Board 8 > Save My Favorite Final Fantasy Characters XIX: Day 29 [smfffc]

(+) Yeah! (+)

I think the big problem with Hope is it's not really character building. I probably would've liked him if getting over that added something to the character-- but it just erased an annoying aspect. His character actually had less depth when it was all done because the one interesting part of him disappeared.

Like this is sorta repeating the fruit basket point, but it's not quite the same point being made since it's not really thinking strictly in terms of +/-. I just wish he got anything out of it. Even if it didn't make him particularly likable, just a character aspect that made you realize "yeah he wouldn't have been the same character at this point without that happening."

Because to me, you can erase the first 7 chapters of Hope from the game and just have him be the same character the whole time, and you wouldn't know the difference aside from the memories of the annoying stuff being gone.
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Would've lost the best part of the game though.

but I think "just skip the character development and go straight to the final product and you'd never know the difference" is a silly argument to make
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LeonhartFour posted...

hey if you want your characters to be likable from the start or have less despicable or annoying flaws to overcome then that's your business

it's just kinda boring that way

you can be likable from the start and still grow as a character! Tidus is actually a great example of this. he has major issues that he works through over the course of the game (daddy issues, being super clueless/tonedeaf) but I still liked him basically from the beginning. he's the guy who heard a summoner was in trouble and barged headlong into the trial, because saving someone in trouble is more important than obeying rules. that's the core of Tidus' character. he matures considerably and grows stronger in his convictions -- but all of that is building upon that initial strong foundation.

Hope doesn't really have anything similar. he goes from whiny and homicidal to not whiny and homicidal, and that's about it. where's my fruit basket

(maybe the fruit basket is in 13-2, I stopped after the first game)
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I mean if you want the fruit basket that badly it's there

but I don't think you guys really want the fruit basket

and yes not every character has to be unlikable from the start to grow

but sometimes they should be and those character arcs can be really satisfying
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There's no hope for that fruit basket
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Hope and his mom were sitting around, then Snow came along, butchered the people guarding them, put the gun in Nora's hand, send her off to die along with a lot of other Purge victims came back alone, had a big laugh with his friends, proclaimed himself a hero and then left the fight with the Sanctum he started for his thing and never looked back. Hope is entirely logical in attributing most of the blame on Snow.
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LeonhartFour posted...

but I think "just skip the character development and go straight to the final product and you'd never know the difference" is a silly argument to make

Well I don't think it's true most of the time, so it's not an argument that comes up very often.

Like Tidus, definitely not the same character-- you can see how the stuff he goes through shapes the final product.
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yeah but if he was just that guy from the start you'd never know the difference and it wouldn't matter

that's why it's a silly argument
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LeonhartFour posted...

yeah but if he was just that guy from the start you'd never know the difference and it wouldn't matter

that's why it's a silly argument

You would know the difference. There'd be aspects to his character and personality that are clearly there but that aren't really fleshed out very well and you'd wonder why that was the case. Because the Tidus of the late game is actually influenced by the Tidus of the early game.

Hope doesn't really have anything like that. There's never any scene in the late game where his lust for revenge he overcame ever comes up even tangentially. He's just a generic dude.
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Hope was ok in 13-2 but the plot was such a mess in that game that it almost makes KH's make sense
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how dare you, 13-2 is a masterpiece of fiction
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MarquessLaus posted...

put the gun in Nora's hand,

actually she picked it up off the ground herself
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Are you saying KH isn't the most well written work of fiction in the last 300 years????

You want another example from FF though

Cecil from FFIV

He could've been a Paladin from the start and aside from losing the mysidia arc and losing some scenes moping about slaughtering some mages before the start of the game you wouldn't know the difference.

Then again Cecil's actual character doesn't really change during the game and he just gets a different dressphere so I dunno if that's really the same thing.
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Well, all of his character development taking place before the game is basically the type of argument you're making here. Cecil is already that dude from the beginning of the game.

although I feel like using main protagonists as examples isn't the best idea here because their character development is usually what drives the plot forward

Side characters like Hope get their own arc, but their development rarely drives the plot.
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Like, to use another example of an oft-hated character who gets development to get past his flaws, would you really notice any difference in FFX if Wakka just wasn't a racist from the start? Probably not. He gets his own arc and he provides Tidus with valuable perspective on what the average Spiran's mindset is, but that flaw never really drives the plot at any point. It's just a flawed aspect of his character that he eventually works to get past, but he isn't really noticeably different after he does either (partly because he gets along with Rikku just fine beforehand since he doesn't know she's Al Bhed).
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Well I don't think he's supposed to be the same character from start to finish actually. I think it's just botched. Sorta like how Hope is botched.

I mean we can use Wakka instead if you think main characters are off limits. You can definitely still see aspects of things he mostly gets over from the earlier game in his later game reactions to events. Like you still know Wakka used to hate Al Bhed even if he's realizing that they're not all bad.

Lol I had this typed up BEFORE you posted that too.
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Well, I'm not going to defend Cecil's development or lack thereof since I don't really care that much about him. The change from Dark Knight to Paladin winds up being mostly symbolic. Hope just sort of ends up fading into the background once the entire party comes together because there's nothing more for him to do. Sazh largely does the same thing.

And yeah, you can still see signs of Wakka's development in how he interacts with Rikku at times, but the game wouldn't have been very different if it had never happened. The change in his attitude toward Yevon ends up being the most notable thing about him.
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Like uh, I don't have a script and don't want to look for one, but I know Wakka has a few gut responses where he's like still showing some racist first inclinations or remarks, or giving more benefits of a doubt to Yu Yevon related stuff even after they're finding that Yevon are jerkfaces.

They're just token lines or parts of lines and ultimately not important for the scenes, but they exist. They don't drive the plot but they are good callbacks to "yeah, this guy has changed over the game." Hope basically doesn't have these types of things. And there are ways you could do it without sending the plot off the rails whatsoever. Revenge isn't exactly a narrow theme. Just in how the party members regard Barthandelus you could have done something I think

Ultimately it doesn't change the plot of the game much if Wakka remains endgame Wakka the whole time, since he's a side character as you said, but it would make you say "well why is Wakka sorta acting with some restraint or hesitation here-- we never explored this." To me that kinda stuff is important as to whether character development is good. Hope you wouldn't get those kinda questions, cause you don't actually see any difference in his reactions and whatnot between him and what would be a "normal kid."
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i hate hope
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OlDirtyNumbers posted...

i hate hope

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I don't get hating characters who flaws, even ones like being racist.

These aren't your friends, they're characters! Representing real ideas and the human drama that unfolds is what's interesting not how much fun you'd have palling around with them. Not that you can't base a whole thing out of that, but it's not gonna move my SOUL
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nothing about Hope was "human"
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I don't mind flawed characters unless that flaw involves them being annoying on screen, of which Hope's does.

Algus and Wakka are flawed characters and they're awesome for it.
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pjbasis posted...

I don't get hating characters who flaws, even ones like being racist.

These aren't your friends, they're characters! Representing real ideas and the human drama that unfolds is what's interesting not how much fun you'd have palling around with them. Not that you can't base a whole thing out of that, but it's not gonna move my SOUL

Hope does drop off the map after his Snow hate gets revolved though. And his summon moment comes out of nowhere (Chapter 7's the only chapter without a summon since Hope gets all his real character development before they leave for Pulse but can't be stronger then the adults).
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Hope is crazy good in post game though

But lol that being a decisive factor for saving characters
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can leon just start the next round so we can stop talking about hope til next year
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Actually realized Hope is basically Ken Amada and got pissed
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I never played FFXIII, just don't like the generalized argument.
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yeap, another horrid character but at least one that's not so ugly
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I mean we've got multiple people praising characters who do it well while at the same time hating on Hope-- did you just wanna hit a strawman or what.
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I mean in the own game, Snow is pretty outwardly flawed but he comes off as more human. He's a character that I can actually see existing in real life.
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good to see jeff zero has my spot if a round goes up at 4am again

i almost waited up under the impression you always started before 2am. glad i didn't bother!
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VeryInsane posted...

Actually realized Hope is basically Ken Amada and got pissed

Woah woah Hope is way better than that obnoxious little shit called Ken

swordz9 posted...

VeryInsane posted...

Actually realized Hope is basically Ken Amada and got pissed

Woah woah Hope is way better than that obnoxious little shit called Ken

what
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swordz9 posted...

VeryInsane posted...

Actually realized Hope is basically Ken Amada and got pissed

Woah woah Hope is way better than that obnoxious little shit called Ken

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If Ken is Hope, can that mean Shinjiro is Snow? Because he sucks too.
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wtf mnk we're usually on the same side

Shinji's awesome, somebody call Ryoko here
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mnkboy907 posted...

If Ken is Hope, can that mean Shinjiro is Snow? Because he sucks too.

get out
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Snow and Shinji are great dammit

nope
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pretty much all of p3's playable cast is lame

bring it
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The Mana Sword posted...

pretty much all of p3's playable cast is lame

bring it

The best P3 character isn't playable, so I'll allow this
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Shinji > Aigis > Koromaru > well that's all I really need
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The Mana Sword posted...

pretty much all of p3's playable cast is lame

bring it

I think it's execution time

5's the one with the lame cast unfortunately. Was so immensely hyped only for them all to be like ok at best.

Mitsuru > Koromaru > Junpei > Akihiko > Aigis > Yukari > Fuuka > i dunno i'll just combine them into kenjiro and be done with it
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I should never be surprised you guys are so bad at this
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Hope from Gran Pulse chapter on is actually a pretty decent character. It just takes a bit.


Same thing as XIII the game funny enough
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Oh I'm late on the Hope talk oops
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