Poll of the Day > Do you consider the disability, ssi system in the u.s. to be fair?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Zeus posted...

Given how easy it is to get on the dole, it's more than fair.

where did you get this idea? read wah's previous post. Many times it's very difficult
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yeah shit really sucks for my friend to he often talks about missing being able to work, before he got injured he had a job where he made 2000 a month and then disability gives him a measly 700 a month, he was just unfortunate in the fact he was unemployed when he got hurt.
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Rasmoh posted...

Unsustainable. Such a thing is impossible when society has no desire to "trim the fat".

Obviously. That's why socialist states are destined to fail.
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Jen0125 posted...

"indisputable fact impossible to quantify" okay

It's true though. The government puts almost no effort into weeding out people who abuse the system and they sure as shit don't do studies to find out how many people abuse it.

Are you really going to sit there and tell me people don't abuse the system?

wah_wah_wah posted...

Most have to go before a judge and have extensive medical paperwork proving their disability.

And it's very easy to go to a doctor and repeatedly tell them you have back or knee pain and nothing fixes it. My ex-stepdad did that, he just told doctors that he had nerve pain in his hands and used that diagnosis to collect disability.
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you ex stepdad could almost certainly have made more working full time than collecting disability anyway
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UT1999 posted...

you ex stepdad could almost certainly have made more working full time than collecting disability anyway

So? Most people could make more money working than not working. But why do that when you can sit on your ass, drink beer, and watch TV all day long at the expense of others?
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Rasmoh posted...

There is very little vetting done to ensure that these people are, in fact, disabled. Non-specific back or knee pain, fibromyalgia, agoraphobia, social anxiety disorder, autism, etc. While there are people who do genuinely suffer from things like this, they are also very easy conditions to fake and there's essentially nothing done to stop it.

Just out of curiosity how do you propose they stop folk from making up these things? I mean even more so mental disorders such as anxiety that can't be proved if you have it or not.

Zeus posted...

Given how easy it is to get on the dole, it's more than fair.

Not sure how the system is over in the states but I see these things said about our system too. You'll be surprised how difficult it can actually be.
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UT1999 posted...

Zeus posted...

Given how easy it is to get on the dole, it's more than fair.

where did you get this idea? read wah's previous post. Many times it's very difficult

The problem with that claim is that even left-leaning sources like NPR and The Week have demonstrated the opposite:

http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/

In the past three decades, the number of Americans who are on disability has skyrocketed. The rise has come even as medical advances have allowed many more people to remain on the job, and new laws have banned workplace discrimination against the disabled. Every month, 14 million people now get a disability check from the government.

The federal government spends more money each year on cash payments for disabled former workers than it spends on food stamps and welfare combined. Yet people relying on disability payments are often overlooked in discussions of the social safety net. The vast majority of people on federal disability do not work.[1] Yet because they are not technically part of the labor force, they are not counted among the unemployed.

It's worth noting that it was one way Bill Clinton "solved" unemployment, by shifting the unemployed to disability. And a lot of states are incentavized to push their citizens onto disability because it's a federal program vs a state one.

Oh, as for the "difficulty"...

Sonny Ryan, a retired judge in town, didn't hear disability cases in his courtroom. But the subject came up often. He described one exchange he had with a man who was on disability but looked healthy.

"Just out of curiosity, what is your disability?" the judge asked from the bench.
"I have high blood pressure," the man said.
"So do I," the judge said. "What else?"
"I have diabetes."
"So do I."

There's no diagnosis called disability. You don't go to the doctor and the doctor says, "We've run the tests and it looks like you have disability." It's squishy enough that you can end up with one person with high blood pressure who is labeled disabled and another who is not.

wwinterj25 posted...

Not sure how the system is over in the states but I see these things said about out system too. You'll be surprised how difficult it can actually be.

Canada or the UK? I really need to tag you with country because I can never remember.
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Zeus posted...

Canada or the UK? I really need to tag you with country because I can never remember.

UK man.
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*doesn't read rest of the topic*

To ask if the systems are fair isn't the right question, as they inherently unfair. Someone is getting assistance, and someone is not - and likely will never be able to. The better question is to ask if you feel they are working. Do they do more harm than good? Should they even exist?

Disability in particular is a fickle one, as I'm not at all comfortable with leaving genuinely disabled people out in the cold. I'm perfectly fine with my taxes going to support the people who can't work. However, it doesn't take much google-fu to look up countless stories of people being on disability that shouldn't be. Should the restrictions be tightened so much that we end up keeping out actual disabled people to make sure the frauds aren't getting through? That's a tougher question to answer.

My favourite story that I heard is my family doc is on the workers' compensation board (or was rather, as he's retiring in a month or two) which handles cases of people being hurt at work. He said he was at the Dragon Boat Races one year and saw one of his patients competing in it, even though he was off work due to a back injury. The fraud investigation people were informed right away, and things didn't go well for that guy.
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It is fair for those that need it, but there do need to be systems in place to periodically investigate and ensure individuals aren't taking advantage of the program.
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Dynalo posted...

*doesn't read rest of the topic*

To ask if the systems are fair isn't the right question, as they inherently unfair. Someone is getting assistance, and someone is not - and likely will never be able to. The better question is to ask if you feel they are working. Do they do more harm than good? Should they even exist?

Disability in particular is a fickle one, as I'm not at all comfortable with leaving genuinely disabled people out in the cold. I'm perfectly fine with my taxes going to support the people who can't work. However, it doesn't take much google-fu to look up countless stories of people being on disability that shouldn't be. Should the restrictions be tightened so much that we end up keeping out actual disabled people to make sure the frauds aren't getting through? That's a tougher question to answer.

My favourite story that I heard is my family doc is on the workers' compensation board (or was rather, as he's retiring in a month or two) which handles cases of people being hurt at work. He said he was at the Dragon Boat Races one year and saw one of his patients competing in it, even though he was off work due to a back injury. The fraud investigation people were informed right away, and things didn't go well for that guy.

what about cases where people are capable of doing things just not for prolonged periods of time. like more than a hour or two and they are in pain and misery the rest of the day? just tell them to suck it up? or never do physical activity again?
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mooreandrew58 posted...

what about cases where people are capable of doing things just not for prolonged periods of time. like more than a hour or two and they are in pain and misery the rest of the day? just tell them to suck it up? or never do physical activity again?

I can't think of any examples where the degree of that would be relevant from a working perspective. I doubt there's someone out there capable of working their physically demanding job for "1 or 2 hours" and then not being able to work for the rest of the day. You're either fit to work, or you're not. The jobs that can will usually accommodate you if the request is reasonable (eg, you can't stand for long periods of time, so they give you a chair to sit in while you work).

If you're commenting on the anecdote about the guy being busted for dragon boat racing... That's an extremely demanding sport, and there's no way in hell anyone with severe enough back problems that they can't work could possibly even consider doing it. Disability doesn't mean you can't be out getting exercise, but if the exercise is something that would be theoretically impossible with your condition, you better be prepared to answer some questions.
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Dynalo posted...

mooreandrew58 posted...

what about cases where people are capable of doing things just not for prolonged periods of time. like more than a hour or two and they are in pain and misery the rest of the day? just tell them to suck it up? or never do physical activity again?

I can't think of any examples where the degree of that would be relevant from a working perspective. I doubt there's someone out there capable of working their physically demanding job for "1 or 2 hours" and then not being able to work for the rest of the day. You're either fit to work, or you're not.

If you're commenting on the anecdote about the guy being busted for dragon boat racing... That's an extremely demanding sport, and there's no way in hell anyone with severe enough back problems that they can't work could possibly even consider doing it. Disability doesn't mean you can't be out getting exercise, but if the exercise is something that would be theoretically impossible with your condition, you better be prepared to answer some questions.

I meant something similar just like having a hobby that involves physical activity or they just like to exercise to stay healthy. or say just doing things around the house like yard work. but doing something for 8-12 hours would just wreck them.

and it is possible, like having a really bad knee or some shit, after so many hours it just starts hurting beyond what they are capable of dealing with. you have to consider to that you can't simply expect a person to be able to magically change careers because of their issues, not with every fucking thing wanting a college degree these days. for a decent paying job at least.

that is what my mother is trying though shes been told she qualifies for disability but shes trying to tough out her job for 1 year then she'll qualify for a desk job there, it'll be a slight pay cut, but she'd rather work then sit at home and do nothing all day.
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