Current Events > Are Jedi superheroes?

(+) Yeah! (+)

They have special powers and fight evil on the behalf of the general citizenry. You could argue that they're just a religious/political organization, but I think they could be considered as much superheroes as any random Green Lantern is.
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Pretty much
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No. Theyre a bunch of spineless monks who refuse to act decisively when appropriate to prevent larger strife. Literally every major bad event in star wars history is directly a result of something the Jedi did.
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They are lazy neutral
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pres_madagascar posted...

No. Theyre a bunch of spineless monks who refuse to act decisively when appropriate to prevent larger strife. Literally every major bad event in star wars history is directly a result of something the Jedi did.

Just off the top of my head I can think of:
Great Hyperspace War
rise of Darth Bane's Sith
destruction of Alderaan
Yuuzhan Vong War

I'm sure there are lots of other exceptions. You can argue about their competence or methods, but to say that they caused all of the bad events is really reaching. And this is coming from someone who likes (but doesn't agree with) the Sith.

Anyway this doesn't undermine the basic premise of them being superheroes based on what I said.
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Irony posted...

They are lazy neutral

Nah, their teaching is fundamentally flawed. Not allowing for emotion is what ruins them, and will always hold them back.

On the converse, the Sith focus too much on emotions, which is what leads to their downfall.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Teaching force sensitive people to understand and cope with their emotions.
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MrZAP17 posted...

pres_madagascar posted...

No. Theyre a bunch of spineless monks who refuse to act decisively when appropriate to prevent larger strife. Literally every major bad event in star wars history is directly a result of something the Jedi did.

Just off the top of my head I can think of:
Great Hyperspace War
rise of Darth Bane's Sith
destruction of Alderaan
Yuuzhan Vong War

I'm sure there are lots of other exceptions. You can argue about their competence or methods, but to say that they caused all of the bad events is really reaching. And this is coming from someone who likes (but doesn't agree with) the Sith.

Anyway this doesn't undermine the basic premise of them being superheroes based on what I said.

I don't like the Sith. I've been fascinated with the neutral side of things which is why I loved jolee Bindo and especially kotor 2.

And what I meant by their fault, is ripple effects. The failure of their teachings can ultimately be considered a primary cause in sidious/vader rising and ultimately taking out alderman with the death star.

It's like a much dorkier version of 6 degrees of separation. Somewhere, somehow, something the Jedi did or didn't do(when they could/should have) can be traced to most major problems throughout star wars.
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When I was younger, I argued that Qui-gon Jinn was the most important character in Star Wars on the assumption that if he had lived to train Anakin, Anakin wouldn't have turned and Palpatine might have been stopped earlier. But this was a fundamentally flawed argument, because it assumed that that single event was a turning point, discounting all of the other factors in play. I no longer advocate that position.

Your argument strikes me as foundationally the same.

Anyway I think the closest we get to an ideal Force using group is Luke's Jedi Order. Even that has its problems, though, with all of the schisms.

When I said I like the Sith I just meant I find them and their history interesting, especially compared to the less eventful progression of the Jedi.
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No, not really. Superheroes generally are more than just people with powers. Powers aren't even required (Batman, Green Arrow, etc) and doing good on behalf of the citizenry isn't even a requirement (Swamp Thing). Generally, "superhero" is a bit of a self-defined genre since 'powers' is such a vague and all-encompassing idea.

No, their powers are completely in line with the universe's laws, since midichlorians are present in all life, the Jedi just have way more of them.
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DarthTyrannus83 posted...

No, their powers are completely in line with the universe's laws, since midichlorians are present in all life, the Jedi just have way more of them.

Couldn't you make a similar kind of argument for Superman? He's just a normal Kryptonian taking advantage of abilities given to him by an alien environment.

Dash_Harber posted...

No, not really. Superheroes generally are more than just people with powers. Powers aren't even required (Batman, Green Arrow, etc) and doing good on behalf of the citizenry isn't even a requirement (Swamp Thing). Generally, "superhero" is a bit of a self-defined genre since 'powers' is such a vague and all-encompassing idea.

I think this is a bit more compelling, but once again I don't see how they don't fit the basic mold. Citing my original comparison to the Green Lanterns who have similar purpose and conventions. One is generally thought to be a bunch of superheroes and one is not, but what is functionally different about them?
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MrZAP17 posted...

DarthTyrannus83 posted...

No, their powers are completely in line with the universe's laws, since midichlorians are present in all life, the Jedi just have way more of them.

Couldn't you make a similar kind of argument for Superman? He's just a normal Kryptonian taking advantage of abilities given to him by an alien environment.

Dash_Harber posted...

No, not really. Superheroes generally are more than just people with powers. Powers aren't even required (Batman, Green Arrow, etc) and doing good on behalf of the citizenry isn't even a requirement (Swamp Thing). Generally, "superhero" is a bit of a self-defined genre since 'powers' is such a vague and all-encompassing idea.

I think this is a bit more compelling, but once again I don't see how they don't fit the basic mold. Citing my original comparison to the Green Lanterns who have similar purpose and conventions. One is generally thought to be a bunch of superheroes and one is not, but what is functionally different about them?

To be frank, costumes, concealed identities, a setting that is set in 'our' universe, their powers being something unique to them, and originating in the comic format. Despite that, there are examples of superheroes that break all of those conventions. Again though, they are not labelled superheroes and that is pretty much it.

Dash_Harber posted...

Again though, they are not labelled superheroes and that is pretty much it.

You said it. I think this is the crux of the matter, honestly. I see your point with the other things, but like you said there are exceptions to all of those; they're far from rigid. Some of them like the setting and the comic origin seem to be completely arbitrary to me.

My argument is if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck etc..
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MrZAP17 posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Again though, they are not labelled superheroes and that is pretty much it.

You said it. I think this is the crux of the matter, honestly. I see your point with the other things, but like you said there are exceptions to all of those; they're far from rigid. Some of them like the setting and the comic origin seem to be completely arbitrary to me.

My argument is if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck etc..

They also don't conceal their identity. Honestly, I get what you are saying, but it basically boils down to watering down the idea of 'superheroes' to be so generic they are applicable to anything (for example, the Carebears).

The way genre works is pretty simple; it's a set of cliches and ideas that works of fiction (or non-fiction/partial fiction in some cases) share. Superheroes conventions include masks, costumes, powers, secret identities, do-goodery, etc. Really, Jedi only hit two marks; they have powers and they are benevolent. However, the second is not really a part of superheroes as much as it is a convention of protagonists in general. Otherwise, you basically have powers, which is way, way too general.

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.
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