Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Archer, Cloud and Terra vs. Kuja, Alice, Sora and Dracula

(+) Yeah! (+)

Archer, Cloud and Terra have challenged Kuja, Alice, Sora and Dracula to a fight! Location of the fight: Darkside - Though the massive Heartless that gives this place its name is not there, its work is evident. Sora's Destiny Islands have been reduced to this small world, strewn with the wreckage and remains of what he used to call home. Attackers will start where Darkside begins its boss fight in KH1, and defenders will start at Sora's starting point.. Which side will win?

Guidelines

- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of a pre-selected plan of battle.
- "Broken" refers to a lot of things, including insta-death, auto-effects, a variety of status effects (e.g., Imp, Silence, Stop, *not* Poison), and revival. Unless stated otherwise, nobody has them, though do use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

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- Bold your votes (using bold HTML tags).
- You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
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- If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
- This match will end in 24 hours.
- The following conventions are in use for match topics: www.gamefaqs.com/boards/570224-mercs/75290480/878106427


Cloud Strife is as seen in Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children, with access to the First Tsurugi and any abilities/skills granted by that equipment. He additionally has access to all magic (green) FF7 materia and his wing from Kingdom Hearts.

Terra is as she appears in Dissidia and at the end of FF6A, equipped with full Genji armour, Apocalypse, a Hero Ring, and a Gold Hairpin. She has all her natural magic, as well as those gained from Unicorn and Bahamut, including Raise. She does not, however, have Arise, Teleport, Break, Graviga, or Meltdown. She can enter Trance form at any time for 30 seconds (which also grants her access to EX mode), although it will go on cooldown for 2 minutes upon ending.

Archer is as seen in Fate/Stay Night's Unlimited Blade Works route. He may project Kanshou and Bakuya, Caladbolg, and his bow, as well as any other weapon seen in this fight, but may not project anything else. He may not use his Reality Marble, nor turn incorporeal and may be affected by conventional weapons despite his status as a servant.
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~VS~

Alice is as she appears in Alice: Madness Returns wearing the Checkmate dress and equipped with the Vorpal Cleaver, Octo-grinder, Knightmare, Catnip Cannon, Umbrella and Clockwork Bomb, all fully upgraded. She also has the Ice Wand, Jabberwock's Eye Staff and Blunderbuss from American McGee's Alice, with her will regenerating over time. When near death she will enter Hysteria mode for 20 seconds, but only once.

Sora is as he appears in Kingdom Hearts 2 FM+ with his best non-broken equipment, and is able to use his Valor, Wisdom, Limit, and Master forms, though they aren't infinite, use the same gauge (starting with and limited to 5), and won't eat up an ally. He doesn't have Magnet, summons, limits (except in Limit form), any reaction commands, or invincibility.

Dracula appears as he does in Chapter 6 of Harmony of Despair, Hard Mode. He has access to all of his attacks, though his seduction attack can't brainwash females, and can freely transform between all three of his forms. Additionally, he has all of his attacks from Order of Ecclesia, except for that game's version of Demonic Megiddo.

Kuja is as seen in Final Fantasy IX under the effects of Trance, with all of his spells and abilities shown within, though he may not use Ultima. Additionally, he has access to all of his Brave/HP attacks from Dissidia, though the actual Brave/HP mechanics do not apply.

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I am the bone of my soloing...FIGHT!
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@Tirofog
@DeathChicken

The floor is yours.
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DC's argument:

Straight forward slugfest. Everyone starts in short range, but my guys are better. Sora > Cloud, Kuja > Archer (Archer's magic defense is notoriously crap), Dracula > Terra. Throw in Alice and her half minute of invincibility there wherever you'd like (probably to distract Archer while Kuja nukes him. She doesn't have to worry about friendly fire while in Invincible Banshee Mode) and this gets lopsided.
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does Terra have Hastega? I figure Terra/Cloud have time for one buff each, but Cloud's buffs suck because they're single-target only.
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Nope. Celes gets it naturally, Terra does not.
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Also really doubt anyone is buffing here. It's...very short range territory, given the description.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NGQ4d4POAc&t=0m21s
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Terra doesn't really have utility at all. Just healing and nuking. Protect and Shell from Unicorn are all she has for buffs.

On the other hand I don't really see why Archer doesn't just kill everyone even without Haste from Cloud (though he could just open with single target haste too). If the arena were a bit smaller or a bit more enclosed yeah but he's got enough room to move around and mulch everyone here.
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Given the starting locations, I give him about two seconds before Alice is on him. Then he kills her, then he finds he *can't* kill her for whatever reason, and then Kuja kills him. In that order.

All that has to happen here is for Kuja to nail him and I think he's toast.
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I am not sure I'd give any chance for safe buffing considering it's only six steps separating Sora from Darkside in game(yes i counted). This is an EXTREMELY small ground map.

Archer

lol
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Kuja > Archer (Archer's magic defense is notoriously crap),

Yeah, but see.
Archer > Caster and Caster's a much better combatant than Kuja.

Eh DC's youtube really says it all

Yeah it's small. No it's not small enough that dudes are instantly on each other before one low level spell can be cast

Although frankly I'm not sure if Cloud wants to or even needs to go for Haste here. Just fighting like the Sora caliber melee he is is probably the best course of action as I feel like the only way Archer possibly loses is if he gets overwhelmed with a bunch of combatants at once-- but Cloud and Terra don't seem terribly outclassed here so it seems unlikely that'd happen unless they do something stupid.
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My thinking is that if Kuja can nuke for a bit Archer dies

On the other hand though, this is what happened last time archer faced a caster

https://youtu.be/mBBKLYCvF6o?t=304

So yeah, I mean IDK

If Archer gets three seconds to shoot, rip kuja

Question is, can anybody check him that long?
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EveAlany posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Kuja > Archer (Archer's magic defense is notoriously crap),

Yeah, but see.
Archer > Caster and Caster's a much better combatant than Kuja.

Also a one on one fight with different circumstances. Caster began with enough distance between them that Archer basically just shot her to death while she tried and failed to block it. He also didn't have any number of people like two feet away from him to eat up his attention.

For whatever the result of an Archer vs Kuja battle, Archer vs Kuja and Alice is *much* worse for him just because he straight up can't hurt her for 20 seconds. I visualize it irritating the crap out of him long enough to get spell bombed.
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Archer also has that scene in Fate route where he runs through an aerial bombardment from Caster while carrying and bickering with Shirou-- I don't think he's trivial to tag with magic.
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Lopen posted...

Archer also has that scene in Fate route where he runs through an aerial bombardment from Caster while carrying and bickering with Shirou-- I don't think he's trivial to tag with magic.

the ubw route actually, it's in the video kanz posted
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DeathChicken posted...

Caster began with enough distance between them that Archer basically just shot her to death while she tried and failed to block it.

They actually started within melee range. It's just that unlike Kuja Caster has immense regenerative powers, teleportation and illusions.

DeathChicken posted...

For whatever the result of an Archer vs Kuja battle, Archer vs Kuja and Alice is *much* worse for him just because he straight up can't hurt her for 20 seconds.

See, there's a good example of what would happen to Alice here in the actual F/SN series.
https://youtu.be/KfiPJ44-JXM?t=1m18s

Archer doesn't need to kill Alice, he's got enough physical strength, skill and practical foresight he can basically just kick her off of the platforms without any issue.

KommunistKoala posted...

Lopen posted...

Archer also has that scene in Fate route where he runs through an aerial bombardment from Caster while carrying and bickering with Shirou-- I don't think he's trivial to tag with magic.

the ubw route actually, it's in the video kanz posted

Oh. Thought that was a different scene as it does not have nearly as much running around and bickering as the VN had. Also was sure that was in Fate but now that I think about it I don't think Caster is actually seen at the Temple in Fate Route thanks to HIGHER GROUND keeping fools out so it makes sense it'd be in UBW.
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I'm not even arguing that Alice beats him (that's admittedly never gonna happen), I'm arguing that he kills her dead, gets distracted by the fact she's suddenly no-selling, and that's really all it takes for Kuja to put out his lights. If he gets held off at all long enough for Kuja to nuke, he is dead.
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It's kinda like how you'd get distracted by an ant still moving around when you step on it while going to go get the morning paper.
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DeathChicken posted...

I'm not even arguing that Alice beats him (that's admittedly never gonna happen), I'm arguing that he kills her dead, gets distracted by the fact she's suddenly no-selling, and that's really all it takes for Kuja to put out his lights. If he gets held off at all long enough for Kuja to nuke, he is dead.

See though, False Eye of the Mind is specifically made to read these kinds of traps and respond in kind. It's the reason why he can fight someone like Berserker as more than an equal, someone who outstats him by 100% in strength, speed, agility, size, etc without using his Reality Marble.

This sort of plan is not only one he'd see coming, but one he'd easily counter.

*True Eye of the Mind

Otherwise that's correct tho
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i don't know why he wouldn't just hit Kuja with a rocket buster sword if he was ever in trouble. hell, Archer busting out Omnislash is something he could do if he ever felt he was in trouble.

and it's not like fighting things that don't die is something he's new to or something to be surprised with much. i mean Berserker was a thing too. either way, his history is basically one where surprising him is pretty unlikely.
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I'm also thinking it's quite likely given the distance that he gets nailed by Drac in here too, probably while Drac is killing Terra or whoever. Throwing fire every whichway is kind of what he does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPfeYVaNuRg

Frankly Archer is mean, but Archer is overwhelmed here by spells from every direction and a pesky "ant" who just won't die.
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Worth noting that Alice's hysteria mode only pops if she ends up near death. If she dies flat out it won't trigger I don't think.
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Incidentally Cloud also flies. So that's something too.

That's lovely, literally everyone on my team flies besides Alice, so...
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Sora doesn't fly (though with the level of jumps he can pull off it doesn't matter). I get what you're saying though - I feel like it's not super meaningful here.
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it's meaningful only with regards to speed.
which is honestly what's the most likely thing to happen, Archer and AC Cloud blitz and then good luck.
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I think if that happens we get my proposed scenario. Sora beats Cloud, Dracula throws his AoE stuff and takes out Terra, Archer laughs off Alice, Alice comes back, Kuja nukes the shit out of Archer while he's probably also being hit by Drac's AoE stuff.

Just a lot of mayhem to go around, really. Bad part of it for their side is that a good deal of it will flatten Archer if it hits him, since he does *not* want to be tanking magic.
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DeathChicken posted...

Sora beats Cloud

Even in his own game Sora can't defeat Cloud. They always tie.

Yeah, Sora/Cloud seems like a pretty even matchup, discounting healing (which both have anyway) and buffs.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Oa6kfA6d8&t=1m48s

No, no they didn't. That's a solid "One guy got whupped and it wasn't Sora."
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DeathChicken posted...

No, no they didn't. That's a solid "One guy got whupped and it wasn't Sora."

That's a 1vs3 and he isn't even solidly beaten.

AC Cloud is kind of a lot better than what KH Cloud shows, especially early game KH Cloud.
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I just think it's frankly disingenuous as fuck to try and claim a tie in a fight where one dude was out on one knee and the other was fine.
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The guy who links a clip of early game KH Cloud, who at endgame KH2 is much stronger than the Cloud in the clip, and that Cloud even still is a weaker version of AC Cloud (who, if we're keeping score, is the one in the write-up), getting beat in a 3v1 about 1 hour into the game, is talking about disingenuous arguments
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Also I see we're playing the "But that version wasn't as good as the current version!" game. To which I'll point out that was Kingdom Hearts 1 Sora. This version is after he gets his great big upgrade in KH2, access to every form besides Final, etc.

I'll just post the obvious vid too, of where he beats Cloud, Squall, Yuffie and Tifa on his own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nafdmavii2k
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Linking that one is a ton more relevant yes, considering that's way the hell closer to both Sora and Cloud's levels in the write-up.

Still mostly irrelevant though considering it's AC Cloud and not KH Cloud. (That and how canon that fight even is is kinda debatable to begin with)
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DeathChicken posted...

I'll just post the obvious vid too, of where he beats Cloud, Squall, Yuffie and Tifa on his own.

In an entirely game-play optional content plotless sequence? That's like saying saying that because Cloud, Tifa and Barret beats Omega weapon that he's stronger than it.

AC Cloud doesn't really seem very impressive to me, relatively speaking. He's basically a Dissidia character and Sora would beat those
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Flatly? We have an entire game devoted to pointing out how Sora is above the likes of Squall, Cloud, and insert whatever other FF character you'd like in a fight, to the point where he holds his own with Sephiroth in a fight (doesn't beat him, but holds his own). This game also goes out of its way to point out he was in a fight with Hercules and beat him, while Hercules enthusiastically declares that he wasn't holding back. Sora is insanely good.

Now I get why my direct Mercs opponent Lopen would try and dehype my guy (hi Lopey), but I wonder about this other weird dehype.
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I'm not really dehyping Sora as much as pointing out the idiocy in your dehype of Cloud. I think they're about equal here.
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Also calling me "your mercs opponent" is uh, strange to say the least. I would be very shocked if I ever had a match with you again.
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Not dehyping Cloud (nowhere in any of my arguments have I gone 'Cloud sucks!'). I am vehemently saying that Sora is better, since...well, we have entire games devoted to showing that he is, to the point where he's kind of a Mary Sue. Flat.
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I find it strange that no one ever points out Cloud getting shot point blank in the face during AC and only gets a small cut out of it. Reminds me a lot of that Dante feat, actually.

I mean if you wanna say Sora is better, sure, it's worth humoring

Just that uh, citing videos from an hour into the first game that features neither the Cloud in this write-up, nor Cloud or Sora at anywhere near their peak levels within KH as evidence, is really dumb
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Hey, it's the first and most obvious thing when it comes to demonstrations of Sora over Cloud. The fact the trend proceeds to amp up as the series goes on, to the point where Sora is eventually soloing Cloud and all of his pals, is gravy.
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In kh2 we're basically shown that the Cloud and Sephiroth you face aren't them at full power, them clashing is when we see that.

Cloud in AC is beyond that level. Or to phrase a different way, Sora can only hold his own against a Sephiroth this Cloud should be able to beat handily.
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