Current Events > they're pushing for the Foxconn plant to open in Wisconsin because jobs

(+) Yeah! (+)

saying it will make ~3000 new jobs in the area. sure, right when the plant opens they'll employ that many people. but we all know the ultimate end-goal of factories is to fully automate. so we're gonna give a gigantic, multi-national corporation a metric fuckton (scientific amount) of money via tax deductions, all in the name of creating 3000 jobs that will last, what, a couple of years? we'll still be giving Foxconn tax breaks even after they've automated away all those jobs.

how is this good for anyone except Foxconn executives and their shareholders? am i missing something here?
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

saying it will make ~3000 new jobs in the area. sure, right when the plant opens they'll employ that many people. but we all know the ultimate end-goal of factories is to fully automate. so we're gonna give a gigantic, multi-national corporation a metric fuckton (scientific amount) of money via tax deductions, all in the name of creating 3000 jobs that will last, what, a couple of years? we'll still be giving Foxconn tax breaks even after they've automated away all those jobs.

how is this good for anyone except Foxconn executives and their shareholders? am i missing something here?

It's good for americans because the shit Foxconn makes is extremely valuable and not having to import it would save us a fuckton of money that normally goes to China right now to pay Foxconn for their work there.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

saying it will make ~3000 new jobs in the area. sure, right when the plant opens they'll employ that many people. but we all know the ultimate end-goal of factories is to fully automate. so we're gonna give a gigantic, multi-national corporation a metric fuckton (scientific amount) of money via tax deductions, all in the name of creating 3000 jobs that will last, what, a couple of years? we'll still be giving Foxconn tax breaks even after they've automated away all those jobs.

how is this good for anyone except Foxconn executives and their shareholders? am i missing something here?

It's good for americans because the shit Foxconn makes is extremely valuable and not having to import it would save us a fuckton of money that normally goes to China right now to pay Foxconn for their work there.

AFAIK this plant is only manufacturing LCD screens for televisions.

so you're saying that the reduced cost of electronics (or whatever the factory produces) to american consumers is worth giving Foxconn billions in tax credits/cuts?
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

but we all know the ultimate end-goal of factories is to fully automate.

No, the ultimate end goal is to not have to load up a giant boat with Chinese crap and steam it all the way across the pacific.
Automation is just incidental to the process.

Giant_Aspirin posted...

AFAIK this plant is only manufacturing LCD screens for televisions.

so you're saying that the reduced cost of electronics (or whatever the factory produces) to american consumers is worth giving Foxconn billions in tax credits/cuts?

Right now Foxconn is being taxed nothing because they have no presence in America.

Secondly, even if Foxconn were being taxed nothing in America, that's still money that stays in America instead of being sent to the Chinese.

Third, you are exaggerating how much tax cuts they're going to be given.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

but we all know the ultimate end-goal of factories is to fully automate.

No, the ultimate end goal is to not have to load up a giant boat with Chinese crap and steam it all the way across the pacific.
Automation is just incidental to the process.

im not sure the point you're making here. perhaps 'end goal' wasn't the right word choice? but my point is that it's obvious that factories like Foxconn aren't interested in employing people once robots are economically more viable.

if we're going to get technical about it, the ultimate end goal of any company is to make as much profit as possible and both automation and reduced transportation distance contribute to that.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

if we're going to get technical about it, the ultimate end goal of any company is to make as much profit as possible and both automation and reduced transportation distance contribute to that.

Congratulations, you've just described capitalism.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Third, you are exaggerating how much tax cuts they're going to be given.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/26/business/foxconn-factory-wisconsin-jobs.html

Mr. Walker said that Foxconn would receive $3 billion in tax breaks and other subsidies over the next 15 years from the state.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

but we all know the ultimate end-goal of factories is to fully automate.

No, the ultimate end goal is to not have to load up a giant boat with Chinese crap and steam it all the way across the pacific.
Automation is just incidental to the process.

im not sure the point you're making here. perhaps 'end goal' wasn't the right word choice? but my point is that it's obvious that factories like Foxconn aren't interested in employing people once robots are economically more viable.

if we're going to get technical about it, the ultimate end goal of any company is to make as much profit as possible and both automation and reduced transportation distance contribute to that.

Were the goal robots, it wouldn't matter much if the robots were in Madison or Shenzhen.
If anything, the fact the Wisconsin is a right-to-work state is a very good indicator that Foxconn really does want people working in some capacity, right next to the robots (or at least on the other side of a light curtain).

Where are they going to install the suicide nets?
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Antifar posted...

Where are they going to install the suicide nets?

Don't have to. Lake Michigan is right there.

ChromaticAngel posted...

Right now Foxconn is being taxed nothing because they have no presence in America.

Secondly, even if Foxconn were being taxed nothing in America, that's still money that stays in America instead of being sent to the Chinese.

I don't really get these points, though. Foxconn isn't being taxed here, because they don't have a presence here. The problem people have is that they're still not going to be taxed here even after they have a presence here,.
To be fair, I actually don't know if that's true for this project. I know, here in Arkansas, we have financed superprojects that never end up paying back the tax incentives they cost. This is a quote from one of their reports:

" ... the $240 million behind the recycling tax credit produces a ratio less than zero to the "negative benefit" on the revenue side of the ledger. This is an absurd result from the standpoint of a benefit-cost analysis, so we did not include it here."

translation: this tax credit is going to perpetually cost us money but we're not going to consider that because you can't have a negative return on your investment!

with regards to two, the issue is less about what they're making for us to buy and more about the capital and labor they're using to create the facility to produce the stuff they're wanting us to buy. $3b in tax subsidies can do a lot of stuff, I doubt this is the best allocation of that capital
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Were the goal robots, it wouldn't matter much if the robots were in Madison or Shenzhen.
If anything, the fact the Wisconsin is a right-to-work state is a very good indicator that Foxconn really does want people working in some capacity, right next to the robots (or at least on the other side of a light curtain).

well yeah, they don't want their roborepairmen unionizing
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Balrog0 posted...

well yeah, they don't want their roborepairmen unionizing

Well... yeah.

yeah, they're using a similar PILOT scheme that screws taxpayers on economic development projects in my state (and most states I'm guessing)

http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2017/08/01/foxconn-bill-contains-another-big-potential-obligation-wisconsin-taxpayers/529383001/

Local governments could use a form of borrowing such as tax incremental financing to build massive infrastructure for Foxconn in what are now undeveloped fields.

Under TIF, a village or city would borrow money to build streets and sewers and then use the property taxes on the newly built private plant to pay off the loans. Once the debt is paid off, the municipality could start using the tax money from the property for public safety and other local services.

The Foxconn bill would lift a cap on the size of TIF districts, which currently is limited to 12% of the total assessed property value in a community. The bill would also allow the district to be paid off over 30 years rather than the current limit of 20 years.

so basically the additional tax revenue the facility might bring into the area is going to be used specifically for paying down the debt the localities incurred in order to incentivize the firm to locate there in the first place.
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TIF is a bunch of bullshit, yes.
It's kingmaking at best, which is bad.

At worst, it's yet another unfunded liability waiting to trigger municipal bankruptcy and capital-flight when the bonds default, which is catastrophic.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Antifar posted...

Where are they going to install the suicide nets?

Don't have to. Lake Michigan is right there.

Is Lake Michigan swimmable though?

Honestly don't know.
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