Poll of the Day > Finished Metroid Returns...it's... it's... ...it's... it's bad.

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Lokarin 09/18/17 6:59:10 PM #1:	It starts promising, with nostalgia cues and cool new moves (the melee counters being one of the best things they pulled from Other M)... but things started to get suspicious about 1/4 the way through the game. Lava zone? Start the Norfair music! Water zone? Start the Maridia music! That by itself felt kinda lazy, but not really crippling since there's not all that many songs in the original Metroid 2. It's themeing. Metroid Prime did it too, but it was a leap to 3D so you needed those connecting threads, and the arrangements that did things different were nice. In Metroid Prime 2 when you hear the Maridia music merely as the background of a different song - that's the right way. One of the things that was repetitive in the original Metroid 2, they fixed - the individual Metroid fights do have a fair bit of variety even between themselves. But here's where the problems start. What is the fun in a Metroid game? Finding things! This is where Metroid Returns ruins everything. Instead of going down a secret passage and finding an item as a reward for exploration... now they show you the item and say "fetch". There shouldn't be a point in the game where you say "oh, i'll get that item later"... IN A GAME ABOUT GETTING ITEMS #Sequelitis And the crippling sin that ruins this? Some of these items require late game equipment to get... yes, that happens in all Metroidvanias; The problem is that said items are, well, regular... like an ordinary missile tank. You shouldn't have to grab the last item in the game to go back to the middle of the game to get a regular missile you'll never use since the game is over. Furthermore, Metroid 2/Returns... does not have a connected world design. Metroid 2/Returns has a Stage based design... as such, you should never need something from a later stage to get things in an earlier one. Teleporting helps this, but it's a flaw in the system. But how is this exemplified? What is the criticial hit natural 20 to the dick for this game? ... Spoilers ~~The last item is the Metroid~~ and you need this item to get like 1/4 of the items in the game... the game is already over! You aren't exploring anymore, you're a janitor. And as an extra stab... ~~There's an additional extra final boss when you return to the ship, which is the first place you'll go after getting the Metroid~~ so if you DIDN'T save your game and didn't know this was coming... Guess what... you gotta do the last hour of gameplay ALL OVER AGAIN. --- "Salt cures Everything!" My YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/Nirakolov/videos <cite>Lokarin posted [p:886846667] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote>It starts promising, with nostalgia cues and cool new moves (the melee counters being one of the best things they pulled from Other M)... but things started to get suspicious about 1/4 the way through the game. Lava zone? Start the Norfair music! Water zone? Start the Maridia music! That by itself felt kinda lazy, but not really crippling since there's not all that many songs in the original Metroid 2. It's themeing. Metroid Prime did it too, but it was a leap to 3D so you needed those connecting threads, and the arrangements that did things different were nice. In Metroid Prime 2 when you hear the Maridia music merely as the background of a different song - that's the right way. One of the things that was repetitive in the original Metroid 2, they fixed - the individual Metroid fights do have a fair bit of variety even between themselves. But here's where the problems start. What is the fun in a Metroid game? Finding things! This is where Metroid Returns ruins everything. Instead of going down a secret passage and finding an item as a reward for exploration... now they show you the item and say "fetch". There shouldn't be a point in the game where you say "oh, i'll get that item later"... IN A GAME ABOUT GETTING ITEMS #Sequelitis And the crippling sin that ruins this? Some of these items require late game equipment to get... yes, that happens in all Metroidvanias; The problem is that said items are, well, regular... like an ordinary missile tank. You shouldn't have to grab the last item in the game to go back to the middle of the game to get a regular missile you'll never use since the game is over. Furthermore, Metroid 2/Returns... does not have a connected world design. Metroid 2/Returns has a Stage based design... as such, you should never need something from a later stage to get things in an earlier one. Teleporting helps this, but it's a flaw in the system. But how is this exemplified? What is the criticial hit natural 20 to the dick for this game? ... Spoilers The last item is the Metroid and you need this item to get like 1/4 of the items in the game... the game is already over! You aren't exploring anymore, you're a janitor. And as an extra stab... There's an additional extra final boss when you return to the ship, which is the first place you'll go after getting the Metroid so if you DIDN'T save your game and didn't know this was coming... Guess what... you gotta do the last hour of gameplay ALL OVER AGAIN.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Nichtcrawler X 09/18/17 7:08:35 PM #2:	Lokarin posted... And the crippling sin that ruins this? Some of these items require late game equipment to get... yes, that happens in all Metroidvanias; The problem is that said items are, well, regular... like an ordinary missile tank. You shouldn't have to grab the last item in the game to go back to the middle of the game to get a regular missile you'll never use since the game is over. Furthermore, Metroid 2/Returns... does not have a connected world design. Metroid 2/Returns has a Stage based design... as such, you should never need something from a later stage to get things in an earlier one. Teleporting helps this, but it's a flaw in the system. 100%ing always requires backtracking a Metroidvania, it is one of the defining attributes, even for "basic" items or collectibles that are useless. --- Official Teetotaller of PotD Dovie'andi se tovya sagain! <cite>Nichtcrawler X posted [p:886847170] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote><cite>Lokarin posted...</cite> <quote> And the crippling sin that ruins this? Some of these items require late game equipment to get... yes, that happens in all Metroidvanias; The problem is that said items are, well, regular... like an ordinary missile tank. You shouldn't have to grab the last item in the game to go back to the middle of the game to get a regular missile you'll never use since the game is over. Furthermore, Metroid 2/Returns... does not have a connected world design. Metroid 2/Returns has a Stage based design... as such, you should never need something from a later stage to get things in an earlier one. Teleporting helps this, but it's a flaw in the system.</quote> 100%ing always requires backtracking a Metroidvania, it is one of the defining attributes, even for "basic" items or collectibles that are useless.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Sahuagin 09/18/17 7:21:44 PM #3:	Lokarin posted... You shouldn't have to grab the last item in the game to go back to the middle of the game to get a regular missile you'll never use since the game is over. I think it depends. What you want is to return to level 1 and have it be an almost completely different level/experience because of the new tools you have with which to explore it. What you don't want is to return to level 1 and have it be 99% identical to the first time you were there, including solving all of the exact same problems you already solved, only to open a single extra door to a single otherwise empty room to retrieve exactly 1 item that you already have 120 of, just so you get 100% instead of 99% at the end of the game. --- *The truth basks in scrutiny.* http://i.imgur.com/GMouTGs.jpg http://projecteuler.net/profile/Sahuagin.png <cite>Sahuagin posted [p:886847956] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote><cite>Lokarin posted...</cite> <quote>You shouldn't have to grab the last item in the game to go back to the middle of the game to get a regular missile you'll never use since the game is over.</quote> I think it depends. What you want is to return to level 1 and have it be an almost completely different level/experience because of the new tools you have with which to explore it. What you don't want is to return to level 1 and have it be 99% identical to the first time you were there, including solving all of the exact same problems you already solved, only to open a single extra door to a single otherwise empty room to retrieve exactly 1 item that you already have 120 of, just so you get 100% instead of 99% at the end of the game.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
darkknight109 09/18/17 7:25:30 PM #4:	Lokarin posted... And the crippling sin that ruins this? Some of these items require late game equipment to get... yes, that happens in all Metroidvanias; The problem is that said items are, well, regular... like an ordinary missile tank. You shouldn't have to grab the last item in the game to go back to the middle of the game to get a regular missile you'll never use since the game is over. Have you never played a Metroidvania game before? --- Kill 1 man: You are a murderer. Kill 10 men: You are a monster. Kill 100 men: You are a hero. Kill 10,000 men, you are a conqueror! <cite>darkknight109 posted [p:886848151] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote><cite>Lokarin posted...</cite> <quote>And the crippling sin that ruins this? Some of these items require late game equipment to get... yes, that happens in all Metroidvanias; The problem is that said items are, well, regular... like an ordinary missile tank. You shouldn't have to grab the last item in the game to go back to the middle of the game to get a regular missile you'll never use since the game is over. </quote> Have you never played a Metroidvania game before?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Raganork 09/18/17 7:37:58 PM #5:	My suspicion of this game since Day 1 was the seeming emphasis on combat rather than exploration. From several accounts I've read, it seems like enemies aggro more aggressively than in other Metroid games, and most combat encounters are designed around the parry mechanic, which slows the pacing of the game. I always enjoyed my Metroidvanias with snappy pacing and fun movement options; combat was never the selling point for me. It also suffers from the same bullshit controls that Mirror of Fate had: movement is controlled by the circle pad, and you cannot change that. But hey, I didn't play the game, so my opinion doesn't really mean much. <cite>Raganork posted [p:886848862] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote>My suspicion of this game since Day 1 was the seeming emphasis on combat rather than exploration. From several accounts I've read, it seems like enemies aggro more aggressively than in other Metroid games, and most combat encounters are designed around the parry mechanic, which slows the pacing of the game. I always enjoyed my Metroidvanias with snappy pacing and fun movement options; combat was never the selling point for me. It also suffers from the same bullshit controls that Mirror of Fate had: movement is controlled by the circle pad, and you cannot change that. But hey, I didn't play the game, so my opinion doesn't really mean much.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lokarin 09/18/17 7:43:09 PM #6:	darkknight109 posted... Have you never played a Metroidvania game before? Nichtcrawler X posted... 100%ing always requires backtracking a Metroidvania, it is one of the defining attributes, even for "basic" items or collectibles that are useless. Yes, I love metroidvanias. The problem is that the stage based design doesn't compliment backtracking. --- "Salt cures Everything!" My YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/Nirakolov/videos <cite>Lokarin posted [p:886849157] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote><cite>darkknight109 posted...</cite> <quote>Have you never played a Metroidvania game before?</quote> <cite>Nichtcrawler X posted...</cite> <quote>100%ing always requires backtracking a Metroidvania, it is one of the defining attributes, even for "basic" items or collectibles that are useless.</quote> Yes, I love metroidvanias. The problem is that the stage based design doesn't compliment backtracking.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tropic_Sunset 09/18/17 7:46:37 PM #7:	darkknight109 posted... Lokarin posted... And the crippling sin that ruins this? Some of these items require late game equipment to get... yes, that happens in all Metroidvanias; The problem is that said items are, well, regular... like an ordinary missile tank. You shouldn't have to grab the last item in the game to go back to the middle of the game to get a regular missile you'll never use since the game is over. Have you never played a Metroidvania game before? Lokarin posted... Yes, I love metroidvanias. The problem is that the stage based design doesn't compliment backtracking. Stage-based how? As in, the world is designed linearly so you have to go back through every single room to get to the item? --- "Nostalgia is a hell of a drug." -Magus 10 <cite>Tropic_Sunset posted [p:886849358] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote><cite>darkknight109 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Lokarin posted...</cite> <quote>And the crippling sin that ruins this? Some of these items require late game equipment to get... yes, that happens in all Metroidvanias; The problem is that said items are, well, regular... like an ordinary missile tank. You shouldn't have to grab the last item in the game to go back to the middle of the game to get a regular missile you'll never use since the game is over. </quote> Have you never played a Metroidvania game before?</quote> <cite>Lokarin posted...</cite> <quote>Yes, I love metroidvanias. The problem is that the stage based design doesn't compliment backtracking.</quote> Stage-based how? As in, the world is designed linearly so you have to go back through every single room to get to the item?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lokarin 09/18/17 7:49:12 PM #8:	Tropic_Sunset posted... Stage-based how? As in, the world is designed linearly so you have to go back through every single room to get to the item? Metroid 2 is stage based: You kill X amount of metroids and the acid lowers so you can move to the next area. Each sub-area is a discrete environment. Think Super Mario 3/World. Now imagine if you needed a Frog suit to get an item in world 1. --- "Salt cures Everything!" My YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/Nirakolov/videos <cite>Lokarin posted [p:886849490] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote><cite>Tropic_Sunset posted...</cite> <quote>Stage-based how? As in, the world is designed linearly so you have to go back through every single room to get to the item?</quote> Metroid 2 is stage based: You kill X amount of metroids and the acid lowers so you can move to the next area. Each sub-area is a discrete environment. Think Super Mario 3/World. Now imagine if you needed a Frog suit to get an item in world 1.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lokarin 09/18/17 7:56:16 PM #9:	Nichtcrawler X posted... 100%ing always requires backtracking a Metroidvania For some context. In Super Metroid once you have some super missiles and some power bombs... you can get every item in the game. In Metroid 2 original, some items do require new items to get, but they're always self-contained to their stage. (there are no Spider Ball items before Spider Ball) In the remake, there are countless items hidden behind screw attack/power bomb/super missile/Aeion/frozen crystal blocks at all points in the game. And because the item proper is in plain sight, there's no joy in going after it. --- "Salt cures Everything!" My YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/Nirakolov/videos <cite>Lokarin posted [p:886849879] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote><cite>Nichtcrawler X posted...</cite> <quote>100%ing always requires backtracking a Metroidvania</quote> For some context. In Super Metroid once you have some super missiles and some power bombs... you can get every item in the game. In Metroid 2 original, some items do require new items to get, but they're always self-contained to their stage. (there are no Spider Ball items before Spider Ball) In the remake, there are countless items hidden behind screw attack/power bomb/super missile/Aeion/frozen crystal blocks at all points in the game. And because the item proper is in plain sight, there's no joy in going after it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
KogaSteelfang 09/18/17 8:02:55 PM #10:	I'm at the very end, and have been exploring the older areas for extra items. It does seem like a waste to get so many missile tanks at that point. Still, I found it to be a really enjoyable game. Unless the ending ruins it somehow. --- What did the pirate say on his 80th birthday? Aye Matey! <cite>KogaSteelfang posted [p:886850250] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote>I'm at the very end, and have been exploring the older areas for extra items. It does seem like a waste to get so many missile tanks at that point. Still, I found it to be a really enjoyable game. Unless the ending ruins it somehow.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lokarin 09/18/17 8:03:53 PM #11:	KogaSteelfang posted... Still, I found it to be a really enjoyable game Oh ya, the core gameplay is still very solid - I should have clarified that it's a subpar Metroid, not a subpar game. --- "Salt cures Everything!" My YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/Nirakolov/videos <cite>Lokarin posted [p:886850321] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote><cite>KogaSteelfang posted...</cite> <quote>Still, I found it to be a really enjoyable game</quote> Oh ya, the core gameplay is still very solid - I should have clarified that it's a subpar Metroid, not a subpar game.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
I_Abibde 09/18/17 8:15:32 PM #12:	I still give AM2R the edge, but SR is enjoyable on its own, IMO. I actually like the challenge of the boss fights. --- -- I Abibde / Samuraiter Laughing at Game FAQs since 2002. <cite>I_Abibde posted [p:886850957] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote>I still give AM2R the edge, but SR is enjoyable on its own, IMO. I actually like the challenge of the boss fights.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Metal_Mario99 09/18/17 9:12:28 PM #13:	Her name isn't Metroid, bro. --- The GameFAQs mods are terrible at their job. <cite>Metal_Mario99 posted [p:886854326] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote>Her name isn't Metroid, bro.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
OmegaM 09/20/17 1:37:10 PM #14:	Lokarin posted... Instead of going down a secret passage and finding an item as a reward for exploration... now they show you the item and say "fetch". When I heard that Zero Mission and Fusion did this, I thought it would make the games too easy, but I found it was still sufficiently non-obvious how to get to the goal spots that show up on your map. Obviously, if those goal spots weren't there, the games would've been harder, but maybe only by having more aimless wandering. <cite>OmegaM posted [p:886957741] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote><cite>Lokarin posted...</cite> <quote> Instead of going down a secret passage and finding an item as a reward for exploration... now they show you the item and say "fetch". </quote> When I heard that Zero Mission and Fusion did this, I thought it would make the games too easy, but I found it was still sufficiently non-obvious how to get to the goal spots that show up on your map. Obviously, if those goal spots weren't there, the games would've been harder, but maybe only by having more aimless wandering.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ernieforss 09/20/17 1:58:15 PM #15:	but metriod 2 didn't have back tracking. the only "backtracking" was going to the point where the lava goes down again. you never have to go to previous area once you are in the new area. My biggest grip( and i said this in other post) was that parrying system. It's cool.... but every enemy charges you once you see them. Just parry the enemy and then shoot them. It slows down the gameplay alot, because instead of running and gunning like other metriods games, you stop, or inch towards them, wait for the charge attack(because your shots are meaningless) parry and then kill them in one hit. --- I'm always 50% right all the time <cite>ernieforss posted [p:886958945] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote>but metriod 2 didn't have back tracking. the only "backtracking" was going to the point where the lava goes down again. you never have to go to previous area once you are in the new area. My biggest grip( and i said this in other post) was that parrying system. It's cool.... but every enemy charges you once you see them. Just parry the enemy and then shoot them. It slows down the gameplay alot, because instead of running and gunning like other metriods games, you stop, or inch towards them, wait for the charge attack(because your shots are meaningless) parry and then kill them in one hit.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ZiggiStardust 09/20/17 1:59:11 PM #16:	lok, you're a subpar human being, ok? --- http://www.twitch.tv/agenttrav <cite>ZiggiStardust posted [p:886958993] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote>lok, you're a subpar human being, ok?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ernieforss 09/20/17 2:14:19 PM #18:	you have to get 100% to beat a metriodvaina game? i remember beating super metriod with about 70%. and i was like "what? i missed 30% of the game!! this game is incredible. i need to master my skills and go back and play it again." (then i found out it was just missing missles and such. which kind of sucks). Forcing you to get 100% in your first run makes replay and excitement to return not vaild. If already beat it 100% why replay it right after i beat it. It's one of the reason i hated metriod prime. I was forced to find those hidden artifacts to open the door to the last boss. i beat all the bosses , i went to every stage and got every ablity in the game the door should have been open, and i should have been able to beat the game and get a bad ending. I would be like "woah! there is another ending if i find those artifacts. i need to get them." But instead it took me another 5 hours of running around trying to figure out where the artifacts are and how to get them in each area. --- I'm always 50% right all the time <cite>ernieforss posted [p:886959865] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote>you have to get 100% to beat a metriodvaina game? i remember beating super metriod with about 70%. and i was like "what? i missed 30% of the game!! this game is incredible. i need to master my skills and go back and play it again." (then i found out it was just missing missles and such. which kind of sucks). Forcing you to get 100% in your first run makes replay and excitement to return not vaild. If already beat it 100% why replay it right after i beat it. It's one of the reason i hated metriod prime. I was forced to find those hidden artifacts to open the door to the last boss. i beat all the bosses , i went to every stage and got every ablity in the game the door should have been open, and i should have been able to beat the game and get a bad ending. I would be like "woah! there is another ending if i find those artifacts. i need to get them." But instead it took me another 5 hours of running around trying to figure out where the artifacts are and how to get them in each area.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lokarin 09/20/17 6:28:31 PM #19:	ernieforss posted... you have to get 100% to beat a metriodvaina game? i remember beating super metriod with about 70%. and i was like "what? i missed 30% of the game!! this game is incredible. i need to master my skills and go back and play it again." (then i found out it was just missing missles and such. which kind of sucks). Forcing you to get 100% in your first run makes replay and excitement to return not vaild. If already beat it 100% why replay it right after i beat it. It's one of the reason i hated metriod prime. I was forced to find those hidden artifacts to open the door to the last boss. i beat all the bosses , i went to every stage and got every ablity in the game the door should have been open, and i should have been able to beat the game and get a bad ending. I would be like "woah! there is another ending if i find those artifacts. i need to get them." But instead it took me another 5 hours of running around trying to figure out where the artifacts are and how to get them in each area. Ya, i am currently replaying the game on Hard Mode and am finding it a lot better this time around. I think the problem is that the post-game clean up bittered my experience --- "Salt cures Everything!" My YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/Nirakolov/videos <cite>Lokarin posted [p:886974223] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote><cite>ernieforss posted...</cite> <quote>you have to get 100% to beat a metriodvaina game? i remember beating super metriod with about 70%. and i was like "what? i missed 30% of the game!! this game is incredible. i need to master my skills and go back and play it again." (then i found out it was just missing missles and such. which kind of sucks). Forcing you to get 100% in your first run makes replay and excitement to return not vaild. If already beat it 100% why replay it right after i beat it. It's one of the reason i hated metriod prime. I was forced to find those hidden artifacts to open the door to the last boss. i beat all the bosses , i went to every stage and got every ablity in the game the door should have been open, and i should have been able to beat the game and get a bad ending. I would be like "woah! there is another ending if i find those artifacts. i need to get them." But instead it took me another 5 hours of running around trying to figure out where the artifacts are and how to get them in each area.</quote> Ya, i am currently replaying the game on Hard Mode and am finding it a lot better this time around. I think the problem is that the post-game clean up bittered my experience</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ZiggiStardust 09/21/17 11:27:20 AM #20:	Lokarin posted... I think the problem is that the post-game clean up bittered my experience oh you mean the completely optional stuff that you don't have to do at all? i didn't want to clean the dog poop, it wasn't even my dog, but i cleaned it anyways... it really bittered my walk ...is essentially what you're saying. --- http://www.twitch.tv/agenttrav <cite>ZiggiStardust posted [p:887013519] in Finished M... [t:75789285]...</cite> <quote><cite>Lokarin posted...</cite> <quote>I think the problem is that the post-game clean up bittered my experience</quote> oh you mean the completely optional stuff that you don't have to do at all? i didn't want to clean the dog poop, it wasn't even my dog, but i cleaned it anyways... it really bittered my walk ...is essentially what you're saying.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Poll of the Day > Finished Metroid Returns...it's... it's... ...it's... it's bad. (+) Yeah! (+)

Poll of the Day > Finished Metroid Returns...it's... it's... ...it's... it's bad.