Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Kirby vs. Tira...& Knuckles

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KanzarisKelshen posted...

She will swap loyalties 30s after the teams meet, and will continue to swap loyalties every 30s. Neither team will initially be aware of this. Kirby will masquerade as Tira's mentor, and can keep in contact with her during the fight over codec until the teams meet in battle for the first time, at which point Kirby will enter a gleeful monologue about how he's misled her. She will be generally none the wiser to the deception, and will genuinely believe she is being given helpful advice from a reliable source, although she still won't do anything obviously incorrect, nonsensical, or out of character just because Kirby says so.

what

Kirby is playing the part of Master Miller (or possibly Nightmare in that role). Tira is being a lunatic.
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And knuckles isnt chuckling.
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...Actually...

until the teams meet in battle for the first time, at which point Kirby will enter a gleeful monologue about how he's misled her.

Kirby will stop to give his monologue and Knuckles will destroy him because he's not chuckling
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Eddv posted...

But yeah i think the "actual physical ability to properly use a Rex as well as a someone who is bipedal and human sized," is a fair and good argument.

Not necessarily. Even assuming Kirby is at his stated instruction manual height (which I will say doesn't actually make sense till the end of time) Kirby's wingspan lets him cover surfaces over a foot if he's exploiting his flippiness to maximum. The question is how nonsensically the controls are laid out.

If you assume Smash representation of Kirby's height is more accurate he's covering several feet.
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I do agree that if knuckles did chuckle this would be a harder match!
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Lopen posted...

Eddv posted...

But yeah i think the "actual physical ability to properly use a Rex as well as a someone who is bipedal and human sized," is a fair and good argument.

Not necessarily. Even assuming Kirby is at his stated instruction manual height (which I will say doesn't actually make sense till the end of time) Kirby's wingspan lets him cover surfaces over a foot if he's exploiting his flippiness to maximum. The question is how nonsensically the controls are laid out.

If you assume Smash representation of Kirby's height is more accurate he's covering several feet.

Even then hes still operating something that wasnt designed with dwarfs let alone kirbys in mind.

Im not saying hes incapable of using it just that Knuckles is better off.

Also Kirby has to contend with Tira bopping around in his brain too and even after a bit trying to "help" could be a hindrance
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Knux is like a meter tall yo

If kirby can't pilot Rex well then neither can he
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Kirby flipping around also assumes he's not SAFETY FIRST and carefully seatbelted in

Can you prove Kirby doesn't buckle up
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More specifically:

110 cm (3' 7")

Source: Sonic wiki.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Knux is like a meter tall yo

If kirby can't pilot Rex well then neither can he

Knuckles has actual arms, not stubs, and a torso to lean forward with, Sir

The height isn't the issue. The lack of actual arms is.
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I'm saying just because it was designed for a human doesn't mean you can't fully operate it at Kirby's size, no matter what size you have him pegged at. It just means he has to do so without sitting in the pilot's seat. Kirby's a guy who uses all his limbs proficiently and flips around to do things regularly so this shouldn't be too strange for him.
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Does that mean when kirbys rex gets hit he tumbles away from the controls.
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Eddv posted...

Does that mean when kirbys rex gets hit he tumbles away from the controls.

Yes, since Lopen is arguing that Kirby is, in fact, not SAFETY FIRST

So they meet

Kirby gloats in GLORIOUS fashion about his tricking of Tira, probably to the effect of "Hi hi hiiiii! >=D Hi hiiiii hi hiiiiii! HIIIII HI HI HIIIII! XFD"

Knuckles takes this time to hit him with stuff

Kirby goes flying off the control console from the impact

Knuckles hits him with more stuff

Repeat
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Team Knuckles
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Kirby's naturally floaty nature and reaction speeds should allow him to recover from hits on the REX pretty well-- not too much worse off than Knux would be in a seat-- maybe even better as he has more control over his movements not being restrained to a seat-- Knux could get SEVERE whiplash!
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Lopen posted...

Kirby's naturally floaty nature and reaction speeds should allow him to recover from hits on the REX pretty well-- not too much worse off than Knux would be in a seat-- maybe even better as he has more control over his movements not being restrained to a seat-- Knux could get SEVERE whiplash!

This completely flies in the face of physics

If Kirby is floating, that means he's slamming into the windshield when the REX gets rocked back from impact
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That being said I think the REX with its heavliy armored nature and weight, the REX isn't going to be "knocked around" much at all until the thing is about to be destroyed, at which point Kirby already has the edge
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Lopen posted...

Kirby's naturally floaty nature and reaction speeds should allow him to recover from hits on the REX pretty well-- not too much worse off than Knux would be in a seat-- maybe even better as he has more control over his movements not being restrained to a seat-- Knux could get SEVERE whiplash!

Fortunately he wont let it get to him; hes just gonna creep.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Lopen posted...

Kirby's naturally floaty nature and reaction speeds should allow him to recover from hits on the REX pretty well-- not too much worse off than Knux would be in a seat-- maybe even better as he has more control over his movements not being restrained to a seat-- Knux could get SEVERE whiplash!

This completely flies in the face of physics

If Kirby is floating, that means he's slamming into the windshield when the REX gets rocked back from impact

Kirby isn't floating to operate it, just that if he gets knocked back due to the REX taking a nasty blow, his floatiness + air jumping cred + light weight should let him recover really easily
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I feel like if piloting Rex involves hitting buttons, Knuckles is going to have a rough time with his big stupid mittens
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DeathChicken posted...

I feel like if piloting Rex involves hitting buttons, Knuckles is going to have a rough time with his big stupid mittens

Knuckles has actually piloted a spaceship before.

Poorly, since he didn't know what he was doing, but he has shown the ability to hit buttons!

The gloves aren't "big." That's literally what his hands are like.
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http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/sonic/images/a/ad/Knuckles_image_player_432_324.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141120155336
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Anyhoo, I do fully believe Kirby will have more trouble piloting than Knuckles will. A LOT more? No, but a little.

That alone wouldn't be a problem, but Kirby also has to stop to gloat. And not just gloat, but gleefully monologue. That means there WILL be a short period of time where he can't be focused entirely on the fight.

Still deciding if those two hiccups give Knuckles enough of an edge or not
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I think I lean towards Kirby here. See, three things tilt it in his favor IMO:

A) I don't think either side is inconvenienced piloting the REX. Otacon built the controls to be very intuitive and easy to pilot, according to MGS4. It's why Old Snake can have REX kickbox.

B) If you take Nightmare as Tira's mentor, her loyalty to him is eternal and endless. She will not question a thing he says - and if Liquid gets Tira to tell him that Knux is in a REX, he will persuade her to get him out of it for sure. Without the REX I don't think Knuckles can compete.

C) Knuckles is gullible. How many times has Eggman fooled him again? This makes the scenario in point B believable. The terrain is so big teams won't meet before it happens, either - and Tira has a silver tongue for dealing with fools. The entire storyline of SC5 puts a lot of focus on this and how she manipulates Pyrrha.

Overall, I think Knux being able to leave the REX is his undoing. Without that, this match is close. With that in place, it really isn't.
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Kirby can monologue while still piloting! Liquid does this in the game many a time!

Overall I think the x-factors are in Kirby's corner here.

- Knuckles is prone to getting angry-- Kirby's disregard for him to monologue to Tira will get under his skin
- Knuckles is prone to being misled, so he's likely to trust what misinformation Tira relays to him, allowing Kirby to get the vital first strike
- Knuckles is prone to rash actions, meaning he may very well exit his REX, which would be a BLUNDER.

And Kirby just has better proven piloting intuition of the two.
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My counter argument is that what you described with Tira sounds like it would take longer than 30 seconds and once she switches sides the ruse falls apart.
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Eddv posted...

My counter argument is that what you described with Tira sounds like it would take longer than 30 seconds and once she switches sides the ruse falls apart.

By that point Knux isn't in the REX so it doesn't matter if it falls apart. The sole objective is to get him far away from his giant robot. Remember: The side switch doesn't happen until both sides meet.
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Like Tira and Liquid are not uhh terse at all.

Theres gonna be a lot of extra words and gesturing in there
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Tira doesn't start her loyalty swap counter until teams meet in glorious combat so she will be happily misled for the duration.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spv50cAjvVs

Like heres a basic miller codec not even a very long or important one and it takes well over a minute even with terse snake replies.
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Also i think youre underrating the rapping aspect.

How well can Tira REALLY fool Knux if he isnt listening and is instead rapping
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Well Metal Gear REXes aren't the fastest things-- they should have well over a minute before they meet each other, I figure. ESPECIALLY with Knuckles rapping.
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http://www.soniczone0.com/games/sonic3/downloads/s3-aiz-act1map.png
http://www.soniczone0.com/games/sonic3/downloads/s3-aiz-act2map.png

Full size of angel island. Place is BIG, yo.
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Tira can totally get Knux's attention during the low rapping parts of the song I'm sure. Then Knux can use that knowledge to creep more effectively. The Great Emerald's power allows him to feel the urgency in heeding Tira's valuable advice
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Tira being fiercely loyal to Nightmare doesn't equate to Tira being THAT loyal to a voice in her head when she already has voices in her head to begin with. And it says she won't do anything obviously dumb or incorrect, which telling Knuckles to get out of his GIANT FIGHTING ROBOT definitely feels like it falls under that.
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It's all about how Liquid Kirby sells it. If you present a scenario where leaving the giant doom bot makes sense it's no longer obviously dumb or incorrect! Liquid excels at misleading, Tira excels at convincing, and Knuckles excels at believing. It sounds like an excellent chain of command to me!
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Tira'd have to be dumb enough to believe that in a fight, it's smart to tell Knuckles to get out of his giant robot. And she isn't that dumb. >_>
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i think there are scenarios he could sell it.. something like the giant mech being a target for missiles or something. Does that work vs tira and knux? no clue

I really am just using that to segue into the optimal scenario in this fight for me is for kirby to barely edge out knuckles as tira is on knuckles side, and then like 10 seconds later she just swaps again and the fight abruptly ends
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Yeah keep in mind Liquid Kirby can make up any sort of thing about the enemy team he wants-- he could say something like "your opponent is piloting a Metal Gear designed to destroy other Metal Gears, and so your only hope is to get out and try to board it"
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I think there are scenarios that Kirby wins in

Convincing Tira to convince Knuckles to get out of his REX isn't one of them
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I think Knuckles by himself could possibly beat Kirby in REX
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If Tira's not gonna believe that Metal Gear RAY exists what is she gonna believe, man.
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Like, the "Your enemy is in a REX killing REX. Get out and board it."

Why would Knuckles get out and go to the ground? More logical placement would be to stay near the top of the REX so he can glide to the other. And then when Kirby shows up an gloats instantly, Knuckles would just get back in

Operation Get Knux Out of REX is a bad argument tbqh
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Knuckles has the fist metal crackem', after all. Not too much a stretch to think he could break REX
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StealThisSheen posted...

Like, the "Your enemy is in a REX killing REX. Get out and board it."

Why would Knuckles get out and go to the ground? More logical placement would be to stay near the top of the REX so he can glide to the other. And then when Kirby shows up an gloats instantly, Knuckles would just get back in

Operation Get Knux Out of REX is a bad argument tbqh

"Your opponents are equipped with a powerful EMP device. If REX gets in reach of them, it will detonate its electronics, killing its pilot. Get Knuckles out of it and sneak through the jungle to ambush them!"

This took five seconds for me to come up with. Liquid Snake can absolutely craft a better lie than me.
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Yeah but this is Kirby pretending to be Nightmare

"HIIIIIII! *blargh BLARGH BLOO*"

Knuckles: ???
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Like, the "Your enemy is in a REX killing REX. Get out and board it."

Why would Knuckles get out and go to the ground? More logical placement would be to stay near the top of the REX so he can glide to the other. And then when Kirby shows up an gloats instantly, Knuckles would just get back in

Operation Get Knux Out of REX is a bad argument tbqh

"Your opponents are equipped with a powerful EMP device. If REX gets in reach of them, it will detonate its electronics, killing its pilot. Get Knuckles out of it and sneak through the jungle to ambush them!"

This took five seconds for me to come up with. Liquid Snake can absolutely craft a better lie than me.

EMP devices don't detonate electronics. Again, flies against the "no dumb or incorrect info" bit. Tira's not an idiot at all.

And then say Liquid DOES come up with a good lie, like "You should ambush them!"

What happens if it actually works since this is Knuckles's home terrain? Knuckles is fast. Not Sonic fast, but still fast. If you give Tira the idea to come up with an ambush/board strategy... That's giving them a dangerous chance to have a plan that actually works.

Again, bad argument.
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Tira is from like the 1200's, she doesnt know what an EMP can or can't do. Not that it matters since Knuckles can win without the REX, so this whole argument is meaningless.
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StealThisSheen posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Like, the "Your enemy is in a REX killing REX. Get out and board it."

Why would Knuckles get out and go to the ground? More logical placement would be to stay near the top of the REX so he can glide to the other. And then when Kirby shows up an gloats instantly, Knuckles would just get back in

Operation Get Knux Out of REX is a bad argument tbqh

"Your opponents are equipped with a powerful EMP device. If REX gets in reach of them, it will detonate its electronics, killing its pilot. Get Knuckles out of it and sneak through the jungle to ambush them!"

This took five seconds for me to come up with. Liquid Snake can absolutely craft a better lie than me.

EMP devices don't detonate electronics. Again, flies against the "no dumb or incorrect info" bit. Tira's not an idiot at all.

And then say Liquid DOES come up with a good lie, like "You should ambush them!"

What happens if it actually works since this is Knuckles's home terrain? Knuckles is fast. Not Sonic fast, but still fast. If you give Tira the idea to come up with an ambush/board strategy... That's giving them a dangerous chance to have a plan that actually works.

Again, bad argument.

So let's go over the facts:

-Kirby has all of Liquid's acumen. Liquid is a noted genius, and a master of strategy and tactics.
-Tira things he's her mentor, and (likely) believes in him absolutely.
-Liquid is a noted manipulator, and capable of getting information out of Tira, enough to piece together what Knux is like, the fact there's a REX, etc. etc. etc.

So why exactly can't Liquid construct a clever lie that will put Tira's team in a bad spot? Don't be literal with my words, SEP, I'm not presenting my specific arguments as gospel. The point is Liquid is brilliant and can come up with something that will work, since he has plenty of time and a ready source of information. Do you really think he can't use that information at all to goad Tira into making mistakes and dragging Knuckles along?
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