Current Events > what makes taxation not theft

(+) Yeah! (+)

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when your taxes are used for public services that you use.

(simple and unindepth answer)
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i don't use public services
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You have representation that you can lobby to abolish taxes
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How do you get from one place to another? No roads or sidewalks?
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Philoktetes posted...

i don't use public services

Do you use roads?
The mail system?
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Literally started the topic with a picture for an argument

*back to topic list*
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This is why the world thinks americans are stupid
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consent to not be kicked out of the country, thrown in jail or killed by their military
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Laserion posted...

How do you get from one place to another? No roads or sidewalks?

Did I ask you to pave those roads for me buddy? I don't even want roads, but forced to used them. It's insufferable
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You consent there by living there. Don't live where the government has authority over and they wont ask you for money. Its that simple.

There's a social contract between you and the government that you enter into the second you're born. Part of it entails you get taxed and in return the country implements law and justice and services to ensure everything doesn't devolve into chaos. John Locke figured this shit

Laserion posted...

How do you get from one place to another? No roads or sidewalks?

hoverpack
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The "social contract" is generally understood to be agreed upon by both the people and the government, even though the individuals that make up those two groups change.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

consent to not be kicked out of the country, thrown in jail or killed by their military

That really is the truth of it. When you pay your taxes, you are consenting to not getting your ass kicked by the government.
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You aren't forced to live in America and can move elsewhere if you dislike the laws of the country. You could also go live out in the country away from any public services and live off the land so you don't need to pay taxes. No one is stopping you do either.
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Similar reasons to why rent is not theft (or is theft, depending on your outlook).
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fenderbender321 posted...

Do you really think there's a place in the world where I can just move to, start building my own irrigation system, power source, roads, etc?

Do you really think that you actually would want to?
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Antifar posted...

The "social contract" is generally understood to be agreed upon by both the people and the government, even though the individuals that make up those two groups change.

So is that really consent? If anything the embedded belief in the social contract is similar to how at one time the Divine Right was believed and used as justification to maintain the status quo. The social contract is obviously a more logically consistent concept, but I feel it's a default and thoughtless response to questioning about what we understand the "state" to be. The nation-state is not the only model of governance, nor is the social contract an infallible concept. Hundreds of years in the future I guarantee you humans will come up with an alternative model to societal-organization that does not include the 'state' as presently understood, and the social contract will just be an idea practiced in our past history.

All I'm saying is while the idea of the social contract seems robust enough that no one can argue against it, if only by cultural conditioning for hundreds of years, there are other impactful ideas out there that conceivably bypasses it and deems the state illegitimate. Taxation would certainly be theft under those conceptions of the world
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Funkydog posted...

You aren't forced to live in America and can move elsewhere if you dislike the laws of the country. You could also go live out in the country away from any public services and live off the land so you don't need to pay taxes. No one is stopping you do either.

That is true, but people have used the if you don't like it then get the fuck out argument for many other issues, and they usually get told that it's immoral, unrealistic or some variation of that.
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Asherlee10 posted...

This should be the end of this topic.

And even if they don't (doubtful), pretty much every company and organization depends on roads and other infrastructure.

Your property and self are protected by law and enforced by policemen and the judicial system.

The air you breathe is kept (sort of) clean because of government regulations enforced and paid for by taxes

The food you eat was probably transported on public roads and kept (mostly) edible thanks to regulations above

You benefit indirectly and directly from taxation, therefore it is not theft.
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fenderbender321 posted...

Funkydog posted...

You aren't forced to live in America and can move elsewhere if you dislike the laws of the country. You could also go live out in the country away from any public services and live off the land so you don't need to pay taxes. No one is stopping you do either.

All the feasibly inhabitable locations to live on this planet have been occupied by government. Do you really think there's a place in the world where I can just move to, start building my own irrigation system, power source, roads, etc?

You don't need to use those though. Many groups of people get by fine, if you don't want to pay taxes and use the government systems.
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fenderbender321 posted...

There is no contract. Calling it a "social contract" is basically just admitting there is no contract, since you have to make this up.

We are born, and then bam, we are forced to pay taxes just because we are born. And if we don't, the government uses violence against us. We have no choice not to use those public services, because they often times have a monopoly on them.

I can't go out and build my own roads. I can't withhold my taxes and give the money to whatever school I want my kid to go to. They force the money out of our pockets, and spend it on stuff we need, because apparently humans aren't capable of spending money on things they need.

And even if we did use those public services, it's still theft. If I took $150 dollars out of bank account, paid myself $75, and then spent the other $75 on groceries for you and put them in your fridge, would you say that's not theft if you eat those groceries?

Interesting how all of this revolves around currency that is produced and regulated by the government
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The constitution. Fufufufu
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eston posted...

Interesting how all of this revolves around currency that is produced and regulated by the government

On that note, I read an article by a tax expert recently, and he claimed that taxation is not for public spending (the currency created by central banks is), but to recover excess money from the economy and prevent inflation. It was an interesting take on things.

ZMythos posted...

Your property and self are protected by law and enforced by policemen and the judicial system.

The air you breathe is kept (sort of) clean because of government regulations enforced and paid for by taxes

The food you eat was probably transported on public roads and kept (mostly) edible thanks to regulations above

You benefit indirectly and directly from taxation, therefore it is not theft.

Are you really sure the benefits angle is one you want to take, regarding whether or not something is justified? I can think of at least dozen ways I could take what's yours away from you, but still give you something in return for your troubles. I believe you will still try to stop me from doing it, though.
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there's literally no reason to use the mail in tyool 2017

the only reason it still exists is for junk mail
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fenderbender321 posted...

we are forced to pay taxes just because we are born.

please show me this "birth tax" you speak of because AFAIK only income is taxed.
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You agree to pay them when you decide to live here
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I mean, if you're fine living without laws or currency, that's fine.

There are parts of the world where those things don't exist. And some people actually do go to these parts, believe it or not.

But I mean this just sounds like wanting to have all the benefits of being in a regulated and taxed society without being regulated and taxed.
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We should have to pay taxes, but they're way too high.
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Jabodie posted...

I mean, if you're fine living without laws or currency, that's fine.

There are parts of the world where those things don't exist. And some people actually do go to these parts, believe it or not.

But I mean this just sounds like wanting to have all the benefits of being in a regulated and taxed society without being regulated and taxed.

This. No one is stopping you from going and creating your own self sufficient home if you have the ability to do so. Some people are actually fine without the comforts of society. There's tribes all over the world that live without formal taxation or anything like the modern state.

The thing is, that's the level of living you can have without the stability and investment provided by the state. You could try to build something with a group of like minded individuals, but there would need to be a pseudo state set up pretty quickly.

You don't wanna deal with any of that though, you just wanna use all the benefits provided by the state while hollowly claiming you don't need them and could provide them for yourself.
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YoungMutual posted...

This is why the world thinks americans are stupid

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Suppose TC does use the roads. What portion of tax dollars goes to that, and what portion does he get no benefit from?
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This topic is infantile. If there is no tax, there is no government, which, put simply and idealistically, is organized public good. If you don't want to pay tax, go live in a wilderness and survive on your own.
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remember when fender got called out for being a libertarian who uses a computer and instead of defending himself just posted GOD BLESS EVERYONE and left the topic

This topic is infantile. If there is no tax, there is no government

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M
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