Current Events > FGC and Smash language differences

(+) Yeah! (+)

ManSpread posted...

so again, how is injustice 2 more difficult than guilty gear

This statement doesn't compute. A fighting game is only as difficult as the skill of the person you're fighting.

ManSpread posted...

"it [GG] doesnt have anywhere near the amount of mind games and technical complexity of injustice 2"

This, however, I can elaborate on.

Mind games are for the most part played on a player-to-player level. Injustice 2 has an intense way with a lot of characters who can either play a game and/or force an opponent's character to play a game that they're not good at. Every character has got great potential. Lots of people complain about Deadshot and Batman, but those are basically just scrub eaters. At the top level, all the characters are viable.

As for the technical complexity, the meter burn mechanic throws a huge monkey wrench in terms of combat flow. You can use it to punish safe moves, escape a combo that you otherwise wouldn't escape, gain some crucial health at the last second to do an epic comeback, or continue a combo for extra hits when it otherwise would have ended earlier. Burns can also be used to transform moves into something totally different, such as Supergirl's Kryptonian Force being turned from a charge/rush/knockback move to a projectile that disables. They both start up the same, however, so sometimes you won't know what's happening until it's too late.

In addition to meter burning, every stage has interactives, which are enabled in the default competitive mode. The interactables can turn the tide, let people obtain better positioning, escape from a corner, launch a combo off of them. Some interactives can only be used once, some can be used multiple times, additionally different characters will use the exact same interactive differently. For example, in Fortress of Solitude, If you're playing Superman, backed against the left corner, he'll smash the wall and cause an icicle to fall down on the opponent. Playing someone like Harley Quinn instead, she'll instead run up the wall and jump off it to the opposite side, placing her opponent in the corner instead. These can, of course, also be anticipated / interrupted / countered. Stage transitions also add a dangerous element to being tucked away in a corner but are very hard to actually pull off. It's a free 1/5th damage that can't be clashed out of if you can do that, however.

The game is also slower paced and methodical, you have a lot more time to think which means you have a lot more time to hesitate and thus more mind games. Injustice rewards people who can maintain control of a fight. GG rewards people who get the first good combo in with a dizzy and it's game over.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

GG rewards people who get the first good combo in with a dizzy and it's game over.

so you dont know what the fuck you're talking about

got it
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ManSpread posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

GG rewards people who get the first good combo in with a dizzy and it's game over.

so you dont know what the fuck you're talking about

got it

Excellent comeback. I'll make sure to remember this the next time I type out a 3 paragraph serious response to your bullshit trolling.
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Dizzy doesn't really happen in GG without multiple solid combos in quick succession. It's far from a game like the later versions of SF2 where combo>dizzy>win was the name of the game.

You'd have been better off saying GG is all about oki mixups, which is much more true.
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https://streamable.com/skucs

was so game over man
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ManSpread posted...

https://streamable.com/skucs

was so game over man

Congrats, you found a video of the biggest fucking Choke since Falcons at the Superbowl. You want a medal?

Most games with a dizzy result in the dizzy guy losing and you know it.
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Dragonblade01 posted...

Dizzy doesn't really happen in GG without multiple solid combos in quick succession. It's far from a game like the later versions of SF2 where combo>dizzy>win was the name of the game.

You'd have been better off saying GG is all about oki mixups, which is much more true.

Yeah, if you're gonna bitch about GG, bitch about danger time, oki mixups (lookin right the fuck at you Millia Rage and Zato-1), or YRC, not fucking dizzy combos lmfao
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ChromaticAngel posted...

ManSpread posted...

https://streamable.com/skucs

was so game over man

Congrats, you found a video of the biggest fucking Choke since Falcons at the Superbowl. You want a medal?

Most games with a dizzy result in the dizzy guy losing and you know it.

https://clips.twitch.tv/ThirstyCautiousFrogPermaSmug

guess who won that set

spoiler alert it wasnt hotashi
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ManSpread posted...

Yeah, if you're gonna bitch about GG, bitch about danger time, oki mixups (lookin right the fuck at you Millia Rage and Zato-1), or YRC, not fucking dizzy combos lmfao

I pick on dizzy because it's a shit mechanic in any game ever. No matter what else a game has to complain about. If it has dizzy, you can add dizzy to the list of shit that is bad about the game.
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dont forget money match vs cash battle and mirror vs ditto.
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I mean, I agree that dizzy is kind of pointless as a mechanic most of the time, but the point is that GG isn't about dizzying the opponent. No part of the GG meta is about forcing the character into a dizzy state.
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MwarriorHiei posted...

dont forget money match vs cash battle and mirror vs ditto.

lmfao are cash battle and dizzo actual terms?

also i totally forgot that smash ripped off the whole five gods concept from street fighter
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ChromaticAngel posted...

ManSpread posted...

https://streamable.com/skucs

was so game over man

Congrats, you found a video of the biggest fucking Choke since Falcons at the Superbowl. You want a medal?

Most games with a dizzy result in the dizzy guy losing and you know it.

So he finds proof against your statement and that's your comeback? lol
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Dragonblade01 posted...

I mean, I agree that dizzy is kind of pointless as a mechanic most of the time, but the point is that GG isn't about dizzying the opponent. No part of the GG meta is about forcing the character into a dizzy state.

chromatic also said that Guilty Gear has braindead combos that are impossible to mess up

either he's this inept or thinks stylish mode is how people actually play the game

p sure he also groaned about instant kill when they very rarely actually happen and require pretty specific conditions to land
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Cookie Bag posted...

So he finds proof against your statement and that's your comeback? lol

cherry picking videos isn't proof against literally anything in any argument.
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No, but he found something against your argument, the least you could do is find something to counter it instead of "lol cherry picking you lose"

I mean, do you want to have a debate, or just flail your dick around like a high school kid and throw as many sarcastic comments as possible to "win"?
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ManSpread posted...

MwarriorHiei posted...

dont forget money match vs cash battle and mirror vs ditto.

lmfao are cash battle and dizzo actual terms?

https://twitter.com/SmashProJJFF/status/583848966715875328
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Cookie Bag posted...

No, but he found something against your argument, the least you could do is find something to counter it instead of "lol cherry picking you lose"

I mean, do you want to have a debate, or just flail your dick around like a high school kid and throw as many sarcastic comments as possible to "win"?

See post #52.

Thanks.
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MwarriorHiei posted...

dont forget money match vs cash battle and mirror vs ditto.

Not a single smash person uses cash battle holy fuck. I casually watch smash and i can tell you not one person has ever used cash battle. Nor when i went to any melee meetups with my friend did we ever hear cash battle.

This is why the FGC is such shit. Angry manchildren who hate other games being popular that doesnt fit their brand of "this is what a fighting game is"



Case in point: TC makes more topics bitching about smash than he does about actual fighting game discussion.

Its actually pretty pathetic
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PlsGodDontBanMe posted...

Not a single smash person uses cash battle holy fuck. I casually watch smash and i can tell you not one person has ever used cash battle. Nor when i went to any melee meetups with my friend did we ever hear cash battle.

https://twitter.com/SmashProJJFF/status/583848966715875328

literally smash pros using the term
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Cookie Bag posted...

So he finds proof against your statement and that's your comeback? lol

cherry picking videos isn't proof against literally anything in any argument.

and like we've said, if you know anything about GG is doesnt revolve around making your opponent see birds and it most certainly doesnt guarantee a win

the real point is GG has a huge mountain of mechanics injustice doesnt even begin to get close to

shit like dead angles, danger time, yrc (a shit mechanic but a mechanic nonethless), resource management besides meter, injustice having easier and less complex inputs, iADs, etc etc

anime games are pretty much the hardest fighting games and everyone knows this
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MwarriorHiei posted...

PlsGodDontBanMe posted...

Not a single smash person uses cash battle holy fuck. I casually watch smash and i can tell you not one person has ever used cash battle. Nor when i went to any melee meetups with my friend did we ever hear cash battle.

https://twitter.com/SmashProJJFF/status/583848966715875328

literally smash pros using the term

I mean it looks like an exhibition thing for fun. I don't think expecting a cash battle at Evo is realistic.
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PlsGodDontBanMe posted...

MwarriorHiei posted...

dont forget money match vs cash battle and mirror vs ditto.

Not a single smash person uses cash battle holy fuck. I casually watch smash and i can tell you not one person has ever used cash battle. Nor when i went to any melee meetups with my friend did we ever hear cash battle.

This is why the FGC is such shit. Angry manchildren who hate other games being popular that doesnt fit their brand of "this is what a fighting game is"



Case in point: TC makes more topics bitching about smash than he does about actual fighting game discussion.

Its actually pretty pathetic

nobody wants to have actual, legitimate, intelligent FG discussion on this board most of the time

its why i rarely talk about shmups either, nobody here really plays them

thats why i shitpost about smash

and have also admitted to several times in the past enjoying playing it casually
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ManSpread posted...

and like we've said, if you know anything about GG is doesnt revolve around making your opponent see birds and it most certainly doesnt guarantee a win

that's not the fucking point. You shit on Capcom, I shit on Dizzy. It's just the way of the universe. Dragging out my entire fucking elaboration as if I spent the whole post talking about Dizzy in GG when it was just one fucking sentence. You're completely ignoring the rest of it which is just a dismissal as you either don't have an argument or didn't think about it very hard.
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didn't smash fans boo during some major tournament because guilty gear top 8 was running late and they had to wait longer for smash to start?

and it was also smash fans who left immediately after smash top 8 is over so they don't support or care for any of the other games in the fgc
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ChromaticAngel posted...

ManSpread posted...

and like we've said, if you know anything about GG is doesnt revolve around making your opponent see birds and it most certainly doesnt guarantee a win

that's not the fucking point. You shit on Capcom, I shit on Dizzy. It's just the way of the universe. Dragging out my entire fucking elaboration as if I spent the whole post talking about Dizzy in GG when it was just one fucking sentence. You're completely ignoring the rest of it which is just a dismissal as you either don't have an argument or didn't think about it very hard.

meter and jumping off a wall doesnt make injustice 2 more complex than GG

see:

ManSpread posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

Cookie Bag posted...

So he finds proof against your statement and that's your comeback? lol

cherry picking videos isn't proof against literally anything in any argument.

and like we've said, if you know anything about GG is doesnt revolve around making your opponent see birds and it most certainly doesnt guarantee a win

the real point is GG has a huge mountain of mechanics injustice doesnt even begin to get close to

shit like dead angles, danger time, yrc (a shit mechanic but a mechanic nonethless), resource management besides meter, injustice having easier and less complex inputs, iADs, etc etc

anime games are pretty much the hardest fighting games and everyone knows this

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ChromaticAngel posted...

Cookie Bag posted...

No, but he found something against your argument, the least you could do is find something to counter it instead of "lol cherry picking you lose"

I mean, do you want to have a debate, or just flail your dick around like a high school kid and throw as many sarcastic comments as possible to "win"?

See post #52.

Thanks.

I mean, you talking about what you think makes the game better than the other isn't really much to go against a video of the game in motion showing how one of your points was wrong, that's why its not hard to ignore that wall of text, specially if your next statement is a sarcastic comment about the whole thing.
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CheezyPuff posted...

didn't smash fans boo during some major tournament because guilty gear top 8 was running late and they had to wait longer for smash to start?

and it was also smash fans who left immediately after smash top 8 is over so they don't support or care for any of the other games in the fgc

the first statement, yes and no, but they werent directing booing at guilty gear, it was something else and just unfortunately happened at the same time

yes

everyone knows that smashers dont register for other games and its well known many GG people had to watch grand finals from a phone because they couldnt go and sit down because even though seats were empty they belonged to smashers who werent even there
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I just want UNIEL because poverty fighting is best fighting.
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CheezyPuff posted...

didn't smash fans boo during some major tournament because guilty gear top 8 was running late and they had to wait longer for smash to start?

and it was also smash fans who left immediately after smash top 8 is over so they don't support or care for any of the other games in the fgc

Why would they care when literally no other fgc fans care about them either? I wouldnt give a shit either if i were them. Youve got the hardcore fgc people constantly shitting on your game so why would you support them?
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Dragonblade01 posted...

I just want UNIEL because poverty fighting is best fighting.

have you seen the UNIEL poverty setup compilation?
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PlsGodDontBanMe posted...

CheezyPuff posted...

didn't smash fans boo during some major tournament because guilty gear top 8 was running late and they had to wait longer for smash to start?

and it was also smash fans who left immediately after smash top 8 is over so they don't support or care for any of the other games in the fgc

Why would they care when literally no other fgc fans care about them either? I wouldnt give a shit either if i were them. Youve got the hardcore fgc people constantly shitting on your game so why would you support them?

i mean if we go by pure viewership and attendance numbers smash needs EVO more than EVO needs it
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Cookie Bag posted...

I mean, you talking about what you think makes the game better than the other isn't really much to go against a video of the game in motion showing how one of your points was wrong, that's why its not hard to ignore that wall of text, specially if your next statement is a sarcastic comment about the whole thing.

It's a cherry picked video that deconstructs a single hyperbolic sentence of my argument and ignores the rest of the post. It doesn't have to be addressed because people should know comebacks happen all the fucking time in fighting games.
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Smash doesnt need evo at all

They both work well for each other. Smash is extremely popular on EVO and evo gets boosts from the casual smash crowd and people who wouldnt care outside of smash might stick around.

Meanwhile smash gets more viewership and more people giving it a shot because its at the biggest fgc event.

It works well for both parties.
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ManSpread posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

I just want UNIEL because poverty fighting is best fighting.

have you seen the UNIEL poverty setup compilation?

I have not, but it sounds like a Byakuya compilation, lol
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Guesses = mindgames
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Cookie Bag posted...

I mean, you talking about what you think makes the game better than the other isn't really much to go against a video of the game in motion showing how one of your points was wrong, that's why its not hard to ignore that wall of text, specially if your next statement is a sarcastic comment about the whole thing.

It's a cherry picked video that deconstructs a single hyperbolic sentence of my argument and ignores the rest of the post. It doesn't have to be addressed because people should know comebacks happen all the fucking time in fighting games.

Your statement demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding regarding GG, hyperbole or not
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PlsGodDontBanMe posted...

people who wouldnt care outside of smash might stick around.

but they dont

https://i.redd.it/g9059gayrm7z.png

i guess there is SOME overlap with smash 4, but melee fans absolutely do not want to play other games
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Dragonblade01 posted...

ManSpread posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

I just want UNIEL because poverty fighting is best fighting.

have you seen the UNIEL poverty setup compilation?

I have not, but it sounds like a Byakuya compilation, lol

er wait, it was melty blood, my bad :(

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappa/comments/6h01zn/melty_blood_poverty_compilation/
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Dragonblade01 posted...

Your statement demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding regarding GG, hyperbole or not

The statement is an overly simplified jab at a mechanic that I hate. It is not meant as a philosophy by which one can become a GG champion. Had I just not fucking typed the sentence at all, I'd have demonstrated even less, but we wouldn't be having this fucking argument for some reason.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

Your statement demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding regarding GG, hyperbole or not

The statement is an overly simplified jab at a mechanic that I hate. It is not meant as a philosophy by which one can become a GG champion. Had I just not fucking typed the sentence at all, I'd have demonstrated even less, but we wouldn't be having this fucking argument for some reason.

Not fucking typing the sentence at all would have been better than saying something that makes you look like you have no clue what you're talking about.
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ManSpread posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

ManSpread posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

I just want UNIEL because poverty fighting is best fighting.

have you seen the UNIEL poverty setup compilation?

I have not, but it sounds like a Byakuya compilation, lol

er wait, it was melty blood, my bad :(

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappa/comments/6h01zn/melty_blood_poverty_compilation/

I was always too shit of a player to really get into MB. I just love UNIEL's core mechanics too goddamn much.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

Your statement demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding regarding GG, hyperbole or not

The statement is an overly simplified jab at a mechanic that I hate. It is not meant as a philosophy by which one can become a GG champion. Had I just not fucking typed the sentence at all, I'd have demonstrated even less, but we wouldn't be having this fucking argument for some reason.

I've already refuted to you numerous mechanics not present in Injustice yet oddly enough you ignore it. Meter management is a universal skill. The stage interactions are neat. Outside of that Injustice is fairly standard as far as fighting game mechanics go. It doesn't have mechanics like Danger Time (where both players receive and deal bonus damage due to a frame perfect trade), dead angle attacks, air dashing, roman cancels, character specific resource management independent from a universal meter, it has less (and simpler) inputs, less precise execution (it does have some 1f tho so points there).

It doesnt have just blocking, faultless defense, blitz shield, different types of combo breakers (clashes in Injustice iirc), hellfire (bonus damage at low health but also vulnerable to IK setups).

Like, I'm sorry dude, I get that you like Injustice and I respect that you defend your game (because your admiration and devotion to it mirrors mine of Guilty Gear), but a western fighter, especially one made by NRS, isn't going to be on nor exceed the mechanical level of an ASW game. They have a rep for being notoriously difficult FGs like SNK, which is why they aren't popular (doesn't help that Marn also tried to kill GG in America and nearly succeeded).

Just take the L on this one fam. You're not going to convince anyone after your dizzy statement.
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Dragonblade01 posted...

I was always to shit of a player to really get into MB. I just love UNIEL's core mechanics too goddamn much.

That's what I always say. If you ever want to have your soul destroyed, just play a few online games of MBAACC.
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ManSpread posted...

I've already refuted to you numerous mechanics not present in Injustice yet oddly enough you ignore it. Meter management is a universal skill. The stage interactions are neat. Outside of that Injustice is fairly standard as far as fighting game mechanics go. It doesn't have mechanics like Danger Time (where both players receive and deal bonus damage due to a frame perfect trade), dead angle attacks, air dashing, roman cancels, character specific resource management independent from a universal meter, it has less (and simpler) inputs, less precise execution (it does have some 1f tho so points there).

So, stop for a second.

ManSpread posted...

air dashing, roman cancels, character specific resource management independent from a universal meter

It literally has all of these. Not some of them. All of them. The names are different in some cases. For eample, Roman Cancels are called Bounce Cancels in Injustice 2. Each character has 2 of them. Each one can also be canceled into a dash. Here is an example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3kNjqIshf0

ManSpread posted...

it has less (and simpler) inputs,

Sure, I'll give you this. The actual commands are fewer in number and each of them is easier to perform--but this isn't, by itself, a good thing. Hold inputs, particularly on a lot of older fighting games always seemed like a bad mechanic for balance reasons because the commands are difficult to pull off, not because the input itself is difficult, but because it's so insanely predictable that you know it's coming 2 seconds ahead of time.

ManSpread posted...

less precise execution (it does have some 1f tho so points there).

A 3-5 hit combo? No. Not precise. Chaining a combo together through special / bounce cancels requires insane amounts of precision. While the moves naturally flow into each other, with every hit is a gravity increase that makes further hits in a combo extremely hard to pull off. A move that normally could be hit over 3f could turn into a 1f if you did it towards the end of the combo, and other moves that are naturally 1f can sometimes become impossible to land at certain stages in the combo. Knowing what those are / understanding your character is crucial to actually pulling off lengthy combos.

ManSpread posted...

It doesn't have mechanics like Danger Time, dead angle attacks

Sure, it doesn't have these, but these are not technically complex mechanics. This is just "the game"

But yes, to your credit, I deliberately underplayed the technicality of GG, however, I still feel I am correct when I say Injustice 2 is more technically complex. There is a lot more you can do in Injustice 2 that I didn't touch on because they're insanely situational. (like, say, dizzy in GG)
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Bounce cancels and roman cancels are not remotely the same at all.

What character specific resource management does Injustice 2 have (for example, Johnny has coins he has to manage, Sin Kiske has a food meter he has to fill up, etc)?

A 3-5 hit combo? No. Not precise. Chaining a combo together through special / bounce cancels requires insane amounts of precision. While the moves naturally flow into each other, with every hit is a gravity increase that makes further hits in a combo extremely hard to pull off. A move that normally could be hit over 3f could turn into a 1f if you did it towards the end of the combo, and other moves that are naturally 1f can sometimes become impossible to land at certain stages in the combo. Knowing what those are / understanding your character is crucial to actually pulling off lengthy combos.

A universal FG mechanic.

Sure, it doesn't have these, but these are not technically complex mechanics. This is just "the game"

Danger Time, sure. Dead Angles can be used as bait and have option selects built into them with YRC. Its not something that you just do.
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ManSpread posted...

MwarriorHiei posted...

dont forget money match vs cash battle and mirror vs ditto.

lmfao are cash battle and dizzo actual terms?

also i totally forgot that smash ripped off the whole five gods concept from street fighter

And they don't even know who Tokido is

ManSpread posted...

Bounce cancels and roman cancels are not remotely the same at all.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here but the purpose of roman cancels is to immediately stop the recovery frames of an attack so that you can land another one, right?

Because that's what a bounce cancel is.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

ManSpread posted...

Bounce cancels and roman cancels are not remotely the same at all.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here but the purpose of roman cancels is to immediately stop the recovery frames of an attack so that you can land another one, right?

Because that's what a bounce cancel is.

Yellow Roman Cancels allow you to make unsafe shit safe (like for example if you do a command throw, it misses, you can YRC and airdash away to avoid punishment or say if you knock me down and bait my wakeup attack I can YRC out of it and make it safe. Its fucking stupid if I'm going to be 100% honest and shouldnt be in the game, but it is).

Red Roman Cancels are closer to bounce cancels where you use them to extend combos. I probably should have specified that in my earlier post.
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ManSpread posted...

What character specific resource management does Injustice 2 have (for example, Johnny has coins he has to manage, Sin Kiske has a food meter he has to fill up, etc)?

All the characters have a unique power that is accessed by button 4 (B on Xbox / O on PS4). For example, Black Canary's scream can be held in for a long time and let out all at once for a giant scream that totally fucks the opponent, or she can let out smaller, but more frequent screams, you can see the current status / level of scream at the bottom. Green Arrow has to equip different types of arrows before they can be fired. The arrows are of a limited resource and when he runs out he has to get more. Deadshot has a similar mechanic except he's limited by time instead of number of arrows.

ManSpread posted...

A universal FG mechanic.

It's actually not universal. This is not a thing in Killer Instinct, for example. A combo can go on for as long as you're within the allotted combo meter. No matter how far along in the combo you are, the gravity remains the same. They use a different method to prevent unending combos.

Anyway, it appears you're warned and I have work in the morning, so, see ya later.
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