Current Events > McEnroe: "Serena Williams would be '700 in the world' on men's tour"

(+) Yeah! (+)

CableZL posted...

Being the most dominant doesn't necessarily mean you're the best. No male tennis player has dominated like Serena Williams has, so they aren't as dominant. That doesn't mean Serena Williams would beat said male tennis players. It just means she was more dominant. Because as you agreed, no one has dominated like she has.

Again, if no one has dominated like she has, then she is the most dominant. It's essentially a statement of how much better she is than her competition over the years.

I see your point, but I think there's an inherent problem with this line of argument. If we're going to define dominance as relative to the competition, then we need to consider all tiers of organized competition (restricting to "organized" to rule out the "I beat my nephew" scenarios). Since we don't have easy access to data on all the tiers of organized competition, we can't actually claim to know whether or not some tennis player might have been even more dominant at their tier of competition (possibly because they didn't move up a tier) than Serena was on the women's pro circuit.
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lilORANG posted...

You can't call someone most dominant of all time if you don't factor in everyone in the game. That includes 8 year olds. She dominates the women's league.

1. 8 year olds aren't "in the game" of professional tennis. Stop using this terrible analogy.
2. If person/team A has dominated like no one else, then person/team A is the most dominant.
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The Admiral posted...

Darkman124 posted...

my question is 'why did he bring this up'

it is widely understood among actual tennis fans of both genders, and a subject of much wailing and gnashing of teeth by non-fans looking for something stupid to tweet about

there's no reason or benefit to talk about it. nobody is claiming she'd do well among mens' leagues (except the morons who feel the need to get upset over his comments)

He said this because the NPR interviewer got on his case when he qualified her as being the best "female" tennis player. This was a fairly stupid line of questioning designed to sound politically correct, and I'm not surprised the clickbait articles ignore this context leading up to it. Here is the interview exchange.

Garcia-Navarro: We're talking about male players but there is of course wonderful female players. Let's talk about Serena Williams. You say she is the best female player in the world in the book.

McEnroe: Best female player ever — no question.

Garcia-Navarro: Some wouldn't qualify it, some would say she's the best player in the world. Why qualify it?

McEnroe: Oh! Uh, she's not, you mean, the best player in the world, period?

Garcia-Navarro: Yeah, the best tennis player in the world. You know, why say female player?

McEnroe: Well because if she was in, if she played the men's circuit she'd be like 700 in the world.

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/25/534149646/but-seriously-tennis-great-john-mcenroe-says-hes-seeking-inner-peace

Well ok then.
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WhinyZach posted...

Politics play the biggest role here, that's why Serena hasn't been caught.

lol no.

Literally the first sentence of your article:

Serena Williams fled to the panic room in her Los Angeles mansion when she mistook a sports association drug tester for a dangerous intruder.

You're trying to make it look like she locked herself in a panic room SOLELY because of the random drug test when in fact, it was because she thought it was an intruder. Considering Sean Taylor literally died 4 years before that because of a home invasion, it's kind of an appropriate response to a random person at your house.

Again; get over yourself. Athletes in all sports have quick injury comeback times. They have the worlds best doctors and trainers at their disposal and keep their bodies in better condition than literally anyone here ever will.
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I don't know why some people aren't getting this dominance argument. You can argue dominance cross sports, gender, even time periods if you want.

"The Chicago Bulls were more dominant than the Patriots are" is a claim that has nothing to do with which of the two would win in a head to head competition in either sport.
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Iodine posted...

The Admiral posted...

Darkman124 posted...

my question is 'why did he bring this up'

it is widely understood among actual tennis fans of both genders, and a subject of much wailing and gnashing of teeth by non-fans looking for something stupid to tweet about

there's no reason or benefit to talk about it. nobody is claiming she'd do well among mens' leagues (except the morons who feel the need to get upset over his comments)

He said this because the NPR interviewer got on his case when he qualified her as being the best "female" tennis player. This was a fairly stupid line of questioning designed to sound politically correct, and I'm not surprised the clickbait articles ignore this context leading up to it. Here is the interview exchange.

Garcia-Navarro: We're talking about male players but there is of course wonderful female players. Let's talk about Serena Williams. You say she is the best female player in the world in the book.

McEnroe: Best female player ever — no question.

Garcia-Navarro: Some wouldn't qualify it, some would say she's the best player in the world. Why qualify it?

McEnroe: Oh! Uh, she's not, you mean, the best player in the world, period?

Garcia-Navarro: Yeah, the best tennis player in the world. You know, why say female player?

McEnroe: Well because if she was in, if she played the men's circuit she'd be like 700 in the world.

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/25/534149646/but-seriously-tennis-great-john-mcenroe-says-hes-seeking-inner-peace

Well ok then.

Yeah, holy shit. That interviewer tried to bait the fuck out of him. What a pile of shit.
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You can't call yourself dominant if you don't play against the best competition at your league (professional in this case)
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Anteaterking posted...

I don't know why some people aren't getting this dominance argument. You can argue dominance cross sports, gender, even time periods if you want.

"The Chicago Bulls were more dominant than the Patriots are" is a claim that has nothing to do with which of the two would win in a head to head competition in either sport.

I mean you can, but when someone says most dominant tennis player ever I instantly think Federer.
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To be 700th in the world as a woman in a sport with men is crazy high.

Like, the womans sprinting record for 100m is still 8% too slow to even qualify for the men's Olympics 100m
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Isnt the real question whether she is the best, not whether she is the most dominant? She certainly is not the best.
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"oh no, girl is muscular. she must be on PEDs!"

WhinyZach posted...

No, athletes come back from injuries in usual times, not accelerated. Most of the time they regress, not get better.

uh, no. And not every athlete gets worse with injury. Some pitchers have pitched better after TJS, aka one of the most serious arm surgeries ever. Older players tend to regress, but younger players are still growing into their athletic prime.

So again, get over yourself. Not most athletes are on PEDs, especially illegal ones. This isn't the 90s/early 00s.
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WhinyZach posted...

Your "lol no" rebuttal was great, I hope you didn't strain too hard coming up with that one.

Considering you're believing that there's some big conspiracy keeping her playing tennis because of the politics of the sport, "lol no" is probably too much of a rebuttal.
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voldothegr8 posted...

I mean you can, but when someone says most dominant tennis player ever I instantly think Federer.

Yeah, but I think that argument would be made on the grounds of his number of Grand Slams, win percentage, etc. not based on whether he can beat Serena in a one on one.
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Anteaterking posted...

I don't know why some people aren't getting this dominance argument. You can argue dominance cross sports, gender, even time periods if you want.

"The Chicago Bulls were more dominant than the Patriots are" is a claim that has nothing to do with which of the two would win in a head to head competition in either sport.

It just seems like splitting hairs between dominance and best is entirely pointless because the concept of dominance in which its being used with this tennis example is an entirely useless metric. So Serena was the most dominant tennis player of all time asterisk asterisk asterisk. This is nothing but a feelgood statement that serves just as much purpose as stating she'd get crushed in a men's league.
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voldothegr8 posted...

Nobody dominated female college basketball like UConn, does that make them better than all the mens teams?

Seriously, women's sports have less parity. Male athletes are closer to one another, where the best teams are normally due to coaching vs. talent (though of course it helps to have talent). Women have a larger talent gap among themselves.
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McEnroe's argument is pretty stupid. Will we now say that Julio Cesar Chavez isn't one of the greatest boxers of the 20th century since he's a welter-weight while Buster Douglas is a heavyweight who has a higher likelihood of knocking Chavez out in a match? McEnroe is willfully ignoring context.
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BB mofo posted...

Will we now say that Julio Cesar Chavez isn't one of the greatest boxers of the 20th century

Best welterweight boxer, sure.

How can you call someone the best ever when they play in a league with inferior competition. Its blatantly disingenuous.

Im gonna create a mma league with only midgets and me, then call myself the most dominant ever lol.
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that would only make sense if you were a midget too
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Turtlebread posted...

that would only make sense if you were a midget too

And it was professionally sanctioned
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Most people in sports are on something, specially the top 1%

It's just naive to think otherwise
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ITT: Darkman124 and Admiral are in full agreement.

His interviewer was clearly pushing him into this area. "Some would say she's the best tennis player in the world"

Who would say that?
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sktgamer_13dude posted...

Sharapova got caught cause she was using a legal substance that became illegal and she didn't know it became illegal cause her trainers didn't tell her.

Lol, that might be the most naive comment I've ever heard in regards to professional sports. The UFC guys are my favorite because they just scapegoat protein powders and whatever else they can think of.
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He's not wrong, but I have to question what the context was here. What was he trying to say? Like was he just trying to stir up some unneeded shit or did someone ask him "Do you think women could play against men?"

Edit: looks like the interviewer was pushing towards this.

I've also got to laugh at Serena's statement. Like, what do you think McEnroe is? He's a pundit. It's his job to give "I reckon" statements about things that could only ever be conjecture.
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pinky0926 posted...

He's not wrong, but I have to question what the context was here. What was he trying to say? Like was he just trying to stir up some unneeded shit or did someone ask him "Do you think women could play against men?"

He called her the best female player in the world.

He was then asked why he specified female and not just best in the world.

He replied because she isn't, if she played on the men's tour she would be like 700th.


He's not wrong and was baited.
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Prime Floyd Mayweather would get destroyed by prime Mike Tyson.
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pinky0926 posted...

I've also got to laugh at Serena's statement. Like, what do you think McEnroe is? He's a pundit. It's his job to give "I reckon" statements about things that could only ever be conjecture.

eh, i kind of understand what's going on there, too.

technically the person violating her privacy was the interviewer, they're the one who forced it on her

but as the interviewer had a pro-serena agenda, she wasn't gonna respond in anger at them for starting this shit

pretty much the interviewer did a minor bad, McEnroe did nothing wrong and was baited, and twitter was just waiting for something a man said to get angry about.
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Darkman124 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

I've also got to laugh at Serena's statement. Like, what do you think McEnroe is? He's a pundit. It's his job to give "I reckon" statements about things that could only ever be conjecture.

eh, i kind of understand what's going on there, too.

technically the person violating her privacy was the interviewer, they're the one who forced it on her

but as the interviewer had a pro-serena agenda, she wasn't gonna respond in anger at them for starting this shit

pretty much the interviewer did a minor bad, McEnroe did nothing wrong and was baited, and twitter was just waiting for something a man said to get angry about.

I just made the mistake of reading twitter to see all the stupid. I am now dumber for having read it.
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pinky0926 posted...

I just made the mistake of reading twitter to see all the stupid. I am now dumber for having read it.

dr. darkman proscribes the following treatment:

read this scientific journal article in full.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.08503
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I'm thinking Lyle McDonald might be the more topical academic writer of choice here:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/womens-physiology/male-and-female-physiology-q-a.html/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/anabolic-steroids-muscle-growth.html/
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BilalPowell posted...

Prime Floyd Mayweather would get destroyed by prime Mike Tyson.

The two would never have been in a boxing match against each other, though. Tyson a heavyweight while Mayweather is a welterweight.
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Yeah I think she would be thereabouts.

Because men are better than women at sports.
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CableZL posted...

voldothegr8 posted...

You said she's probably the most dominant tennis player of all time. That statement to me, and I'm not alone, is saying that she's lumped in with the men. Again, you agree men and women tennis players are a class apart so that statement to me is false, she's the most dominant female tennis player of all time.

Being the most dominant doesn't necessarily mean you're the best. No male tennis player has dominated like Serena Williams has, so they aren't as dominant. That doesn't mean Serena Williams would beat said male tennis players. It just means she was more dominant. Because as you agreed, no one has dominated like she has.

Again, if no one has dominated like she has, then she is the most dominant. It's essentially a statement of how much better she is than her competition over the years.

.....yes in her field, which is women tennis.
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pinky0926 posted...

I'm thinking Lyle McDonald might be the more topical academic writer of choice here:

perhaps, but Dr. Bao is at the forefront of quantum computing and i know personally that he's a dank motherfucker
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Tag
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Darkman124 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

I'm thinking Lyle McDonald might be the more topical academic writer of choice here:

perhaps, but Dr. Bao is at the forefront of quantum computing and i know personally that he's a dank motherfucker

quantum computing is an intensely interesting subject! To non-physicists it seems like magic, though.
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pinky0926 posted...

quantum computing is an intensely interesting subject! To non-physicists it seems like magic, though.

the real magic is the algorithm writing they do

he turned an np-hard problem into a polynomial-hard problem (essentially unsolvable->solvable in a few hours)
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Darkman124 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

quantum computing is an intensely interesting subject! To non-physicists it seems like magic, though.

the real magic is the algorithm writing they do

he turned an np-hard problem into a polynomial-hard problem (essentially unsolvable->solvable in a few hours)

Sounds like a real smarty pants. I bet he's got a degree and everything
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Once again SJWs tearing down an innocent statement to make themselves relevant.
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WhinyZach posted...

sktgamer_13dude posted...

WhinyZach posted...

Your "lol no" rebuttal was great, I hope you didn't strain too hard coming up with that one.

Considering you're believing that there's some big conspiracy keeping her playing tennis because of the politics of the sport, "lol no" is probably too much of a rebuttal.

You're naive, man. When you get a little older you'll learn that these athletes aren't just people who work so much harder than everyone else in their sport lol.

I like the Bill Burr commentary on this, in regards to Lance Armstrong. "So what? Our roided up guy beat your roided up guy."
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pinky0926 posted...

Sounds like a real smarty pants. I bet he's got a degree and everything

yeah but he can't hold alcohol for shit
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voldothegr8 posted...

Nobody dominated female college basketball like UConn, does that make them better than all the mens teams?

I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that being dominant at the women's league is a lot easier than dominating the men's league. Winning as many trophies as Federer did is a much bigger accomplishment than Serena's wins because he did it in the men's league.
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I bet she's get destroyed by a good high school player.
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ITT: people realize men are generally physically superior to women.
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Top D1 college players would beat her, and when those same guys try to play pro they are often ranked 500-700 or worse. There is just no comparison, she can't move and play defense like men can. She hits hard, but when her ball pace seems similar to what men hit it's because her ball is flat(little to no spin). Comparing men's tennis to women's tennis is like comparing the NBA to the WNBA.

This isn't mean to insult her or stain her legacy, but some SJWs in media are pushing a narrative that she is the best PLAYER ever, not the best FEMALE player. The two tours can't be compared to each other. Federer is the best men's player, Serena is the best women's player.

This thread reminds me of all the CEmen saying they would destroy Ronda Rousey in a fight.
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Gojak_v3 posted...

This thread reminds me of all the CEmen saying they would destroy Ronda Rousey in a fight.

how so

0 people in here have claimed they would personally beat williams in a tennis match

it seems more like people are realizing he was baited and the ensuing rage-fest was pretty clearly the intent of the interviewer (and the goal of the people pitching the twitter shit-storm) rather than him doing something inappropriate
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