Current Events > bakery in Cali refusing to serve same-sex couples faces backlash

(+) Yeah! (+)

hockeybub89 posted...

Forcing a business to not refuse their service from certain people over immutable characteristics is never going to be slavery no matter how hard insane libertarians try to push it. Are you against all rules and restrictions on business owners because muh free market?

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline. You can be refused service for not wearing a shirt.
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s0nicfan posted...

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline. You can be refused service for not wearing a shirt.

Everyone has the ability to meet a dress code. Not everyone is straight.
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Darmik posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline. You can be refused service for not wearing a shirt.

Everyone has the ability to meet a dress code. Not everyone is straight.

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline.
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I'll be honest. I don't know why most of these bakeries haven't simply stopped making wedding cakes completely to avoid the issue.
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Good on the bakery. I hope they stand their ground.
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s0nicfan posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Forcing a business to not refuse their service from certain people over immutable characteristics is never going to be slavery no matter how hard insane libertarians try to push it. Are you against all rules and restrictions on business owners because muh free market?

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline. You can be refused service for not wearing a shirt.

Too many instances seeing that discrimination is illegal.
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hockeybub89 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Forcing a business to not refuse their service from certain people over immutable characteristics is never going to be slavery no matter how hard insane libertarians try to push it. Are you against all rules and restrictions on business owners because muh free market?

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline. You can be refused service for not wearing a shirt.

Too many instances seeing that discrimination is illegal.

Then it shouldn't be hard to name one.
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NINExATExSEVEN posted...

So a bakery can't refuse service to a gay couple without legal action against them, but neo monopolies like Google and YouTube can refuse and hinder millions of people who share a different opinion and thats somehow okay and doesn't deserve legal action.

Wtf?

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s0nicfan posted...

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline.

Name an instance where it's okay to decline selling someone a product you would usually sell to someone else but you won't solely because of the customers demographic.

Because that's the situation here.
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GOATSLAYER posted...

@NINExATExSEVEN

What groups were you talking about?

@GOATSLAYER

I was referring to anybody who holds opinions that aren't accepted by the far left. So that can encompass anti-sjw's, people who criticize the gender narrative, critics of Islam, regular liberals, centrists etc.

I have no idea why he jumped straight to Nazis. Shows what kind of distorted veiw he has of things.
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s0nicfan posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Forcing a business to not refuse their service from certain people over immutable characteristics is never going to be slavery no matter how hard insane libertarians try to push it. Are you against all rules and restrictions on business owners because muh free market?

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline. You can be refused service for not wearing a shirt.

Too many instances seeing that discrimination is illegal.

Then it shouldn't be hard to name one.

One of the other bakeries that wasn't allowed to discriminate. I can also just go ahead and quote US law if that would be preferable. Discrimination is illegal in the United States
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fenderbender321 posted...

Why can't people leave their sexuality at home? It shouldn't interfere with somebody else's work.

Damn I guess gay people can only get married at home and in secret.
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hockeybub89 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Forcing a business to not refuse their service from certain people over immutable characteristics is never going to be slavery no matter how hard insane libertarians try to push it. Are you against all rules and restrictions on business owners because muh free market?

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline. You can be refused service for not wearing a shirt.

Too many instances seeing that discrimination is illegal.

Then it shouldn't be hard to name one.

One of the other bakeries that wasn't allowed to discriminate. I can also just go ahead and quote US law if that would be preferable. Discrimination is illegal in the United States

If you can't name a single example that isn't this exact situation then just say so. There's "too many" to pick from, right?
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NINExATExSEVEN posted...

GOATSLAYER posted...

@NINExATExSEVEN

What groups were you talking about?

@GOATSLAYER

I was referring to anybody who holds opinions that aren't accepted by the far left. So that can encompass anti-sjw's, people who criticize the gender narrative, critics of Islam, regular liberals, centrists etc.

I have no idea why he jumped straight to Nazis. Shows what kind of distorted veiw he has of things.

Be specific. Which people have Google been kicking off of YouTube?
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Darmik posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline.

Name an instance where it's okay to decline selling someone a product you would usually sell to someone else but you won't solely because of the customers demographic.

Because that's the situation here.

If I put my used car up for sale, I can decline a sale to anyone for any reason.
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fenderbender321 posted...

LightningAce11 posted...

Why can't these people leave their religious beliefs at home? It shouldn't interfere with work.

Why can't people leave their sexuality at home? It shouldn't interfere with somebody else's work.

Remember, businesses are PRIVATE, not PUBLIC. A business should not be treated differently than somebody's residence.

Religion is a choice. Sexuality is what you're born with.

What you can't control > a choice you pick up.
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s0nicfan posted...

If you can't name a single example that isn't this exact situation then just say so. There's "too many" to pick from, right?

I'm pretty sure there were several restaurants that were forced to serve minorities or risk closure. And schools were forced to accept black children whether they liked it or not. That was the basis of the Civil Rights act.
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TheVipaGTS posted...

. I also have no idea why Bakers make such a big deal about this. Christians also own party supply stores, dress shops, tuxedo shops, etc, etc, etc...Christian owned businesses have been contributing to Gay weddings since Gay weddings have been a thing. But for some really odd reason they've apparently decided to put their foot down when it comes to the cake..

I think it has to do with writing the names on the cake. You can rent/sell tuxedos to someone without knowing what it's for (or pretend you don't know). But if you have to write on top of the cake "Congratulations, John and Robert!", then you know. That's my guess.
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s0nicfan posted...

Darmik posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline.

Name an instance where it's okay to decline selling someone a product you would usually sell to someone else but you won't solely because of the customers demographic.

Because that's the situation here.

If I put my used car up for sale, I can decline a sale to anyone for any reason.

Unfortunately for this bakery they weren't an individual selling a used wedding cake to one person. They were a business that baked cakes for customers every single day.
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LightningAce11 posted...

Religion is a choice. Sexuality is what you're born with.

What you can't control > a choice you pick up.

to be fair, I don't think many religious people think of it as a choice.

though I would like to add, that part of me hopes Christianity is true because these people are in for a shock when they meet their Maker and he's super pissed off at them for being assholes for no real reason
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Darmik posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Darmik posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline.

Name an instance where it's okay to decline selling someone a product you would usually sell to someone else but you won't solely because of the customers demographic.

Because that's the situation here.

If I put my used car up for sale, I can decline a sale to anyone for any reason.

Unfortunately for this bakery they weren't an individual selling a used wedding cake to one person. They were a business that baked cakes for customers every single day.

As a car rental company I can refuse to rent a vehicle to anyone under the age of 25 even though there are no legal reasons to deny them service.
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s0nicfan posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Forcing a business to not refuse their service from certain people over immutable characteristics is never going to be slavery no matter how hard insane libertarians try to push it. Are you against all rules and restrictions on business owners because muh free market?

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline. You can be refused service for not wearing a shirt.

Too many instances seeing that discrimination is illegal.

Then it shouldn't be hard to name one.

One of the other bakeries that wasn't allowed to discriminate. I can also just go ahead and quote US law if that would be preferable. Discrimination is illegal in the United States

If you can't name a single example that isn't this exact situation then just say so. There's "too many" to pick from, right?

Would you require me to name another instance where you can be forced to stop killing people if this was a topic on murder? Murder is illegal. I don't need to give specific examples.
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s0nicfan posted...

As a car rental company I can refuse to rent a vehicle to anyone under the age of 25 even though there are no legal reasons to deny them service.

Lawmakers granted them an exception because of the high rate of vehicle accidents with people under 25. Also, I don't think age is a protected class.

Have lawmakers granted bakeries exceptions due to their religious beliefs?
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A_Good_Boy posted...

NINExATExSEVEN posted...

GOATSLAYER posted...

@NINExATExSEVEN

What groups were you talking about?

@GOATSLAYER

I was referring to anybody who holds opinions that aren't accepted by the far left. So that can encompass anti-sjw's, people who criticize the gender narrative, critics of Islam, regular liberals, centrists etc.

I have no idea why he jumped straight to Nazis. Shows what kind of distorted veiw he has of things.

Be specific. Which people have Google been kicking off of YouTube?

Did you really quote me to ask me a question that was answered in the same quote?

Groups here are irrelevant since the issue is with Google and YouTube trying to silence and get rid of people for "wrong think"

The left, right and center have veiws that go against the regressive narrative and they all must be silenced.
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s0nicfan posted...

As a car rental company I can refuse to rent a vehicle to anyone under the age of 25 even though there are no legal reasons to deny them service.

This isn't the case everywhere.

Presumably this is due to safety concerns so it's still a different scenario even though I personally don't agree with it. I don't think there are any safety concerns selling cakes to gay couples.
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hockeybub89 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Forcing a business to not refuse their service from certain people over immutable characteristics is never going to be slavery no matter how hard insane libertarians try to push it. Are you against all rules and restrictions on business owners because muh free market?

Name another instance where you can force someone to do a job they decline. You can be refused service for not wearing a shirt.

Too many instances seeing that discrimination is illegal.

Then it shouldn't be hard to name one.

One of the other bakeries that wasn't allowed to discriminate. I can also just go ahead and quote US law if that would be preferable. Discrimination is illegal in the United States

If you can't name a single example that isn't this exact situation then just say so. There's "too many" to pick from, right?

Would you require me to name another instance where you can be forced to stop killing people if this was a topic on murder? Murder is illegal. I don't need to give specific examples.

You should really try following Darmik's example. Rather than shitpost in circles because they can't come up with anything, they're actually engaging in a meaningful way.
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NINExATExSEVEN posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

NINExATExSEVEN posted...

GOATSLAYER posted...

@NINExATExSEVEN

What groups were you talking about?

@GOATSLAYER

I was referring to anybody who holds opinions that aren't accepted by the far left. So that can encompass anti-sjw's, people who criticize the gender narrative, critics of Islam, regular liberals, centrists etc.

I have no idea why he jumped straight to Nazis. Shows what kind of distorted veiw he has of things.

Be specific. Which people have Google been kicking off of YouTube?

Did you really quote me to ask me a question that was answered in the same quote?

Groups here are irrelevant since the issue is with Google and YouTube trying to silence and get rid of people for "wrong think"

The left, right and center have veiws that go against the regressive narrative and they all must be silenced.

So you don't actually know of any specific individuals or groups that have been kicked off of YouTube despite having no issue whining about it? That's odd breh.
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I'm not going to engage you any further since you're being dense on purpose just for the sake of argument.
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s0nicfan posted...

But indentured servitude is also not legal. You can't force someone to do something for you, even if you offer to pay them. I don't agree with the bakers' opinions, but how is making them bake a cake they don't want to not a form of forced labor?

No one made them be bakers. They can do other jobs.

It'd be like getting a job at a pig farm and complaining your religious beliefs don't let you handle pig. Get another job!

There are a LOT of jobs that don't involve baking cakes for gay weddings.
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fenderbender321 posted...

Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

Says the man who sees no difference between petting a horse and having sex with it.
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s0nicfan posted...

You should really try following Darmik's example. Rather than shitpost in circles because they can't come up with anything, they're actually engaging in a meaningful way.

I came up with something though. I wouldn't give you examples of punishing people for committing other crimes, so I shouldn't need to do for business discrimination. Punishing people for breaking the law is standard practice.
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Darmik posted...

s0nicfan posted...

As a car rental company I can refuse to rent a vehicle to anyone under the age of 25 even though there are no legal reasons to deny them service.

This isn't the case everywhere.

Presumably this is due to safety concerns so it's still a different scenario even though I personally don't agree with it. I don't think there are any safety concerns selling cakes to gay couples.

55 and older communities can refuse to sell a house to a couple or individual under 55.
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fenderbender321 posted...

A business is private property. The owner either owns that property, or leases it. That's no different than a residence. An open sign simply means you aren't trespassing while walking in. But that doesn't mean you have the right their services.

Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

This isn't the way things work though. You just have all these ideals and you assert them as fact.
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NINExATExSEVEN posted...

I'm not going to engage you any further since you're being dense on purpose just for the sake of argument.

I'm being dense by asking for specific examples? If you have specific examples of individuals that you're talking about then it shouldn't be such a challenge for you to name a few. Unless you really are just whining about absolutely nothing, then go ahead and just say as much.
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s0nicfan posted...

55 and older communities can refuse to sell a house to a couple or individual under 55.

What this suggests is that there are exceptions when there is an issue of safety or some other legitimate concern. Considering how many bakeries have been successfully taken to court over this issue, it seems lawmakers don't consider "My concept of god doesn't allow me to serve you" to be exception-worthy.
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s0nicfan posted...

Darmik posted...

s0nicfan posted...

As a car rental company I can refuse to rent a vehicle to anyone under the age of 25 even though there are no legal reasons to deny them service.

This isn't the case everywhere.

Presumably this is due to safety concerns so it's still a different scenario even though I personally don't agree with it. I don't think there are any safety concerns selling cakes to gay couples.

55 and older communities can refuse to sell a house to a couple or individual under 55.

Maybe these bakeries should register as straight-Christian-only clubs then.
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That_Happened posted...

s0nicfan posted...

55 and older communities can refuse to sell a house to a couple or individual under 55.

What this suggests is that there are exceptions when there is an issue of safety or some other legitimate concern. Considering how many bakeries have been successfully taken to court over this issue, it seems lawmakers don't consider "My concept of god doesn't allow me to serve you" to be exception-worthy.

The "legitimate concern" with 55 and older communities is "old people don't want to deal with young people" though. There's NO safety concern like they might be with renting cars.
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The Deadpool posted...

s0nicfan posted...

But indentured servitude is also not legal. You can't force someone to do something for you, even if you offer to pay them. I don't agree with the bakers' opinions, but how is making them bake a cake they don't want to not a form of forced labor?

No one made them be bakers. They can do other jobs.

It'd be like getting a job at a pig farm and complaining your religious beliefs don't let you handle pig. Get another job!

There are a LOT of jobs that don't involve baking cakes for gay weddings.

There's a difference between having a job and owning a business. A company can enforce any standard they want and you as an employee can agree with it or find another job. If you own a business, though, that's a totally different thing.
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s0nicfan posted...

The Deadpool posted...

s0nicfan posted...

But indentured servitude is also not legal. You can't force someone to do something for you, even if you offer to pay them. I don't agree with the bakers' opinions, but how is making them bake a cake they don't want to not a form of forced labor?

No one made them be bakers. They can do other jobs.

It'd be like getting a job at a pig farm and complaining your religious beliefs don't let you handle pig. Get another job!

There are a LOT of jobs that don't involve baking cakes for gay weddings.

There's a difference between having a job and owning a business. A company can enforce any standard they want and you as an employee can agree with it or find another job. If you own a business, though, that's a totally different thing.

Are business owners not subject to laws and regulations in your version of reality?
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Also dating services can refuse to accept members that don't fit their desired demographic. I don't know how many extra examples I'm going to have to name, but maybe we can at least come to some kind of consensus like "bakeries are being used as a proxy war between the religious right and the left" which is why they seem to keep coming up yet all these other instances are allowed to stand?"
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A_Good_Boy posted...

s0nicfan posted...

The Deadpool posted...

s0nicfan posted...

But indentured servitude is also not legal. You can't force someone to do something for you, even if you offer to pay them. I don't agree with the bakers' opinions, but how is making them bake a cake they don't want to not a form of forced labor?

No one made them be bakers. They can do other jobs.

It'd be like getting a job at a pig farm and complaining your religious beliefs don't let you handle pig. Get another job!

There are a LOT of jobs that don't involve baking cakes for gay weddings.

There's a difference between having a job and owning a business. A company can enforce any standard they want and you as an employee can agree with it or find another job. If you own a business, though, that's a totally different thing.

Are business owners not subject to laws and regulations in your version of reality?

Apparently they're subject to forced labor in yours.
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LOL UH OH. I saw that, s0nic!

The Deadpool posted...

No one made them be bakers. They can do other jobs.

It'd be like getting a job at a pig farm and complaining your religious beliefs don't let you handle pig. Get another job!

There are a LOT of jobs that don't involve baking cakes for gay weddings.

s0nicfan posted...

http://www.business2community.com/us-news/target-accommodating-muslim-employees-selling-pork-alcohol-fact-check-01747098#goX7VKrUc2opzBoB.97

You tried to suggest that Target had a company policy that designated "no-pork" checkout lines, but your own link proved that this was a hoax. LOLOL

Stop trying to hastily Google exceptions at the last minute, for fuck's sake.
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That_Happened posted...

LOL UH OH. I saw that, s0nic!

The Deadpool posted...

No one made them be bakers. They can do other jobs.

It'd be like getting a job at a pig farm and complaining your religious beliefs don't let you handle pig. Get another job!

There are a LOT of jobs that don't involve baking cakes for gay weddings.

s0nicfan posted...

http://www.business2community.com/us-news/target-accommodating-muslim-employees-selling-pork-alcohol-fact-check-01747098#goX7VKrUc2opzBoB.97

You tried to suggest that Target had a company policy that designated "no-pork" checkout lines, but your own link proved that this was a hoax. LOLOL

Stop trying to hastily Google exceptions at the last minute, for fuck's sake.

Yes, I made a mistake and deleted it, because I thought I had heard it was true but then removed it after reading the link because I was wrong. It's almost like I'm a rational person with a reasonable position arguing with 4 people at the same time and making the occasional mistake. Are you going to crucify me for it?
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s0nicfan posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

s0nicfan posted...

The Deadpool posted...

s0nicfan posted...

But indentured servitude is also not legal. You can't force someone to do something for you, even if you offer to pay them. I don't agree with the bakers' opinions, but how is making them bake a cake they don't want to not a form of forced labor?

No one made them be bakers. They can do other jobs.

It'd be like getting a job at a pig farm and complaining your religious beliefs don't let you handle pig. Get another job!

There are a LOT of jobs that don't involve baking cakes for gay weddings.

There's a difference between having a job and owning a business. A company can enforce any standard they want and you as an employee can agree with it or find another job. If you own a business, though, that's a totally different thing.

Are business owners not subject to laws and regulations in your version of reality?

Apparently they're subject to forced labor in yours.

What does it mean to be "forced" to follow the law?
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s0nicfan posted...

The "legitimate concern" with 55 and older communities is "old people don't want to deal with young people" though. There's NO safety concern like they might be with renting cars.

I don't think that's it. Businesses sell these places as retirement communities and they cater to that. They're designed for old people.

In any case catering for age groups is a specific kind of business. A babysitter probably isn't going to babysit a grown man. Her job is to take care of kids.

It's still nothing like a cake. These people are not changing their roles at all. From their side of the business it makes no difference who is buying their cakes.
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s0nicfan posted...

There's a difference between having a job and owning a business. A company can enforce any standard they want and you as an employee can agree with it or find another job. If you own a business, though, that's a totally different thing.

If you own a business you have to follow government guidelines. You need permits and liscenses and shit. And one of those rules is to not discriminate against people.
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A_Good_Boy posted...

s0nicfan posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

s0nicfan posted...

The Deadpool posted...

s0nicfan posted...

But indentured servitude is also not legal. You can't force someone to do something for you, even if you offer to pay them. I don't agree with the bakers' opinions, but how is making them bake a cake they don't want to not a form of forced labor?

No one made them be bakers. They can do other jobs.

It'd be like getting a job at a pig farm and complaining your religious beliefs don't let you handle pig. Get another job!

There are a LOT of jobs that don't involve baking cakes for gay weddings.

There's a difference between having a job and owning a business. A company can enforce any standard they want and you as an employee can agree with it or find another job. If you own a business, though, that's a totally different thing.

Are business owners not subject to laws and regulations in your version of reality?

Apparently they're subject to forced labor in yours.

What does it mean to be "forced" to follow the law?

It means being tasked with labor you must perform but do not wish to at threat of punishment. There are lots of examples where you can choose not to do something, and extremely few (selective service, jury duty) where you are legally compelled to do something.
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s0nicfan posted...

Also dating services can refuse to accept members that don't fit their desired demographic. I don't know how many extra examples I'm going to have to name, but maybe we can at least come to some kind of consensus like "bakeries are being used as a proxy war between the religious right and the left" which is why they seem to keep coming up yet all these other instances are allowed to stand?"

Are you referring to dating services that cater to specific groups of people? If you're a straight man why would you sign up to a lesbian dating service?

These examples are nothing like the bakery still. People go to a bakery to get a cake baked for them. Not to live with old people or find a date.
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