Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Yu Narukami, Kirby and Tira vs. John Cena, Paine, Metabee and Rikku

(+) Yeah! (+)

(There's also the fact that if you think Rikku is going to do a 'steal kill' on Metabee, there's actually an FMV way this works - she has to reach into his back, open the hatch containing his medal, and pluck it out to neutralize him. But the problem is Metabee has faced this before and he's going to realize her game when she tries it. Being a veteran who's spent ten years saving the world repeatedly helps with knowing your weakpoints and when someone's gunning for them.)
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Metabee doesn't seem the type who's going to be the most aware of ~BETRAYAL~.

His character traits seem to be

Stubborn/Headstrong to the point of being arrogant
Extremely loyal to his friends
Never give up!

While he may be wise to Rikku's game if she were facing him head on, the personalities on his team seem to be ripe to get devastated by a betrayal, as they should be completely blindsided by it and not have a good way to react offhand. Paine is really the only one who'd have some skepticism personalitywise but she's got a long enough history with Rikku that she wouldn't suspect it from her. Both because she trusts Rikku, and because she knows Rikku isn't typically the ~BETRAYING~ type.
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Kirbira
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John Cena hits the Attitude Adjustment on Rikku
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When your ally in the thick of battle (as in straight up in the melee) turns around and runs at you all of a sudden, leaving your other allies alone while battle still rages, you tend to get suspicious. It's not like Rikku is gonna be even remotely near Metabee here - entirely different engagement ranges means there's plenty of time to realize 'hey, something's off'.
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There are a lot of things that could be "off" that would cause a party member to retreat a bit. Given he is extremely loyal and arrogant I don't think he's going to be overly concerned with Rikku should she back up a bit-- and she's kinda sneaky to begin with being a Thief so I would expect a betrayal maneuver to have some degree of nuance to it rather than her just going Eaaagggghh!!! and rushing at him.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

trdl23 posted...

Look, Kanz, I know double negatives are normal in Spanish, but come on.

You do realize I need to specify this due to the dumb fact of the status effects clause normally banning everything that isn't Poison effects? If I don't say 'no, bad Breath is SPECIFICALLY not banned', voter are encouraged to assume it is due to that.

It's not the specific unban I have a problem with, it's that monstrosity of grammar.

Anyway, I'm pretty sold on Metabee and JOHN CENA!
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Lopen posted...

There are a lot of things that could be "off" that would cause a party member to retreat a bit. Given he is extremely loyal and arrogant I don't think he's going to be overly concerned with Rikku should she back up a bit-- and she's kinda sneaky to begin with being a Thief so I would expect a betrayal maneuver to have some degree of nuance to it rather than her just going Eaaagggghh!!! and rushing at him.

You're the one arguing Kirby survives a close encounter with the entire enemy team. Tell me the nuance involved in bailing on a 3v3, turning it into a 2v3 for your allies, cause I'm not seeing it. >_>
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yeah, the writeup is pretty confusing - I read it quickly and saw "NOT Bad Breath" (which is a thing that would be banned in most mercs anyway) and assumed it was a ban

I dunno if you're using this again but I would probably shuffle it around to something like

She cannot use Death and Break Arcana, the Full Throttle special dressphere, Sleepy Shuffle, Brake-Dance, Stone Breath and Seed Cannon (but she CAN use all other Arcanas, all other dances/songs, and Bad Breath). She does not have access to any auto abilities that grant status effects except SOS versions.
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Yeah it was a hack job, ngl

I'll definitely keep that correction in mind. Thanks Drak!
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Who said Kirby has to survive a close encounter? They're loud and the terrain is fairly open. Kirby will see them before he's point blank. If they see him, good, he vroom vrooms away and Rikku gets to KO Metabee for free without needing to adjust herself. If they don't, Kirby's team has intel advantage and can probably pick a good ambush spot given their complete terrain knowledge.
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Lopen posted...

Who said Kirby has to survive a close encounter? They're loud and the terrain is fairly open. Kirby will see them before he's point blank. If they see him, good, he vroom vrooms away and Rikku gets to KO Metabee for free without needing to adjust herself. If they don't, Kirby's team has intel advantage and can probably pick a good ambush spot given their complete terrain knowledge.

A good ambush spot against an invisible man?

Really, this argument I actually think is mostly reasonable. Mostly. Seeking an ambush spot makes sense for Team Yu to do, instead of sending Kirby in to scout to...verify something they already know? The problem is that even the most ideal ambush possible isn't gonna get through...hold on a sec, lemme look...

-Shell and Protect.
-185% magic defense/phys.
-Doubled HP.

That's seriously a hell of a lot of tank right there, even on Rikku and Paine who are the squishiest members of the team. Let's say for the sake of argument that Team Yu's ambush succeeds. Then what? Their enemies are still not gonna be dead from it because they are super, super tanky. The battle starts in earnest, Cena gets an Attitude Adjustment in on Yu and that's really all she wrote.
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Scouting is good to determine enemy team formation, angle of approach, about when they'll show up, etc etc. Kirby doesn't have to get caught for it to be useful and of course he won't be intending to be caught (you're the one who said he'd be in jeopardy if he went to scout, not me!)-- but if he is it only helps.

The ambush doesn't need to instantly kill anyone-- it just needs to put the enemy team at enough of an initial disadvantage that they're playing on defense. At that point Yu's team has all but won as the enemy team is on a 30 second kill clock and it will be exceedingly difficult to win in 30 seconds starting disadvantaged, particularly when the enemy team has two party full heal options
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Considering one of Yu or Tira is getting caught offguard and destroyed by Cena, the 30 sec kill clock isn't so unlikely. The trick is that Team Cena doesn't even need to win in those 30 seconds - it just needs to get one kill to retain numbers advantage. If Rikku turns, all that happens is the match resets to even, but one side's still megaboosted with buffs and the other one isn't. If you then assume the fight is going long, she turns again in 30 secs and at that point Team Kirby is absolutely doomed. Very specific timeframe and results needed for Team Kirby to eke out a win - need to get the ambush, then needs to get kill advantage against a turbobuffed team, then needs to finish the fight in less than 30 secs afterward. Meanwhile the other side just needs to get one kill to have the match go their way. Which one seems more likely?
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Cena would never abuse his stealth in such a way. Far too much Respect for that. You need the fabled Thuganomics Assassin Cena to humor such a lethal strategy.
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Lopen posted...

Cena would never abuse his stealth in such a way. Far too much Respect for that. You need the fabled Thuganomics Assassin Cena to humor such a lethal strategy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnlBJh78FiM
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I was about to post that, thank you Chris
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Bray Wyatt is a villain, and a known fiend, and had two henchmen. This Cena faces people he knows no such things about, and he faces them while his team has the numbers advantage

You'll find on the whole, Cena has a long and storied career of facing new challengers head on

He's not going to skulk around like some sorta hooligan. I expect his most likely use of his invisibility will be to shout YOU CAN'T SEE ME!!! and do his hand waving taunt, point blank, before unloading some right hands, or to observe from the 'backstage area,' waiting to assist his team until the point when they're in need. Which, of course, in typical Cena fashion, will come just a bit too late.
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It's important to properly characterize the mindset of Cena.

He's not above taking shortcuts, but it generally only ever occurs when his opponent has wronged him not only first, but consistently. Keep in mind 'wrong' does not mean 'beaten' or even necessarily 'cheated.' AJ Styles had Cena's number, but outside the initial victory where The Club interfered, generally had so in a clean straightforward manner. As a result, contests between Cena and AJ Styles were generally honest affairs, where Cena placed winning in a way that proved he was the better man over winning at any cost.

However, if an opponent continually attempts to stack the deck against him, or assaults him from behind, turnabout is fair play, but against unknown foes, his default isn't going to be to ambush them. His default mindset is to face his opponent, head on, even to his detriment. It's only when he's really been pushed to extreme measures that he'll employ any sort of underhanded measure-- and that includes a sneak attack.
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On the other hand though, he's also not all about leaving his allies to hang - and especially not against dishonest opponents. You think he's not gonna think turnabout is fair play after an ambush? If Yu and friends approached just looking for a honest fight, he'd oblige them, but someone who sneak attacks first? Well, as you said - turnabout is fair play.
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Like I said, the opponents kinda need to be repeat offenders for him to resort to giving them a dose of their own medicine. Despite the help of The Club screwing him in their first clash, Cena didn't go underhanded against AJ. Instead he challenged AJ Styles to battle him straight up, man to man. Depending on how successful the ambush appears to be, he may enter the fray, but I think he'll probably do so by going toe to toe with some right hands rather than an AA from behind, as he will think he can win without resorting to trickery to start.
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Cena is a guy that used duct tape to win a last man standing match
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Yes, and he also choked Umaga with ring ropes to win a last man standing match

But this was after many attempts to beat them without shenanigan first. Cena doesn't resort to foul play at the drop of the hat-- he really needs to be backed into a corner to do it. If he's doing that in this match, when he has a numbers advantage, that's probably not something you want argued because that means the ambush has gone especially well.
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Lopen posted...

Yes, and he also choked Umaga with ring ropes to win a last man standing match

But this was after many attempts to beat them without shenanigan first. Cena doesn't resort to foul play at the drop of the hat-- he really needs to be backed into a corner to do it. If he's doing that in this match, when he has a numbers advantage, that's probably not something you want argued because that means the ambush has gone especially well.

I disagree.

Cena used duct tape because it was within the rules

Cena used the ropes because it was within the rules

Cena typically doesn't do those things because they're against the rules 90% of the time

Cena will do anything... As long as it's within the rules. That's where the "hustle" part comes in. He has abused lax rules on more than one occasion.

An ambush is within the rules.
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John Cena has had many many more matches that were no DQ where he fought honestly than matches where he hasn't. It needs to be within the rules and against an opponent who "deserves" it.
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All Cena needs to know is the other team are his enemies and they are trying to kill his team

You'd have a case if he NEVER ambushed people or bent the rules, but he has more than you'd think. This "The other team has to deserve it" likely doesn't apply in a fight to the death
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If you're really going down that road where he's really digesting that people are about to be killed, Cena would perhaps be even more likely to hold back. Cena is no murderer. It's his morality that separates him from the villains of this world.
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On the other hand though, Cena hails from a world of superheroes and supermonsters - he's not basic John Cena, he's John Cena Evolved, from a world where The Rock is a literal rock monster, Taker is an embodiment of death, and Brock Lesnar is the Beast Incarnate himself. He knows that when fights get serious, his enemies will not hold back - so he needs to put his full effort into it, even if he fights to incapacitate and not kill them.
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Lopen posted...

If you're really going down that road where he's really digesting that people are about to be killed, Cena would perhaps be even more likely to hold back. Cena is no murderer. It's his morality that separates him from the villains of this world.

Bad argument is bad. The dude literally ambushed Nexus in their hotel rooms. The guy's morality only goes so far.
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Nexus had a 7 on 1 man advantage and assaulted him from behind like 10 times. Like I said, I'm not saying he will never use his invisibility to try to assassinate a dude, just that this match doesn't really fit the profile. HIS team is the one with the man advantage here.
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Lopen posted...

Nexus had a 7 on 1 man advantage and assaulted him from behind like 10 times. Like I said, I'm not saying he will never use his invisibility to try to assassinate a dude, just that this match doesn't really fit the profile. HIS team is the one with the man advantage here.

Trying to kill other people >>>> assaulting him on the John Cena Srs Meter. He brings the Authority back to stop Edge from having his neck broken!
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And y'know, in case anyone doubts the power of the Cena ambush strike vs 3 people...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syWQZ16yklc

This time he's invisible. And a superhero. And buffed up to the eyebrows. Cena wins here, ain't no point arguin' bout that.
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He brings the authority back. He doesn't try to break Seth Rollins's neck with a cinder block. That's the difference in what you're preaching here. Cena's moral compass is pretty much lose-lose. Either he really absorbs this as a DEADLY situation in which case he's going to try and use suppressive force, not assassination, or he doesn't and thus the situation isn't gauged as one where he needs to be underhanded.

(This is why this invisibility thing is a dumb ability for Cena btw. You basically only argue Cena using it with ruthless efficiency if you don't know Cena or you really want the wrestler to win.)
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Cena has a very good build for this battle . I feel he counters yu and kirby
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Lopen posted...

He brings the authority back. He doesn't try to break Seth Rollins's neck with a cinder block. That's the difference in what you're preaching here. Cena's moral compass is pretty much lose-lose. Either he really absorbs this as a DEADLY situation in which case he's going to try and use suppressive force, not assassination, or he doesn't and thus the situation isn't gauged as one where he needs to be underhanded.

(This is why this invisibility thing is a dumb ability for Cena btw. You basically only argue Cena using it with ruthless efficiency if you don't know Cena or you really want the wrestler to win.)

There's nothing underhanded about it, though. How else would you use invisibility? It's within the rules, and it's specifically an ability of his for the fight.

You're trying to turn this into something it's not.
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That's my point. Cena isn't the kinda guy who is actually going to abuse his invisibility in 90% of matches so it's stupid to give it to him.
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Cena's team

Him using the invisibility is well within the rules/not underhanded. He has done things like use duct tape and choke somebody out to win matches where he was allowed to. And the main argument against him is "His opponents have to deserve it for him to do it."

Well, knowing the opposing team wants to kill him and his team is certainly deserving.

He's definitely a hard counter to Yu and Kirbs, and Tira's a jobber.
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What tipped it in that favor is that this is Immortals Cena, btw

It's "underhanded" for him to use super speed or fly against enemies that don't have super speed and can't fly, but he does, so. Invisibility is no different than that.
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Not really, no. Those are more like trying to argue Cena wouldn't lift a cruiserweight because he's stronger than them.

Trying to sneak up on a guy and hit him from behind is a decidedly uncena thing to do unless he's been pushed to it.
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Lopen posted...

Not really, no. Those are more like trying to argue Cena wouldn't lift a cruiserweight because he's stronger than them.

Trying to sneak up on a guy and hit him from behind is a decidedly uncena thing to do unless he's been pushed to it.

In his second Super, he uses his super speed to disorient his opponent and then attacks them from behind, so...

You wrong, son.
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Attacking a guy that isn't facing you because you maneuvered yourself behind them in the fight is not the same as blindsiding a dude. One is a sneak attack which isn't in Cena's character, one is just hitting a guy who doesn't happen to be facing you, which wrestlers do all the time and isn't exactly called underhanded.
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Lopen posted...

Attacking a guy that isn't facing you because you maneuvered yourself behind them in the fight is not the same as blindsiding a dude. One is a sneak attack which isn't in Cena's character, one is just hitting a guy who doesn't happen to be facing you, which wrestlers do all the time and isn't exactly called underhanded.

They're only not facing him because he used his super speed to disorient them! That's pretty much equal to an eye-gouge in wrestling!

You argument fails

Sorry for your daaaaamn luck
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This is probably the mindset Vince McMahon employs when he decides cruiserweights shouldn't get any sort of focus.

"They're moving too fast! That's like an eye gouge! It's cheating! We can't have that representing the company!"
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Tell me the next time TJ Perkins makes somebody spin around in a dizzy state because he ran past them
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Well he does do that hang in the ropes thing then slip out of the way, causing them to spill out of the ring.

Definitely cheatyface abuse of his speed if I ever saw it.
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im going to let you guys determine if this is relevant


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Sting in a sting mask
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you're either with nexus or against us
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It seems Cena has odds to overcome. We know how that goes
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