: Honor, mercy, helping people

I need some backing here that she'll lend a hand to Selvaria when drunk. Maybe something from her storyline to sell it?

That's true, random acts of kindness are a no-no, but it's also true that she's incredibly loyal to her allies and devoted to her master, which is true of light-side Jaesa as well, so it isn't even a romantic interest thing (which is dark-side only). That's even what her upgrade ability stems from.
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It just says the wound is incurable. It doesn't say the blood loss is. His healing won't heal the wound. It'll heal the blood loss. It just says it'll eventually kill him. It doesn't say when. Like, to put this in numbers, the bleed does 10 HP and the healing heals 9 HP. It'll kill him, but it'll take a very long time.
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The thing is, Armstrong's self-healing in his fight required standing still and is easily interrupted. Plus the nanomachines are carried by his blood too, so losing out on that slowly is diverting his power pretty much, so even before death he's in a bad way given less blood = less efficient transfer of nanomachines around and less total nanomachines.

I think Selvaria covers this fight pretty well given her own range, speed, durability, and regen. Outlasts Armstrong in this condition even if he lasts to the battle itself. Definitely cleans up Ryu and Elly.
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Mewtwo59 posted...

It just says the wound is incurable. It doesn't say the blood loss is.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

causing an incurable bleed effect. He will lose blood at a steady pace over the course of the fight,

???
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Ellie can both stealth for a first strike and stun Selvaria (Overload inflicts turn delay, making it so the enemy takes no action for a bit, and is Almighty type, so combined with her Pierce skill it has major cred to pierce defenses too, which is important because usually Selvaria no-sells like a boss).

How does Ellie's stealth work? Mewtwo says "lowers her chance of being attacked" which...doesn't sound all that impressive. Like mechanics to control a boss's aggro.

Also I feel like this is a bad terrain for stealth, being boggy and squishy and all. honk honk honk
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I think what Mewtwo is saying is that Armstrong can create more blood over time (for example by eating meat), even if he'll eventually lose that too. It's a question of whether you buy NANOMACHINES (SON) doing that or not.
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He can still counter attack in his fight. In fact, it was only interrupted when Raiden used blade mode. So Selvaria needs a precise shot on his back to do it. If she's shooting from the front, it's not going to do much.
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Drakeryn posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Ellie can both stealth for a first strike and stun Selvaria (Overload inflicts turn delay, making it so the enemy takes no action for a bit, and is Almighty type, so combined with her Pierce skill it has major cred to pierce defenses too, which is important because usually Selvaria no-sells like a boss).

How does Ellie's stealth work? Mewtwo says "lowers her chance of being attacked" which...doesn't sound all that impressive. Like mechanics to control a boss's aggro.

Also I feel like this is a bad terrain for stealth, being boggy and squishy and all. honk honk honk

In-game it reduces the 'threat level' of the character who uses it, making enemies less likely to attack them over other party members. So I guess it makes her less conspicuous? Your mileage may vary since it's a weird thing to parse in a realtime fight.
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Drakeryn posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Ellie can both stealth for a first strike and stun Selvaria (Overload inflicts turn delay, making it so the enemy takes no action for a bit, and is Almighty type, so combined with her Pierce skill it has major cred to pierce defenses too, which is important because usually Selvaria no-sells like a boss).

How does Ellie's stealth work? Mewtwo says "lowers her chance of being attacked" which...doesn't sound all that impressive. Like mechanics to control a boss's aggro.

Also I feel like this is a bad terrain for stealth, being boggy and squishy and all. honk honk honk

Not having played Tokyo Mirage Sessions I can't say, though I'm under the impression it's kinda like that. That said, I do buy that it gives Ellie some stealth cred - like I don't think she's outsneaking Solid Snake, but potentially getting a first strike is feasible. It grants her training in that IMO - how far it goes is up for interp.
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Really think lightsaber damage is just a bad choice on Armstrong. There's no specificity to how large the wound would be, just that it's a bleed 'status'. So you're going from 'impalement' to 'lazy blade job on his abs', which I mean, sure he'll die from eventually, but like in a couple hours.

Armstrong. Wording on the ability doesn't create 'incurable wound', just 'bleed status', which is vague enough for me to buy Armstrong's body super-mitigating it unless it were reopened. While I would give credit for Selvaria to do so, I don't give her credit to do so on her own. Ryu's actually not dead weight now thanks to his "1 v 1 me Necalli/Bison" feats, and this is more than over if Ellie gets Debilitate off (which she SHOULD have as it's her weapon's inherent skill?)
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He can't heal the wound, otherwise he wouldn't be able to lose blood. I don't see what's vague about that. And I'd have thought the wound would be the size of the diameter of a lightsaber. He's been stabbed through his stomach, which implies impalement. That's at least the most likely conclusion to draw from it anyway. Just nicking him with it seems a little silly.
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I agree about it not being a little nick but rather a lightsaber sized hole. I think I buy Jaesa helping a bit, too, even if it's not very competently. Lemme look at what she's got...
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Selvaria. Yeah, I don't buy Armstrong doing well with incurable bleeding and a lightsaber stab. Even when he gets stabbed through the gut with Raiden's blade near the end of the fight, he responds pretty poorly to it, if you make that incurable? He's almost instantly in the range of being woozy, and it only goes downhill from there. Terrain's big enough that it'll be unlikely he has enough left in him to be any real threat.

Selvaria completely stomps Ellie+Ryu. Even the idea of a stealth attack from Ellie's very unlikely, given Selvaria is frequently sent on black ops even without her Valkyrie powers available, while Ellie's only stealth credit is... a token passive ability. Her reflexes are also insane enough to bat tank shells out of the air like they're nothing, and durability high enough to wade through mounted gatling gun fire unharmed too. She's a crazy damage check with tankbusting power.
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Luis_Sera89 posted...

He can't heal the wound, otherwise he wouldn't be able to lose blood. I don't see what's vague about that. And I'd have thought the wound would be the size of the diameter of a lightsaber. He's been stabbed through his stomach, which implies impalement. That's at least the most likely conclusion to draw from it anyway. Just nicking him with it seems a little silly.

I agree with that point. I just think 'nanomachines son' does fix the diameter hole as it specifies that the bleeding is the permanence rather than the wound.
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Selvaria yeah sure I buy into Armstrong succumbing before he can FINISH THE FIGHT.
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I cant vote in this one, but it does seem like this terrain is just tailor made for Selvaria to go ham. Lots of space, difficult for her opponents to maneuver. I probably even take her to beat full strength armstrong this way so like yeah.
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Selvaria KJH's viewpoint seems sound here looking over the terrain.
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Ellie is still the big question mark to me.

Like, I guess she's an archer, because she's holding a bow on her page. What feats does she have? Cutscene showings? What's the power level of #FE in general? Right now all I know is a few of her attacks, but with no context.
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same boat, buddy, because finding things on tms is like a needle in a haystack -- but i believe most of the attached skills are stuff from smt so it isnt so much attacking with a bow it's her persona doing it or whatever. if i had to wager another guess her regular attack is using a bow, though.
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Drakeryn posted...

Ellie is still the big question mark to me.

Like, I guess she's an archer, because she's holding a bow on her page. What feats does she have? Cutscene showings? What's the power level of #FE in general? Right now all I know is a few of her attacks, but with no context.

As I understand it (and I'd like to hear from KJH and Mewtwo more because I don't know Ellie that well), Ellie is basically fused with her FE-Persona (called a Mirage), Virion, granting her bonuses kinda not unlike a small armatization from Sorey. You start with this:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/megamitensei/images/6/6e/Shin_Megami_Tensei_x_Fire_Emblem_Eleonora_Yumizuru.png/revision/latest?cb=20151204162257
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/megamitensei/images/f/ff/SMT_x_FE_Virion.png/revision/latest?cb=20151002021523

And end up with this:

http://personacentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/FE-Carnage-Form-1.jpg

(Virion is the bow, so very literally like an Armatization)

So yeah, while I don't think she gets a similarly huge bonus, it makes her better than the sum of her parts I believe.
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Was Virion supposed to be super popular or something? He's one of the starting units in FEH too.

He's not very good in any of his appearances, so I don't get it either.
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#FE only draws from FE1 and Awakening for units, so it was either Virion or someone like Jeorg. Mostly right time, right place I guess.
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#FE doesn't have the best of showings or anything, it's basically just like Persona 3 and onwards. They almost exclusively fight shadows (monsters of varying sizes), or the one time they fight another Mirage user. She's P3 Yukari, but more archery, less magic (but still some magic).
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https://youtu.be/CjdoaLEXo7I?t=14m54s

There's what one of her attacks looks like. Basically she fires a giant arrow at the enemy, made out of fire or lightning depending on whether she used Thunder or Inferno Strike. For Grand Tack she just fires a normal giant arrow (I think so. She does it for a lower level, but I haven't actually been able to find a video of Grand Tack.)

She's pretty agile, doing a flip in midair then firing an arrow. And she's got two passives that increase her dodge rate, on top of her good speed stat. If you keep watching you can see her Session attack where she does a roll and fires an arrow. So aiming shouldn't really be an issue for her.
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Okay. So on Ellie/Ryu vs. Selvaria:

If Selvaria gets off her laser, that's pretty devastating. But it also takes her like 10 seconds to charge that thing up. She's probably not getting that kind of time against an enemy archer with good speed.

Selvaria without her laser is notably less impressive. Like, she's decently fast and has flipz and what not, but really she seems about equal to Ellie in that video. If Ryu manages to close the distance then I think Ellie/Ryu win a 2v1.

But that's an oversimplification because Jaesa and Armstrong exist. If Armstrong makes it to the fight before bleeding out (a significant if), then he's going to contribute a whole lot more to the fight than a drunk Jaesa.

So I'm going to sleep on this but leaning Team Ellie for now.
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I don't think she even really needs laser blasts, the Rhum is just a more efficient choice for taking out unarmoured infantry, which is exactly how a martial artist and archer appear. Between them they have no form of healing or damage mitigation, so any damage is sticking, and with the Rhum being shockingly accurate for the firepower it possesses over long range, I don't see a way of them getting close enough unscathed.
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Couple thinks, Drak. Her laser has two modes: charge beam and gatling beam. Gatling beam is rapid-fire energy blasts, so if you think the charge is too long, she's still got that (which she automatically uses to intercept enemies that move into her line of sight in-game, so it's not a niche attack). The Rhum gun's also long range, rapid fire with no recoil somehow.

The other thing is her speed is significantly higher than Ellie's. Just some like 30 second cutscene clips for it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3Fc5qgE9PM#t=0m55s (movement speed)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjvgEvStpBw#t=0m25s (reflexes + strength)

All Valkyrie also have insane regen so long as they have their ragnite weapons (her lance and shield), enough that to even initially have awakened their power they need to heal an injury that would otherwise be fatal.
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Selvaria and Drunk Jaesa

S&J know that they used Exsanguination and have an incentive to delay the fight starting. If Armstrong is gone or knocking on heaven's door then I take Selvaria to handle Ryu/Ellie with minimal help from the drunk Jaesa
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Armstrong