Current Events > I got banned from the Late Stage Capitalism subreddit.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Because I explained how the prison firefighter program is one of the few programs in our prisons that's actually legitimately good and helpful.

Banned for slavery apologia.

What.
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that's the full context
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Seems legit, considering the sub.
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I can see why given the context of that forum, they might assume you're setting up a troll, or trying to justify the existence of a system which, with your noted exception, basically exploits human labor. It's quite possible they overreacted. However, we see troll topics start in similar fashions on CE daily. So the real question there is trust. Perhaps if the forum knew you they'd be more willing to trust you and give your caveat the benefit of the doubt. Getting that trust though is a tall order, especially at our current tribalism levels.
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I'm not seeing the downside here
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Some subreddits are like that.

I once got banned from the humor subreddit because I posted a video of myself doing a funny poem. It got 75 upvotes within the first couple of hours but I got banned for spamming even though I rarely posted on that subreddit
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Makes sense, considering the sub

Also just considering it's an awful opinion
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hollow_shrine posted...

I can see why given the context of that forum, they might assume you're setting up a troll, or trying to justify the existence of a system which, with your noted exception, basically exploits human labor. It's quite possible they overreacted. However, we see troll topics start in similar fashions on CE daily. So the real question there is trust. Perhaps if the forum knew you they'd be more willing to trust you and give your caveat the benefit of the doubt. Getting that trust though is a tall order, especially at our current tribalism levels.

This is a very insightful post.

It describes politics to a t, too. Everything is about the social capital you build among different communities, which is only distantly related to the things you say
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Balrog0 posted...

Also just considering it's an awful opinion

But it isn't.

Up!

until you realize that crime only exists because of capitalism and that communism would be a peaceful society void of prisons
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I'm not sure how the inmate firefighter program works - how is it any different from other prison labour?
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averagejoel posted...

I'm not sure how the inmate firefighter program works - how is it any different from other prison labour?

It's prison labor but in life endangering situations at a dollar an hour in California and no other states that I'm aware of
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gunplagirl posted...

averagejoel posted...

I'm not sure how the inmate firefighter program works - how is it any different from other prison labour?

It's prison labor but in life endangering situations at a dollar an hour in California and no other states that I'm aware of

It's a volunteer program, gets $2 an hour(low, but still higher than any other prison job), less dangerous than typical firefighter work, gives them better housing and time off their sentence, gives them job skills and letters of recommendation that help them get work and reduce recidivism, and is done across the east coast and highly appreciated by firefighters and inmates alike.

"Hey what if we paid prison people LESS THAN MINIMUM to do jobs because we give them better conditions than the prisons which have such terrible conditions that it's intellectually dishonest to say something is better than it because most everything has better conditions? You know, because rather than paying for programs like Europe has to aid in reducing repeat offenses, we can make it so only the ones who are really good and unlikely to repeat can get the resources needed to avoid coming back?"

The only benefits that this has is because it gives something when all our prison systems are designed to do is take. Take time and labor for nearly free. Prisons should by default work towards helping make sure prisoners get rehabilitated. Instead, we have things so twisted that people think paying them for practically slave labor is somehow a good program.
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well? the PIC is modern slavery

gunplagirl posted...

"Hey what if we paid prison people LESS THAN MINIMUM to do jobs because we give them better conditions than the prisons which have such terrible conditions that it's intellectually dishonest to say something is better than it because most everything has better conditions? You know, because rather than paying for programs like Europe has to aid in reducing repeat offenses, we can make it so only the ones who are really good and unlikely to repeat can get the resources needed to avoid coming back?"

The only benefits that this has is because it gives something when all our prison systems are designed to do is take. Take time and labor for nearly free. Prisons should by default work towards helping make sure prisoners get rehabilitated. Instead, we have things so twisted that people think paying them for practically slave labor is somehow a good program.

Yes, things are fucked up. Yes, the program is only great in comparison to the rest of the system.

But shouldn't you be complaining about the system then, and not attacking one of the few functional parts of it?

CatFAQS posted...

well? the PIC is modern slavery

It is, but I wasn't defending the system in general, only one particular part of it.

It's NOT a good system though. It abuses the fact that basically

"Walk down a street covered in feces whilebarefoot"
Or
"Walk up a hill covered in broken glass while barefoot"

Obviously one is preferable but they're still total bs. It exploits vulnerable people. And in conjunction with the millions of lives destroyed by the systemic targeting of people of color and nonviolent drug charges, no less. It's fair to say that it's modernized slavery.

So yes, I'll criticize the system.

The closest thing to a good part of the justice system is that an attorney will be provided if you can't afford one. But even then, those public defenders get so backed up that it only leads to there being plenty more trials that last for years on end between all the delays.
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OctilIery posted...

But shouldn't you be complaining about the system then, and not attacking one of the few functional parts of it?

it's not a functional part of it just because it's better than the rest

it's basically a way to screw both inmates and firefighters while pretending you're helping both

I am very, very concerned about the very dangerous incentives it places into the prison system. There's a reason you've seen a few recent California AG's complaining there aren't enough prisoners. It's the same problem as having private prisons, imo
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Its almost like insular social communities are unhealthy hive minds!?!?...
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Balrog0 posted...

it's basically a way to screw both inmates and firefighters while pretending you're helping both

It helps inmates and it helps firefighters. Thus why both are generally extremely happy about the system.

And while the incentives of prison labor are dangerous, they don't apply to this. This is a situational program used in emergencies to help fight wildfires, and it isn't taking jobs from anyone because there simply aren't enough firefighters as is, and many working the wildfires are volunteering.

OctilIery posted...

It helps inmates and it helps firefighters. Thus why both are generally extremely happy about the system.

OctilIery posted...

And while the incentives of prison labor are dangerous, they don't apply to this. This is a situational program used in emergencies to help fight wildfires, and it isn't taking jobs from anyone because there simply aren't enough firefighters as is, and many working the wildfires are volunteering.

yeah, exactly, it's a way to undercut the actual need for firefighters and pay/hire less of them while pretending it's a net good for society

I bet firefighters would be more happy to get expanded benefits and more help that is compensated at a fair wage.

it absolutely applies in this situation. pretending it's voluntary is stupid when the people there aren't allowed to pursue any jobs that pay more than $2/hr or, you know, leave the facility otherwise.
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Balrog0 posted...

OctilIery posted...

It helps inmates and it helps firefighters. Thus why both are generally extremely happy about the system.

OctilIery posted...

And while the incentives of prison labor are dangerous, they don't apply to this. This is a situational program used in emergencies to help fight wildfires, and it isn't taking jobs from anyone because there simply aren't enough firefighters as is, and many working the wildfires are volunteering.

yeah, exactly, it's a way to undercut the actual need for firefighters and pay/hire less of them while pretending it's a net good for society

I bet firefighters would be more happy to get expanded benefits and more help that is compensated at a fair wage.

it absolutely applies in this situation. pretending it's voluntary is stupid when the people there aren't allowed to pursue any jobs that pay more than $2/hr or, you know, leave the facility otherwise.

Not pretending it's voluntary. They have to apply and work towards acceptance. That makes it voluntary.

And no, they aren't taking advantage of firefighters. You don't seem to understand the situation - it isn't that they don't hire enough, it's that there aren't enough qualified applicants to fight these massive blazes. You keep talking about how "Oh, they just don't want to pay them" when most of the firefighters there are volunteering, and the limiting factor is far more likely to be equipment than bodies.

They aren't taking anyone's jobs, they're pitching in to help in emergencies.

OctilIery posted...

Not pretending it's voluntary. They have to apply and work towards acceptance. That makes it voluntary.

And no, they aren't taking advantage of firefighters. You don't seem to understand the situation - it isn't that they don't hire enough, it's that there aren't enough qualified applicants to fight these massive blazes. You keep talking about how "Oh, they just don't want to pay them" when most of the firefighters there are volunteering, and the limiting factor is far more likely to be equipment than bodies.

They aren't taking anyone's jobs, they're pitching in to help in emergencies.

it seems pretty clear to me that they're being exploited
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OctilIery posted...

Not pretending it's voluntary. They have to apply and work towards acceptance. That makes it voluntary.

are you fuckin kidding me dude? you just talked past what I said. how many would be doing it if they weren't incarcerated?

OctilIery posted...

And no, they aren't taking advantage of firefighters. You don't seem to understand the situation - it isn't that they don't hire enough, it's that there aren't enough qualified applicants to fight these massive blazes. You keep talking about how "Oh, they just don't want to pay them" when most of the firefighters there are volunteering, and the limiting factor is far more likely to be equipment than bodies.

No qualified applicants except inmates who only apply because they have no real alternatives. Sounds like an investment in firefighters and firefighting equipment is in order, but is being deferred due to the available slave labor. Exactly what I'm talking about.

OctilIery posted...

They aren't taking anyone's jobs, they're pitching in to help in emergencies.

It's not about dey terk er jerbs, it's the lack of public investment in a state that really needs to invest more in fighting fires.

averagejoel posted...

it seems pretty clear to me that they're being exploited

because they absolutely are
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metralo posted...

until you realize that crime only exists because of capitalism and that communism would be a peaceful society void of prisons

Lmao, wut? There's no way you're not trolling.
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Balrog0 posted...

It's not about dey terk er jerbs, it's the lack of public investment in a state that really needs to invest more in fighting fires.

So, how would you propose they invest in that? Given that it's something that's only needed for a very small portion of the year?

averagejoel posted...

OctilIery posted...

Not pretending it's voluntary. They have to apply and work towards acceptance. That makes it voluntary.

And no, they aren't taking advantage of firefighters. You don't seem to understand the situation - it isn't that they don't hire enough, it's that there aren't enough qualified applicants to fight these massive blazes. You keep talking about how "Oh, they just don't want to pay them" when most of the firefighters there are volunteering, and the limiting factor is far more likely to be equipment than bodies.

They aren't taking anyone's jobs, they're pitching in to help in emergencies.

it seems pretty clear to me that they're being exploited

Except they aren't. They should be given a better wage, but other than that, this is a program that would be good even in a good prison system.

Balrog0 posted...

No qualified applicants except inmates who only apply because they have no real alternatives. Sounds like an investment in firefighters and firefighting equipment is in order, but is being deferred due to the available slave labor. Exactly what I'm talking about.

They invest quite a bit in firefighters. This isn't something they can just throw more money at.

OctilIery posted...

So, how would you propose they invest in that? Given that it's something that's only needed for a very small portion of the year?

spend more on firefighters

OctilIery posted...

They invest quite a bit in firefighters. This isn't something they can just throw more money at.

I mean, California has one of the highest salaries for firefighters, but not in comparison to the cost of living. They also have fewer firefighters per capita (or per job) than many other states, most of which have less of a need for firefighters than California -- 1.88 per 1000 jobs in Calif. vs 2.91 per 1000 jobs in Illinois, for instance.

Unlike these other states, they also allow prisoners to work as firefighters. What do you think that implies?
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simply bringing california into parity with illinois would increase the number of firefighters in california from around 30k to more than 52k

how many of these prisoners volunteer every year? Ill check if you dont know off top
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TC basically justified their decision by discussing it more tbqh
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Balrog0 posted...

spend more on firefighters

You make it sound so simple. How would spending more help when the problem is they don't have enough people applying or volunteering?

And keep in mind, I'm not talking just about Cali - this is done all over the PNW and West Coast.

>trying to post anything that goes against the communism circlejerk in LSC.

Posting anything in that shitty sub is a poor idea.
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OctilIery posted...

You make it sound so simple. How would spending more help when the problem is they don't have enough people applying or volunteering?

could spend more on outreach efforts

could pay them more

OctilIery posted...

And keep in mind, I'm not talking just about Cali - this is done all over the PNW and West Coast.

Oregon is even worse in this regard than California is -- Washington is better, but still worse than states like Georgia or Florida.

If fires are such a problem, they should respond appropriately. What justification is there for these areas to have fewer firefighters than these places I've mentioned ?
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LSC is even worse than T_D
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I read on reddit that California will not hire someone as a firefighter if they have a criminal record, which makes any job experience learned on this 'job' essentially useless.

I don't live in Cali so I'm not sure if it's right or now.
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TheBiggerWiggle posted...

I read on reddit that California will not hire someone as a firefighter if they have a criminal record, which makes any job experience learned on this 'job' essentially useless.

I don't live in Cali so I'm not sure if it's right or now.

This is a pretty big issue all over the country. People with a criminal record have a hard time getting a job after being released. Not to mention it's also harder to get a place to live as you can be declined an apartment based on criminal record.

Turns out people who can't get jobs or a house turn to crime to survive and get sent back to prison. It's a system intended to keep people locked up and then using the locked up people as slave for cheap labor to earn a profit.
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Balrog0 posted...

OctilIery posted...

You make it sound so simple. How would spending more help when the problem is they don't have enough people applying or volunteering?

could spend more on outreach efforts

could pay them more

OctilIery posted...

And keep in mind, I'm not talking just about Cali - this is done all over the PNW and West Coast.

Oregon is even worse in this regard than California is -- Washington is better, but still worse than states like Georgia or Florida.

If fires are such a problem, they should respond appropriately. What justification is there for these areas to have fewer firefighters than these places I've mentioned ?

Fire isn't a big issue except for a small part of the year.