Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Crono and Sol Badguy vs. Nilin, Sub-Zero, Booker deWitt and Lightning

(+) Yeah! (+)

Crono and Sol Badguy have challenged Nilin, Sub-Zero, Booker deWitt and Lightning to a King of Fighters team fight! Location of the fight: The Leaking Brain - A dive located in Deep-Paris, in the structure of a boat. The boat, as well as all nearby shacks and walkways are accessible. Attackers will start by the turbine, while defenders will start behind the bar. The fighters will fight successive 1 vs 1 battles in their respective orders with no breaks, starting 10 yards from each other at each match. Until it's their turn to fight, none of them can be interacted with in any way. Which side will win?

Guidelines

- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of a pre-selected plan of battle.
- "Broken" refers to a lot of things, including insta-death, auto-effects, a variety of status effects (e.g., Imp, Silence, Stop, *not* Poison), and revival. Unless stated otherwise, nobody has them, though do use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

Rules for Voting

- Bold your votes (using bold HTML tags).
- You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
- Leaders cannot vote for their own teams (and players from the same pool may not vote as well), but they are free to argue their case.
- If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
- This match will end in 24 hours.
- The following conventions are in use for match topics: www.gamefaqs.com/boards/570224-mercs/75290480/878106427


Crono is as he appears in Chrono Trigger (DS), with his best non-broken equipment and all his techs save for Life. Dual/Triple techs with other Crono Trigger characters are allowed.

Sol Badguy is as he appears in the gameplay of Guilty Gear Accent Core. He has access to all his moves save for gameplay mechanic-y things (e.g., Fautless Defense), though he cannot remove his limiter, is in his "normal" mode, and must build up his supers.

~VS~

Nilin is as she appears in Remember Me, fully upgraded with all of her Pressens and S-Pressens apart from Sensen RIP.

Sub-Zero is as seen in Mortal Kombat X, with his entire moveset from all three variations, although he must charge up X-Ray moves etc. in order to use them. He will receive a 50% boost to all parameters until Lightning is eliminated in battle.

Booker DeWitt is as seen throughout BioShock Infinite, with access to all of his fully upgraded weaponry as well as all of his vigors save Possession and Return to Sender.

Lightning is as she appears in the endgame of Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII, with a schemata set-up featuring a balance of her strongest physical, magical and debuffing skills and equipment, and with limited use of Curaga. She will receive a 50% boost to all parameters until Sub-Zero is eliminated in battle.

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HEAVEN OR HELL! DUEL ONE! LET'S ROCK! FIGHT!
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@DeathChicken
@Tirofog

The floor is yours.
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DC's argument:

Deceptively simple. Sol Badguy is an utter monster and, starting ten yards out from this crew, just stomps them into a mud puddle one by one (helpfully under King of Fighters rules, they are forced to come at him one by one like a bunch of black ninjas) until he gets to Lightning. Then it gets interesting, but having walked all over three chumps to get here, Sol is quite likely to have his Tension built up by that fight. Then it's Dragon Install time and Lightning goes splat.

Also Crono is here too I guess, 'woo'
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Tiro's argument:

The numbers advantage can't be overstated here - all 4 of my fighters are capable of doing damage here and can contribute in a meaningful way. Even Nilin, who's normally an afterthought in matches, can do some damage here thanks to the 10 yard stipulation. Her hand to hand skills are more impressive than I expected:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL5-zQKUz0c . I think the matchup between her and Crono is interesting, and at the bare minimum, she gets some good hits in.

Next up is Sub-Zero - in a normal match, Crono/Subby is a tossup, but don't forget: Sub-Zero has a 50% parameter boost in battle. This gives him an edge here, especially over the conditions which allow him to get up close and personal. Here's some Mortal Kombat X gameplay, if you feel like judging for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR-z1a24lgY&t=135s

Booker is more of a midrange fighter, but he has the Vigors and weaponry to be effective up close as well. And don't forget about what the Skyhook can do if given the chance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX2WszM-ZPc.

Finally is Lightning - I know that Sol has some ridiculous anime/cutscene feats, especially in later games, but given that his writeup specifies that he's as seen in the gameplay of Accent Core, I personally wouldn't give those feats much merit. And I don't think anything I saw in the gameplay for Sol compares to what Lightning can do: https://youtu.be/x7Qy_jTK74M?t=150.

This is definitely an interesting matchup, but I think the numbers and Lightning as the anchor fighter bring this one home.
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Yeah "gameplay Sol" imo is why Sol is a 4/week and not a match for Lightning (though I'm not sure why Lightning wasn't put out before Sub-Zero-- 50% more parameters would probably make her crush Sol even if you don't take the "gameplay Sol" to mean much)
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Yeah, "Gameplay Sol" is a dumb thing and gonna get stomped
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I feel like "Gameplay Sol" isn't actually a thing because "FMV Sol" is also a thing per current rules. Plus it's really dumb
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DeathChicken posted...

I feel like "Gameplay Sol" isn't actually a thing because "FMV Sol" is also a thing per current rules. Plus it's really dumb

Must...not...soapbox about how gameplay only mercs are cancer...
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*Plus* it's Guilty Gear, so even 'gameplay' is full of FMVs showing Sol's actual power level. Guilty Gear gonna Guilty Gear regardless of Mercs stupid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFBdvbmjCCQ&t=0m35s
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sol

That's XRD not Accent Core!
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Sol Badguy is as he appears in the gameplay of Guilty Gear Accent Core

KanzarisKelshen posted...

- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.

[Confusion]

Welcome to mixing M4 rules with M1 builds.
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Or is that an M2 build?
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its m2 lol
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-FFDragon- posted...

Welcome to mixing M4 rules with M1 builds.

Don't worry, we have M4 builds like that too.

That might somehow be worse

Wasn't M2 where like Walter Sullivan broke the game?
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M2 is definitely worse than M1. M2 manages to be super broken in places while pretending to be a balanced game. M1 is at least just ridiculous everywhere.
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out of curiousity, Lopen, should i buy GUILTY GEAR Xrd -SIGN-

or GUILTY GEAR Xrd -REVELATOR-

the former is 9 bux on steam and the other is like 23.
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Well -REVELATOR- is just better, but close enough to the same game. Depends what you value 8 more characters + assorted random upgrades at and how much interest you have in Guilty Gear to begin with.

Now if you want it due to MERCS you'll only get Dizzy in -REVELATOR-
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dizzy is lame so i really don't care about her so, sounds good to me im just gonna play it for probably 3 hours anyway might as well be cost efficient !!!
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Anywho I have zero interest in arguing a Hail Mary interpretation of a Mercs rule that equally contradicts itself between two sentences, but yeah, I think it's very likely that Sol kicks everyone's ass in one on one matches besides Lightning, and by then he he'll have full Tension for Dragon Install (by any interpretation. Even has it in his writeup!) to detonate her
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yeah this match is basically just Sol vs. Lightning but I'm not sold either way on that
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lightning starting in melee range seems bad to me

thats all i got really, would need to watch GAMEPLAY videos of accent core
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Seems actually worse to me, since it means Lightning is less likely to go to debuffs and is more likely to try and fend off the guy with the giant sword right up in her grill. That goes badly. As seen above, Dragon Install Sol will explode you messily in short range
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Also why the KoF format plays hugely to his advantage. Whatever argument could be made about his supers not being up (or Dragon Install draining his health. Guilty Gear works under the princple of 'You can fire off your big flashy deathmoves all you want, just if your meter isn't charged it'll hurt you'), it kinda goes away when he's previously going to have had 2 to 3 scrubs to beat on first. The number depending on how may you think Crono can take down first
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I think the video Kanz posted of Lightning has all her abilities working super short ranged actually
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Lightning solos
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greengravy294 posted...

I think the video Kanz posted of Lightning has all her abilities working super short ranged actually

If you hardline and say Lightning only gets what she'd get out of her defaults + three schemata from LR (12 moves basically) yes. If you give her any showings she's done at lower power levels then you get her doing stuff from pretty damn long range in FF13-2. So uh...your call there.
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-FFDragon- posted...

That might somehow be worse

Wasn't M2 where like Walter Sullivan broke the game?

Also yes we had builds like that. The most notable one was Kerrigan (so fucking dumb that she was gameplay clipped, SO DUMB), but Kasumi also had that too until I bitched at Luis to just give her cutscene showings so she could go from being a shitty 2/week to a strong 5.
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Well what I am saying is that most of her debuffing magic is actually like her attacking with a sword at actual short range
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just bought GUILTY GEAR Xrd -SIGN- to research gameplay Sol Badguy
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greengravy294 posted...

Well what I am saying is that most of her debuffing magic is actually like her attacking with a sword at actual short range

Last I checked it isn't. Stuff like Imperil is just chucked out.
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M2 was pretty much trying to figure out how to bridge M1 to M3 and was never prepped for so there's plenty of iffy stuff. the gameplay writeup stuff though, that's def a M1 holdover and you could see it getting weened off as time passed.

it's always been a weird thing, though does have some defining aspects from time to time. feats and whatnot were always valid even in those writeups, it's just more of "how do they perform?" sort of things. Dante would be an example where gameplay vs. cutscene is a huge diff not just in capabilities but literally styles - Trickster is gameplay for DMC3 and allows teleportation, no styles exist in cutscenes and he maybe shows something like it once in DMC4. for fighters, especially like GG, the only thing it really does is define that supers take a while to charge. a bunch of scenes happen in gameplay for that series.

really the biggest holdover to the match isn't "gameplay Sol," it's "Accent Core Sol." there's a big difference in that in canon.
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Well to put that in perspective, this is right around the timeline when he canonically beats Evil Dizzy, so yeah
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DeathChicken posted...

Well to put that in perspective, this is right around the timeline when he canonically beats Evil Dizzy, so yeah

Other things AC Sol does:

-Survives killing his past self in spite of time paradox because fuck you, Sol Badguy
-Has already defeated Justice, who razed Japan, and did so without taking off his limiter IIRC.
-Subdues Dizzy...multiple times...even when she's berserked. Again, did so without taking off the limiter.
-Blows up a skyscraper sized Gear with a tyrant rave.

There might be more I'm forgetting about, I think?
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The fact he never takes off the damn Limiter is another thing. He just keeps getting more powerful as time goes on, to the point where it starts breaking because hell if Limiters can actually stop Sol Badguy

Luckily, this is not quite at that point! Unluckily, even without that he's a ridiculous force of nature that can frankly take out people of Lightning's caliber at half-effort. And has.
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DeathChicken posted...

Luckily, this is not quite at that point! Unluckily, even without that he's a ridiculous force of nature that can frankly take out people of Lightning's caliber at half-effort. And has.

Fair enough. Had +50% Lightning come first, I'd give it her, but sounds like SOL-OS Badguy
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I don't even think I can stress enough how dumb "Kills Justice, also beats Dizzy while the evil wing had made her insane", but here we are with Sol at the point where Accent Core happened.
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Yeah I think Sol probably takes this. Receptive to further arguments, but his feats are really good. Gonna need some more selling on Lightning to take her here.
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Oh yeah, this is also where he beats I-no. Really the only one explicitly above Sol at this point was That Man
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DeathChicken posted...

Oh yeah, this is also where he beats I-no. Really the only one explicitly above Sol at this point was That Man

Yeah, someone might say 'but Slayer' but Slayer has always treated Sol like an equal. Both are massive powerhouses.
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honestly the only hope i have is that people see this and realize that this was AC, before GG2 and Xrd, and that the feats where he does need to take off his limiter go beyond what he's doing here.
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Sol-os

Not even a match. Lucky damn Epoch, DC
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You know Lightning is supposed to start hidden in a neutral location to both teams here.

I'm not sure that would change votes but it might be arguable they don't start at 10m apart in that case. Feels like it should be in the writeup
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@KanzarisKelshen just to be sure things are done properly here.
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Lopen posted...

You know Lightning is supposed to start hidden in a neutral location to both teams here.

I'm not sure that would change votes but it might be arguable they don't start at 10m apart in that case. Feels like it should be in the writeup

I didn't include that because I'm pretty sure FIGHTASS overrides that. It's kinda fuzzy but the fight resets when she enters the ring so I figure the way it works is she starts hidden in a neutral location from both teams, then her team gets bodied, then she enters and is no longer hidden anymore. Makes the most sense.
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I feel like Lightning's displacement would take precedence cause it was declared second but *shrug your game!
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Lopen posted...

I feel like Lightning's displacement would take precedence cause it was declared second but *shrug your game!

It's definitely kinda fuzzy and I think me and trdl will take the time to discuss how to resolve any such cases going forward so we have a known order of operations (and if it jives with this precedent all the better, but if we find a better way we'll use that), but for this match assume it works that way.
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Pretty sure it has come up, and with Pudge at that, and it was run that last resolved ability had priority, but no published ruling I can find and I can't really look for them now.
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