Board 8 > Game of Thrones Season 7 - The lone wolf dies... (SPOILERS)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Dany is cool, and good
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I'm not a huge Dany fan but I don't really get where the "She always wins" narrative comes from. She spent 6 seasons on another continent mostly losing. She took Meereen but then spent like two seasons jobbing to the Sons of the Harpy, making bad decisions, and generally failing to make the changes she wants to make. Even her big wins like stealing the Unsullied fit the general blueprint of the rest of the series, basically that she won because she cheated (and has dragons). It would kind of be like saying Walder Frey always wins because he beat Robb Stark. This is a series that prides itself on realism and isn't afraid to kill off major characters tp maintain that. Ned is the hero, but he died because he's dumb. Unless I'm forgetting something there's not really an instance where Dany triumphed in a situation she realistically should not have, and now that she has giant dragons very few hypothetical situations exist.

As for her winning at the end and it being predictable...we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I actually don't expect the series to end that way, but I don't see a problem with it if it does. GRRM likes to avoid cliches, but it's not like we're seriously headed for King Littlefinger or something. The story still has it's main heroes.
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It's not 'she always wins' it's 'she learns nothing.'
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Well maybe that's the character flaw that's foreshadowing her eventual loss.

Just seems dumb to praise a show for being realistic at the expense of major fan favorites (Ned dies, Robb dies, Oberyn dies, Stannis dies, Jorah gets friendzoned) and criticize it for having the overwhelming favorite succeed.
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JetJaguar posted...

This is a series that prides itself on realism

what
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I don't think it's dumb to want a character to succeed on their own merit instead of being bailed out by plot convenience at every turn.

Instead she does the same wrong things expecting new better results and then gets bailed out. That's not fun or endearing, it's just frustrating.
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JetJaguar posted...

This is a series that prides itself on realism and isn't afraid to kill off major characters tp maintain that.

Arya totally only made it out of Braavos thanks to plot armor.
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To be fair Arya is the one character GRRM says he kind of cheats with because he promised somebody he wouldn't kill her off.
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I think it's a bit early to credit/blame GRRM for Arya's show Braavos arc. As far as we know that's show exclusive still.

If it turns out it goes the same way in the books, then sure.
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FFDragon posted...

I don't think it's dumb to want a character to succeed on their own merit instead of being bailed out by plot convenience at every turn.

Instead she does the same wrong things expecting new better results and then gets bailed out. That's not fun or endearing, it's just frustrating.

But what if we're supposed to see it as Dany succeeding in spite of herself because she has dragons and she loses as soon as that is no longer a massive advantage?
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JetJaguar posted...

To be fair Arya is the one character GRRM says he kind of cheats with because he promised somebody he wouldn't kill her off.

And Jon... and Dany... and Sansa.... and Littlefinger... etc
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JetJaguar posted...

But what if we're supposed to see it as Dany succeeding in spite of herself because she has dragons and she loses as soon as that is no longer a massive advantage?

Dumb thing to spend 60 episodes on
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Then I'd say the showrunners have done a horrendous job of putting that point across.
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The show took giant missteps and gross shortcuts in Seasons 5 and 6. Arya, Dany, Jon, Sansa, Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion have all suffered. They were working with bloated and often subpar source material and it had obvious, major growing pains.

But I don't think Season 7 has done anything out of line yet. It's patching up previous seasons' wounds a bit, but I don't see any point in castigating it for the past mistakes at this point.

As a positive example of something they've done this season, Euron with Cersei is far smoother and more intelligent-sounding than the Euron who talked about his big cock on the Iron Islands. It's not quite a retcon, though - the Euron who confronted Balon in private was also much more intelligently menacing. Jaime alludes to Euron's burning of the Lannisport fleet.

The obvious implication is that Euron isn't the blithering redneck idiot that we saw in 6x05. He acted that way because (as both he and Jaime acknowledge) the Ironborn are fucking morons. This is just the way to gain their respect.
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I mean even in the books Euron is pretty braggadocious so it's not super out of character
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foolm0r0n posted...

JetJaguar posted...

To be fair Arya is the one character GRRM says he kind of cheats with because he promised somebody he wouldn't kill her off.

And Jon... and Dany... and Sansa.... and Littlefinger... etc

I'm just gonna sit here and chuckle to myself, iff'n you please.

also I am still butthurt over Stannis's end IT MADE NO SENSE WHY WAS HIS WIFE BREAKING DOWN OVER MURDERING THEIR DAUGHTER AND NOT HIM YEARGH

ahem.

GRRM give me books so I can supplant that memory FMA-style please~
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the iron islands are just a silly place

Jaime totally had their number in the last episode, "They're not good at anything!" lmao
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dowolf posted...

also I am still butthurt over Stannis's end IT MADE NO SENSE WHY WAS HIS WIFE BREAKING DOWN OVER MURDERING THEIR DAUGHTER AND NOT HIM YEARGH

show-stannis shows zero passion, and he deliberately kills any source of passion in his daughter. the only real emotions that overcome him are anger and frustration. (there's no question that he loves shireen, but even that is shown in a super-restrained/repressed way.)

selyse is a very passionate character - she approaches the red god with fervor, she's solicitous withe melisandre, she's got them crazy eyes and was clearly extremely broken up about her capability to bear sons. it doesn't make zero sense why she's the one breaking down, and it's intended to be shocking since stannis is the one who more obviously loves his daughter and selyse is the more religious one.
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Also hate to break it to you but Stannis really wasn't all he was cracked up to be and now star player Davos can shine
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xp1337 posted...

the iron islands are just a silly place

Jaime totally had their number in the last episode, "They're not good at anything!" lmao

yesss jaime was straight spitting fire last episode.

'I'm the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.' / 'Three kingdoms, at best!'
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SeabassDebeste posted...

dowolf posted...

also I am still butthurt over Stannis's end IT MADE NO SENSE WHY WAS HIS WIFE BREAKING DOWN OVER MURDERING THEIR DAUGHTER AND NOT HIM YEARGH

show-stannis shows zero passion, and he deliberately kills any source of passion in his daughter. the only real emotions that overcome him are anger and frustration. (there's no question that he loves shireen, but even that is shown in a super-restrained/repressed way.)

selyse is a very passionate character - she approaches the red god with fervor, she's solicitous withe melisandre, she's got them crazy eyes and was clearly extremely broken up about her capability to bear sons. it doesn't make zero sense why she's the one breaking down, and it's intended to be shocking since stannis is the one who more obviously loves his daughter and selyse is the more religious one.

I realize this -- and I feel like we've had this exact same conversation before -- but:
a) I can't ignore the book-Stannis that I feel like I know very well, for whom Shireen is the world.
b) D&D's decision here feels like it plays into their inability to write female characters -- Selyse becomes the stereotypical mother because stereotype is all they have.
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dowolf posted...

I realize this -- and I feel like we've had this exact same conversation before -- but:
a) I can't ignore the book-Stannis that I feel like I know very well, for whom Shireen is the world.
b) D&D's decision here feels like it plays into their inability to write female characters -- Selyse becomes the stereotypical mother because stereotype is all they have.

yeah, i think we have

a) stannis isn't a POV character in the books, so we do need to see how his decisions bear out there. also, keep in mind that GRRM has heard people's reactions, so at this point TWOW might be considered canon, but it has inevitably been affected by the show. we will *never* know how it would have gone down had d/d not gotten there first. there's a big tendency to lionize book-stannis, and while he's less explicitly ambitious/evil than show-stannis, i think davos's POV biases us.

i will sympathize with your never getting the book-stannis adapted to TV exactly as he was written, though (despite that i think show-stannis is closer than you'd like to admit). to me, the character most ruined by the show is probably brienne.

b) d/d unfortunately do mostly suck with female characters (dany is flat, cersei is made oversympathetic, brienne is made crude and violent and utterly unfeminine, the waif is a jealous bitch with no depth and a strange amount of screen time, the less said about the dornishwomen the better...) but i don't think this is that instance. melisandre never feels like a stereotype there; she never flinches. no feminine stereotype there, IMO.
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Stannis is the most ruined character... probably. Littlefinger is a strong second though, but it's a long list.

On the other hand Sandor Clegane is way better. Thoros too. Really, the Brotherhood without Banners is just a solid group in general.
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King Stannis the Mannis is the ONE TRUE KING. ALL PRAISE HIS NAME!
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n
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If you love books so much why don't you marry them
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SeabassDebeste posted...

to me, the character most ruined by the show is probably brienne.

I mean, most ruined character to me is Sam. But that's neither here nor there. Littlefinger I agree is up there (Chaos can be a ladder all you want, but that ladder still needs to have rungs when you're done with it!).

Clegane's about the same? They definitely did an incredible job with him, but I love him in the books too so *shrug* Thoros is sort've just there for me in both versions.

SeabassDebeste posted...

melisandre never feels like a stereotype there; she never flinches. no feminine stereotype there, IMO.

Melisandre's fine, yeah. Though I think you could argue she fits into the stereotype of a witch.

a) stannis isn't a POV character in the books, so we do need to see how his decisions bear out there.

Have you read the Stannis sample chapter, incidentally?
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i presume you're talking about theon's chapter, where stannis telling justin massey to put shireen on the iron throne, right? but he does that at zero cost to himself - the books have not put stannis in a position where he has to choose between the throne and shireen.

GANON1025 posted...

If you love books so much why don't you marry them

because we all know they wouldn't put out
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foolm0r0n posted...

JetJaguar posted...

To be fair Arya is the one character GRRM says he kind of cheats with because he promised somebody he wouldn't kill her off.

And Jon... and Dany... and Sansa.... and Littlefinger... etc

This reminds me that in the letter Martin wrote describing his planned plot way back when the series was a trilogy, he had a list of characters who would survive into the final book, and it pretty well matches who I'd expect at this point: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, and Bran. While a great many things have changed since then - hopefully the Jon/Arya romance is one of them - I suspect that list has remained pretty much the same and all of them still have plot armor for a little while longer.
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...Was that Theon's chapter? I could've sworn it was from Stannis's perspective.

...Huh. Nope, you're right. I dunno what's going on in my head, then.
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to me, the character most ruined by the show is probably brienne.

!!!

Pretty much anyone in Dorne got a far worse fate.

EDIT: Yeah, Littlefinger is another very good candidate. Also I'm still heartbroken the Manderlys never got into the action, because them and the northern conspiracy were far and away my favorite part of ADWD.
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I forgot about Bran

crippled dude and a girl wandering around in 4 feet of snow chased by demons and wildlings for months

not a scratch on them
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foolm0r0n posted...

I forgot about Bran

crippled dude and a girl wandering around in 4 feet of snow chased by demons and wildlings for months

not a scratch on them

The demon part would actually make sense if the Night King intentionally let them go as part of a plan to have the mark he branded Bran with to compromise The Wall

otherwise yeah it's ridiculous they made it back to the wall without being overrun by zombies
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They're that good.
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Meera gonna drop the megaton next episode that she solo'd the White Walkers. She heard there were some dragons coming and thought maybe they'd provide a real challenge.
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xp1337 posted...

The demon part would actually make sense if the Night King intentionally let them go as part of a plan to have the mark he branded Bran with to compromise The Wall

That does make sense, but in that case Hodor literally died for nothing since the Night King wasn't gonna hurt Bran anyways
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I mean they would have killed Meera though so there is still some stakes to that
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xp1337 posted...

foolm0r0n posted...

I forgot about Bran

crippled dude and a girl wandering around in 4 feet of snow chased by demons and wildlings for months

not a scratch on them

The demon part would actually make sense if the Night King intentionally let them go as part of a plan to have the mark he branded Bran with to compromise The Wall

otherwise yeah it's ridiculous they made it back to the wall without being overrun by zombies

What actually bothered me about the scene was the exchange with the gatekeeper:

"I'm Bran."
"Why should I believe you?"
"Because I magically know random things that I shouldn't."
"Well, considering we're fighting monsters with mystical powers beyond our ken, clearly this means you're trustworthy!"
foolm0r0n posted...

That does make sense, but in that case Hodor literally died for nothing since the Night King wasn't gonna hurt Bran anyways

he died for time-traveling mind rape and a pun.

ARE YOU TELLING ME THE PUN WASN'T WORTH IT?!

Ulti: I don't think you can ruin somebody by making them not exist, though I agree what happened to Caitlyn was a travesty in general.
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dowolf posted...

ARE YOU TELLING ME THE PUN WASN'T WORTH IT?!

I mean

that pun sucked, it's not even a pun
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Let's make one thing perfectly clear. The character most ruined by the show is (BOOK SPOILERS) Lady Stoneheart. There is zero reason for her not to be on the show executing people left and right.

The trade-off is the Hound teaming up with Beric and Thoros....executing people left and right. Show wins. Cat sucks.
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Dondarion > Spoiler
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dowolf posted...

What actually bothered me about the scene was the exchange with the gatekeeper:

my boy dolorous edd also suffering on the show

but that's expected because in the book he's amazing

Seriously though it was just a weird exchange. Under what scenario was he going to be like "nope, sorry, not letting you in. have fun out there, see you again when you're undead zombies trying to kill us because i left you on the side with the zombies"

As for lying about who they were, man what Wildlings would have enough Westeros political knowledge to claim to be Meera. Or done the research to know Bran is crippled.
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Biggest plot armor is obviously Dany and Arya.
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I actually think both have lost their plot armor. They both had it while away from Westeros because they pretty much could not die until they returned, but now that they're back I think they're capable of dying.

Arya moreso because she doesn't have dragons/less relevant to the White Walker fight and also because regardless of taking a bunch of levels in Assassin going on a solo mission to King's Landing is pretty dangerous. Especially since it's likely to become a battlefield soon. That said, I expect Arya to survive the series and while I think Daenerys will too I give her a non-trivial chance of going down in some kind of heroic sacrifice.

I'm not sure I'd say anyone has plot armor now. ...Sam? Unless the extent of his role really was to tell Jon that Dragonstone has a bunch of dragonglass.
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I get that Arya is hell-bent on revenge, but it's pretty silly she's going straight to King's Landing instead of meeting back up with her remaining family.
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xp1337 posted...

dowolf posted...

What actually bothered me about the scene was the exchange with the gatekeeper:

my boy dolorous edd also suffering on the show

but that's expected because in the book he's amazing

Seriously though it was just a weird exchange. Under what scenario was he going to be like "nope, sorry, not letting you in. have fun out there, see you again when you're undead zombies trying to kill us because i left you on the side with the zombies"

As for lying about who they were, man what Wildlings would have enough Westeros political knowledge to claim to be Meera. Or done the research to know Bran is crippled.

Even if they are wildlings why wouldn't Edd let them in? The scene seems pointless without Edd making the connection to Jon and offering help.
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That's kind of my point. There's no reason for Edd to refuse to let them in regardless of who they are. It's important he know who they are so he can let Jon and Sansa know, but the scene made it seem like he was doubting them and there's just no rational reason for him to do that.
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Ah I read that wrong
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