Current Events > Finished hollow knight, gotta say I was pretty disappointed

(+) Yeah! (+)

(note: in the time between me finishing the game and me making this topic, I learned from a friend I was talking to about it that there's apparently a true ending to the game and I got the normal one and thus missed a ton of the game's content. Maybe that would make me like it more. I dunno. But when the game itself doesn't really guide you towards it at all and this ending seems endingish enough I think it's still valid to find faults in only this part)

To start with the simplest, most obvious complaint: Difficulty level is super low. Thanks to the ease/efficiency of healing when hitting enemies the only places you'll die really are boss fights before you learn patterns (since all the bosses are extremely formulaic) or rooms with mostly traps and no enemies so you can't heal. Damage balancing is kinda off, too... final boss deals the same amount of damage per hit as the very first weakest enemy in the game.

The game mostly being braindead easy in terms of not dying is good though, since the ghost mechanic where you have to go retrieve your cash is awful for a game like this. The game is based entirely around exploration and discovering new areas so I don't know why they ever thought it would be a good idea to essentially force you back to the same place every time you die. Feels more like they just wanted to copy dark souls because dark souls is hip and cool rather than actually thinking about what it meant for the game itself.

Speaking of exploring, that's the game's strongest point. It's directionless and you explore. Maybe too directionless. I spent most of the game just wandering around like an idiot finding new places until (a bit of game structure spoilers) I found the dream nail, at which point I just went straight to all 3 dreamers and killed them since I'd already had everything explored. I guess it's nice if you just like wandering around with no tangible reward, but the big issue is that almost all the time, your reward for exploring a new area is one of:

1) Another new area (probably with nothing useful in it, either)
2) A key item of ambiguous usage that appears totally useless at first glance
3) A charm you'll never equip since you already have way more charms than slots

None of which feel very nice to find after putting in effort exploring a new place. The number of actually useful finds is extremely low; fireball spell, dash, wall cling, superdash, dream nail. That's it. Heart pieces are useful sure but only once you get 4 and considering how few and far between they are, mixed in with all the other garbage rewards, they don't feel very nice to find either. Not that you need them anyway,

The aesthetic is nice, I will admit. I wish they didn't put so much environmental decoration in the foreground though since there are a few areas where it's a pain to see yourself/enemies because of it. I also like how you can dash around while bouncing on enemies, when you get movement going well in this game it feels really, really good.


Overall I really don't understand how I can be seeing people call this game of the year. Well, I guess I haven't played much else that released this year so it's possible every other game is even worse but in that case the gaming business is in pretty dire straights since I can think of many similar games that did this game but better from 10+ years ago :/

My final clear stats were 44% in just over 12 hours. I can't say I feel particularly compelled to hunt down the rest of the game's useless collectibles though
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was my title not clickbaity enough?

let's pretend it was actually "hollow knight is (worst)GOTY for sure"
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kirbymuncher posted...

was my title not clickbaity enough?

Nah, it was the endless American-Mexican Wall of text you put there.

kirbymuncher posted...

Feels more like they just wanted to copy dark souls because dark souls is hip and cool rather than actually thinking about what it meant for the game itself.

this is one of my video game pet peeves, i think people add in dark souls mechanics to their games because dark souls is the newest "Real Gamer's Game" kind of franchise without thinking of WHY that mechanic is implemented
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I'd say the difficulty and death system mirror my complaints. However, I still thought it was a fantastic game
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The Hollow Knight isn't the final boss. Fight the real final boss (the Radiance) and then come back.
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It's a top tier Metroidvania along with Super Metroid, SotN, and Ori, but yeah I agree it's not really GotY worthy and isn't flawless like many hype it to be. Solid 9/10 game still.
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I only put 30 minutes into it but I still don't feel like playing it, I will have to try though but good stuff to know

I feel like indie games generally fall on so many of the same elements
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drunkmuggle posted...

I feel like indie games generally fall on so many of the same elements

agreed 100%, it's why i cant play most of them
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@hollow_shrine they talking shit about you bro
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drunkmuggle posted...

I only put 30 minutes into it but I still don't feel like playing it, I will have to try though but good stuff to know

I feel like indie games generally fall on so many of the same elements

And AAA games don't? The entire AAA industry is coalescing into a single genre.
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CircleOfManias posted...

drunkmuggle posted...

I only put 30 minutes into it but I still don't feel like playing it, I will have to try though but good stuff to know

I feel like indie games generally fall on so many of the same elements

And AAA games don't? The entire AAA industry is coalescing into a single genre.

it's why I rarely get AAA games these days as well
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Sorry you didn't enjoy it that much. Personally, I was driven by the lore and mystery surrounding the world. If you pay close attention to visual cues in the environment and hit things with your dream nail to reveal additional info, the game has a subtle way of leading you deeper into its depths, towards the true boss/ending. It sounds like you did a thorough job of exploring the space of the world, but less so the story. That's not a criticism of the way you play-- perhaps it's the game's fault that the hints are too cryptic-- but it's a shame you missed out on it because I found it to be one of the more enjoyable aspects of the game.

Anyway... if you continue playing towards the second ending, I think you'll find that the challenge picks up quite a bit.
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CircleOfManias posted...

drunkmuggle posted...

I only put 30 minutes into it but I still don't feel like playing it, I will have to try though but good stuff to know

I feel like indie games generally fall on so many of the same elements

And AAA games don't? The entire AAA industry is coalescing into a single genre.

i can count the number of truly great AAA games this gen on one hand, this is the worst the industry has ever been IMO
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CircleOfManias posted...

The Hollow Knight isn't the final boss. Fight the real final boss and then come back.

I figured that's part of it but I really don't feel like it. I've had enough wandering around aimlessly lost for a long time I think. I heard it takes like 2000+ essence and I only have 600-700 with no idea where to get any more. Probably a result of me missing so many areas in the game lol. I heard there was a double jump and I never even found it ?_?

voldothegr8 posted...

It's a top tier Metroidvania along with Super Metroid, SotN, and Ori, but yeah I agree it's not really GotY worthy and isn't flawless like many hype it to be. Solid 9/10 game still.

I'd give it like a 6/10 and that's being slightly generous. I don't see how you can bring up something like super metroid alongside it and not realize how much better super metroid did so many parts of it lol

drunkmuggle posted...

I only put 30 minutes into it but I still don't feel like playing it, I will have to try though but good stuff to know

I think you should definitely try it because whether I like it or not it's essentially the current public face of metroidvanias
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Polycosm posted...

Sorry you didn't enjoy it that much. Personally, I was driven by the lore and mystery surrounding the world. If you pay close attention to visual cues in the environment and hit things with your dream nail to reveal additional info, the game has a subtle way of leading you deeper into its depths, towards the true boss/ending.

hmm

I guess if this is one of the big draws of the game I shouldn't be too surprised I feel as let down as I do; the somewhat recent trend of substituting lore for story is one of my least favourite things in games <_<

my (probably extremely spotty and also just flat out wrong) understanding of the lore and story:

- some time in the past there was a massive underground kingdom of bugs
- some sort of disease/infestation spread throughout the kingdom
- one guy sealed it all inside him (how?? why?? why him??)
- the kingdom's 3 leaders went into stasis(???) to seal that guy away
- kingdom was protected but gradually fell into disrepair over time
- you find the kingdom and start exploring it for no real reason
- you get the dream nail and go around breaking the seals the dreamers made (I kinda get the feeling you were tricked into this, but again, why??)
- you defeat the hollow knight, all the stuff in him gets transferred into you and now you end up locked in there forever


most of these are just wild guesses lol
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kirbymuncher posted...

I'd give it like a 6/10 and that's being slightly generous. I don't see how you can bring up something like super metroid alongside it and not realize how much better super metroid did so many parts of it lol

Because it's not the same game as any I listed but still a damn good title in the genre. IMO

SM>SotN>Ori>HK

but all are great in their own right.
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>Skips half the game
>Skips the HARD half of the game
>Complains about difficulty

I expected better of you, Kirby. Am disappoint
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kirbymuncher posted...

Polycosm posted...

Sorry you didn't enjoy it that much. Personally, I was driven by the lore and mystery surrounding the world. If you pay close attention to visual cues in the environment and hit things with your dream nail to reveal additional info, the game has a subtle way of leading you deeper into its depths, towards the true boss/ending.

hmm

I guess if this is one of the big draws of the game I shouldn't be too surprised I feel as let down as I do; the somewhat recent trend of substituting lore for story is one of my least favourite things in games <_<

my (probably extremely spotty and also just flat out wrong) understanding of the lore and story:

- some time in the past there was a massive underground kingdom of bugs
- some sort of disease/infestation spread throughout the kingdom
- one guy sealed it all inside him (how?? why?? why him??)
- the kingdom's 3 leaders went into stasis(???) to seal that guy away
- kingdom was protected but gradually fell into disrepair over time
- you find the kingdom and start exploring it for no real reason
- you get the dream nail and go around breaking the seals the dreamers made (I kinda get the feeling you were tricked into this, but again, why??)
- you defeat the hollow knight, all the stuff in him gets transferred into you and now you end up locked in there forever


most of these are just wild guesses lol

Real talk for a sec here, if you want I can lay the game's lore out for you if you want to understand what's going on better.
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fire_bolt posted...

Real talk for a sec here, if you want I can lay the game's lore out for you if you want to understand what's going on better.

Sure, if it's not too much of a bother <_<

fire_bolt posted...

>Skips half the game
>Skips the HARD half of the game
>Complains about difficulty

maybe if they didn't want their game to get judged on only the first half they shouldn't have made the second half so obtusely hidden. Or I guess a better solution would have been not to put credits at the part where I got to. I never would have realized there even was another ending to the game until I talked to people about it
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kirbymuncher posted...

fire_bolt posted...

Real talk for a sec here, if you want I can lay the game's lore out for you if you want to understand what's going on better.

Sure, if it's not too much of a bother <_<

fire_bolt posted...

>Skips half the game
>Skips the HARD half of the game
>Complains about difficulty

maybe if they didn't want their game to get judged on only the first half they shouldn't have made the second half so obtusely hidden. Or I guess a better solution would have been not to put credits at the part where I got to. I never would have realized there even was another ending to the game until I talked to people about it

For some reason I feel like there WAS a pretty obvious hint that there is another ending, but I don't remember what it is right now. Anyway, big ol' spoiler tags



In the distant past, there was a land of bugs, overseen by their God-Bug "The Radiance", a sun-like Moth. Nothing happened for a long time except the Dreamer clan of bugs venerated The Radiance. Eventually a great white Wyrm from what I can tell, a massive dragonfly) landed near the kingdom and essentially shed it's huge Wyrm body to become something closer to a normal bug. This is the Pale King.

The Pale King moved to the center of the kingdom, away from his cast off shell at World's Edge, and bugs who came near him grew more intelligent. He led essentially a cultural revolution that accomplished two things. The first was the bug equivalent of the Industrial Revolution. The second was causing almost all of the bugs to reject The Radiance. Becoming forgotten, The Radiance's power weakened until only the Dreamer clan could still interact with it.

Not every clan accepted the Pale King. The Mantis clan kept their own leaders and lives, standing guard protecting the main kingdom from the hyper aggressive Hollow Nest bugs. The Weaver clan rejected both Pale King and Radiance, living alone beyond Hollow Nest. The Dream Clan continued to venerate the Radiance.

The Pale King was beyond brilliant and worked on many projects to expand his power. He led the development of Soul power, allowing bugs to use magic. He also started to do research on The Abyss, seeking to learn what lied beyond that world.

Over time, the kingdom led by the Pale King took over more and more land. The Radiance grew weaker and weaker. In a last ditch effort to reclaim its lost power, The Radiance began to mind control bugs. Their lesser bodies not meant to contain such power, they became infected and the infection began to spread. The Pale King tried hard to find a way to stop the spread of infection and simply couldn't, until one day a Dreamer came to him. Their clan knew a way to contain the infection. They turned their backs on The Radiance and sided with the Pale King, teaching him how to make Vessels. With that knowledge, the king was eventually able to create a Vessel strong enough to contain the Radiance and locked it away.

All was good for awhile and nothing of significance happened except that the King and his kingdom grew more advanced and powerful. The King delved deeper and deeper into Vessal and Abyssal research, binding Abyss Shadows to Vessels. Eventually, the Vessel containing the Radiance cracked and the infection began to spread again.


More in next post
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The Pale King became VERY fearful, because the Radiance and the infection were the only thing that could harm him. Every bug infected added to The Radiance's power. He threw everything he had into finding another way to seal the Radiance and eventually did. He enlisted the help of three powerful bugs to help him hopefully seal it away forever. Two were his allies already, his guardian Monomon and his research assistant Lurien. The third was the leader of the renegade Weaver clan, considered the strongest bug in the land. The Pale King approached her with an offer. If she would agree to become a Watcher, he would create her a daughter. This daughter was Hornet, the "gendered child", the only vessel to have a personality. Herrah did not get to spend much time with her daughter before taking up her duties as a watcher.

The King created an more perfect Vessel this time, the Hollow Knight, to contain the Radiance and sealed it inside The Black Egg. The Watchers used their power to seal the egg shut forever, trapping the Hollow Knight/Radiance hybrid.

Back to life as normal for awhile, until eventually the Radiance was able to weaken even this more perfect seal. When the infection began to spread again, the Pale King became even more fearful, to the point where he and his entire palace VANISHED. No one knows where they went, but the Pale King is not dead, just in hiding.

This is where the game begins. You play as the last Vessel the king made to try to seal the Radiance. As such, you are imbued with a bit of his power and spirit. Your body is a vessel and your spirit is a Shadow bound to that vessel. You are driven to stop the Radiance and stop the infection. In order to do so, you must kill the Watchers and break the Seal on the Black Egg. However, by the time you get to them the Watchers seem to understand the problem and are ready to die so that you can do your job. They know if the Radiance gets free then all of bug kind will revert to mindless creatures capable of nothing more than sun worship.

On the bad ending, you simply destroy and replace the Hollow Knight, but now without Watchers to seal you away. Your body will eventually become a house for the Radiance, and the cycle will go on except now there is no other vessels since the Pale King fled. This will be the LAST iteration of the cycle, and eventually the Radiance will win.

On the good ending, you strengthen the Dream Nail enough to enter the Hollow Knight's mind (with Hornet's help, bless your gendered sibling). Inside, you confront the Radiance directly and if you're skilled enough you KILL it, ending the cycle forever.



When the Hornet DLC drops, hopefully we'll get a more fleshed out backstory on things, but that's the general gist of it. I didn't really cover things like the Pale King's alliance with the White Lady, the 5 Great Knights, etc. There's A LOT more lore out there.
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Oh, also the various clans in the game

Kingdom Clan: The bugs who venerated the Pale King. Their center was the City Of Tears, where the King had his palace. They were mostly beetles and the like.

Mantis Clan: A tribe of warrior bugs who rejected the King's authority and lived on the outskirts of the wild. They see themselves as guardians of bug kind, standing between The Abyss in Deep Nest and the rest of the kingdom.

Dreamer Clan: A clan of moths who were long closer to The Radiance than any other clan due to their ability to fly. They built shrines high atop Crystal Peak.

Weaver Clan: A clan of mostly spiders who chose to live alone in the deepest, darkest part of Hallownest. Why? Hoping to find out in the Hornet DLC.

Bee Clan: A clan of bees who live in a massive hive in Kingdom's Edge. They chose to seal themselves away from the others rather than being involved in all the fighting.
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I mean...the entire game is almost non-linear and emphasizes exploration and discovering things for yourself. It isn't meant to guide you or point you in the direction of the best ending. If you didn't do the one thing the game has let you do since the beginning...well, that's pretty much on you, IMO. >.>

To each their own, in any case. I'm ~25 hours or so, just got the Dream Nail, have 2 vessels, 8 hearts, 2 weapon upgrades, several ability upgrades, etc., and I'm still having a blast. It just might not be for you. Chalk it up to a learning experience and move on to the next game.
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sylverlolol posted...

I mean...the entire game is almost non-linear and emphasizes exploration and discovering things for yourself. It isn't meant to guide you or point you in the direction of the best ending. If you didn't do the one thing the game has let you do since the beginning...well, that's pretty much on you, IMO. >.>

To each their own, in any case. I'm ~25 hours or so, just got the Dream Nail, have 2 vessels, 8 hearts, 2 weapon upgrades, several ability upgrades, etc., and I'm still having a blast. It just might not be for you. Chalk it up to a learning experience and move on to the next game.

Keep me posted, Syl. I'm interested to hear more of your reactions and stuff. I'm glad you seem to be enjoying it ^_^
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sylverlolol posted...

I mean...the entire game is almost non-linear and emphasizes exploration and discovering things for yourself.

The game emphasizes having a lot of places to explore, but I don't feel like it actually emphasizes exploration. The two are different things and to emphasize exploration you need to have useful tangible rewards provided for exploring which I don't feel this game adequately provides. Lore is not a reward for completing a gameplay challenge; gameplay challenges should provide gameplay rewards (and maybe lore too I suppose but that's secondary)


fire_bolt posted...

Anyway, big ol' spoiler tags

Interesting. Also amazing how much of that I had not even the slightest hint existed lol

Thanks for that. It's kinda cool but I'm still not a super big fan of games where all the "plot" happens before the game actually starts because of what it means in terms of structure and delivery
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