Board 8 > Hypothetical Mercs Topic, S2 Topic 2: Pure Imagination

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DeathChicken posted...

Hm...

Leon and Mathilda (Leon: The Professional)
Neutral Male/Female Human
3/week

Leon and Mathilda are as they appear in Leon: The Professional. Both are individually carrying two pistols, a knife and a sniper rifle.

Cleaners (Passive) - Leon and Mathilda count as separate targets for ability purposes, but if one is removed by an ability then they both will be removed.

"The closer you get to being a pro, the closer you can get to the client." (Start of Battle) - As professional assassins, Leon and Mathilda have a job to do. Every three weeks, they may preselect an enemy merc (no Females though, Leon has a code). Their primary focus in the week's battle will be killing that merc, and Mathilda will begin the fight on the most optimal sniping location she can find. In addition, Leon will go into battle carrying a multitude of bombs under his armor, which he may detonate at his discretion.

They may optionally skip the foreplay and accept a fee in GP equal to the target's upkeep (declared along with the ability). If their owner pays up, Mathilda will snipe them in the head for a Start of Battle KO instead.

Upgrades

New Ability

"Bring me everyone." "What do you mean everyone?" "EVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE!" (Pre-Battle) - The fact of the matter is that if you don't bring in the overkill then Leon will probably make a monkey of your assassination efforts. As such, every four weeks the voice of Detective Stansfield will mysteriously yell out and enable the enemy team to roster everyone on their team with no limits that week! Just to keep things fair though, Leon's team may also bring in EVEEEEEEEEEEEEERYOOOOOOOOOONE!

Terrain

Leon's Apartment - The apartment in Little Italy that Leon and Mathilda call home. Access to the immediate surrounding area is allowed.

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Adjustments for Leon:
-Closer You Get should be weakened just a bit. A guaranteed preselected SOB KO every three weeks is too powerful for a 3/week imo (use the example of Ezio, who has a 40% chance KO every 3 weeks, and that's in peacetime)
-Everyone recharge should be upped considerably because that ability is gonna be a pain in the ass to carry out
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Also more discussion on what we would price Duke Togo
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http://mercsfilmandtv.pbworks.com/w/page/114105799/Characters%20By%20Upkeep

just to make sure people can see the link and stuff

and a full list of characters so far [-Leon, who's not posted yet] for those of you who don't like to click links (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE)

Combat Mercs

Variable
Ash's Pikachu

1/week
Arataka Reigen
Baman and Piderman
Bruce
Captain Jack Sparrow
Cujo
Gaston
Harold Hill
Homer Simpson
Jim West
Kool-Aid Man
Mulan
Mumen Rider
Natsuki Subaru
Patrick Bateman
R2-D2
Rika Furude
Robbie Rotten
Rocky Balboa
Samuel L Jackson
Scrooge McDuck
Shrek
Stripe
Wilson Fisk

2/week
Chucky
Dr. Horrible
Erin
Gregor Clegane
Happy Toyz Truck
Harley Quinn
Indiana Jones
Jon Snow
Killer Rabbit
Malcolm Reynolds
Michael Myers
Mr Satan
Paul Serone
Raptors
Sam and Dean Winchester
The Birds
The Cape
The Chosen One
The New Day
Usopp
Westley
Willow Ufgood

3/week
Ash Williams
Daredevil
Darkwing Duck
Demogorgon
Dominic Toretto
ED-209
Harry Hart
Hulk Hogan
Jacob Goodnight
Jen Yu
Joe
John Matrix
John McClane
John Rambo
John Wick
Legolas
Max
Olivia Moore
Orgazmo
Po
Revy and Rock
Rick Grimes
River Tam
Scott Pilgrim
Sonny
Sterling Archer
The Blair Witch
The Bride
The Joker
The Punisher
Tommy Oliver
Walter von Schenkopp

4/week
Darkman
Dexter
Carrie White
Dark Magician
Eric Draven
EVE
Jack Spicer
Jackie Chan
Jafar
Jason Voorhees
Joseph Joestar
Luke Cage
Mikasa Ackerman
Power Rangers
Queen Elsa
Ricky Ho
Sasuke Uchiha
The Maxx
Toph Beifong
Wesley Gibson
Xenomorph
Yoshikage Kira

5/week
Aang
Amon
Beast Boy
Colossus
Daenerys and Drogon
Deadpool
El Blanco
Guts
He Man
Iceman
Judge Dredd
Juggernaut
King Kong
King Leonidas
Mr Incredible
Nix
Predator
Puri-Puri Prisoner
Raimundo Pedrosa
Ralph Hinkley
Robocop
Samurai Jack
Sing
Static
T-800
The Creeper
The Facility Monsters
Todd Ingram
Twilight Sparkle

6/week
Albus Dumbledore
Andrew Detmer
Big Man Japan
Blue Eyes White Dragon
Danny Phantom
Darth Vader
Emperor Palpatine
Eren Yeager
Genos
Hercules
Lord Voldemort
Lucy (Elfen Lied)
Neo
Raven
Rick Sanchez
Stitch
Sylar
Syndrome
Wikus van de Merwe
Wolverine

7/week
Captain Planet
DIO
General Zod
Gipsy Danger
Loki
Mechagodzilla
Quicksilver
Sandman
Powerpuff Girls
The Cloverfield Monster
The Man In Black
Thor

Pure Support

1/week
Death
Gunnery Sgt Hartman
Hannibal Lecter
Hoban Washburne
Mr. Babadook

2/week
Alton Brown
Chuck Bartowski
Courage the Cowardly Dog
Grand Dad
Jareth
Joel, Mike, Crow and Tom Servo
Joey Wheeler
Lil' Slugger
Nathaniel Demerest
Pinhead
Rita Repulsa
Samara Morgan
The Thing
Tom Bombadil

3/week
Ed, Edd n Eddy
Ghostface
HIM
Jobe
John "Jigsaw" Kramer
Randall Flagg
Sam Beckett
Seto Kaiba
Yugi Mutou
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Do you want to adjust Leon so he has to pay twice the amount of upkeep (like 8 to kill a 4, 10 to kill a 5, etc) for the instakill?
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Maybe

SOB KOs are weird, because if I'm remembering right, both Leon and the target would have to be rostered for it to go through, and why would people roster someone who was going to get SOB KO'd?

wait, that doesn't sound right...
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It forces a game of chicken where most likely you're going to treat your guy as KOed, but there's always the chance the other guy *doesn't* roster the killer. Someone tried this on me in M4 with Burst Man's KO, rostering the target anyway and hoping I wouldn't call their bluff by rostering Burst Man (I did call their bluff)
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see that makes Leon a bit abusable, which is part of the issue. Because if the enemy isn't rostered, Leon doesn't go on cooldown, which could mean that Leon's owner could basically just buy a KO each week.

Maybe if the target was randomly selected (which would encourage people to pay to KO them if it lands on someone particularly effective?)
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Either that or throw in a clause that says if you're going for the moneykill route, you pay at the time of ability declaration regardless of the KO outcome
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Or just go the hell with it and make it an every four weeks pre-battle KO. I feel like it's already kind of limited with the recharge + money and not being able to target women. Would have thrown in a "Can't target kids" clause too except we don't have a Children class <_<
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DeathChicken posted...

we don't have a Children class <_<

You could always try to make one!

I already made classifications for anime/horror/comic characters so I could make abilities about them
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Curious about what respect they'll wind up getting actually, since they aren't "Stand in your face and shoot a bunch of bullets" like most of the McGunners. They're more like a couple of quasi-Agent 47s (well, Mathilda obviously isn't that good, but good enough to peg a moving target with a sniper rifle)
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DeathChicken posted...

Curious about what respect they'll wind up getting actually, since they aren't "Stand in your face and shoot a bunch of bullets" like most of the McGunners. They're more like a couple of quasi-Agent 47s (well, Mathilda obviously isn't that good, but good enough to peg a moving target with a sniper rifle)

Honestly we have a lack of good snipers aside from a select few, so I think they fill that void well. Leon is a solid enough assassin on his own, and then having an additional small target to snipe things is just a bonus.

Kind of ashamed I didn't think about them myself
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Did I miss a conversation on why Wolverine is a 6/week?
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There was some debate on where the hell his regen actually lies, the guy who Phoenix had trouble murdering or the guy who gets knocked out by a handgun bullet (I don't think he's a 6 at all, but your mileage may vary)
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I mean, my interpretation of that scene from X3 is that she wasn't even coming close to really trying to kill him. I take his line, "I'm the only one who can stop her" to mean that she will hold back against him because of their emotional bond, not because he can no sell her offense. The scene is clearly ambigious in any case, whereas him getting knocked out by a bullet is much more cut and dry.
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Yeah, I'm...really not on board with slapping a 6 on a guy who routinely gets smacked around by weapons the 3/week McGunners are carrying, scattered weird scene like the Jean thing aside. Closer to a 4 by my reckoning (Wolverine vs Jason is a closer match than Wolverine vs fucking Voldemort)
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Johnbobb posted...

see that makes Leon a bit abusable, which is part of the issue. Because if the enemy isn't rostered, Leon doesn't go on cooldown, which could mean that Leon's owner could basically just buy a KO each week.

Maybe if the target was randomly selected (which would encourage people to pay to KO them if it lands on someone particularly effective?)

It's not abusable because you're trading a roster slot for the kill. Leon is not gonna do much outside of lowbie fights by my reckoning. That's what makes it balanced. Source: I owned pudge and he was basically 'every three weeks KO a target by pulling him to your team' and this is exactly what he did - trade one slot for another.

DeathChicken posted...

Yeah, I'm...really not on board with slapping a 6 on a guy who routinely gets smacked around by weapons the 3/week McGunners are carrying, scattered weird scene like the Jean thing aside. Closer to a 4 by my reckoning (Wolverine vs Jason is a closer match than Wolverine vs fucking Voldemort)

Wolvie vs Cyclops is something Cyclops should dominate in most instances and I think Cyclops is a 5, maybe a 4. So yeah, agree with this.
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Because I'm horribly procrastinating on doing work, let's play Which 4s Do I Think Wolverine Would Beat (characters I am not familiar with denoted by Uh?)

Darkman - I think Wolverine would win just because they're both hand to hand, but adamantium > no adamantium when that's the case

Dexter - Wolverine would win. The Dexo-2000 would beat him silly though

Carrie - Carrie would throw him like a sack of potatoes. Then she'd eventually figure out that isn't working and crush his heart. Either way he'd never get near her

Dark Magician - Uh?

Eric Draven - This fight would be hilarious. "Wolverine chops Eric up. Eric gets up, shoots Wolverine in the head. Wolverine gets up, chops off Eric's arms. Eric grows his arms back, stabs Wolverine in the eye." Given what I think of movie Wolverine's durability that would end him

EVE - Uh?

Jack Spicer - Uh?

Jackie Chan - Wolverine wins, see Darkman

Jafar - Jafar wins, magic

Jason - Wolverine wins, see Darkman. Jason-X is probably "See Eric Draven"

Joseph Joestar - Uh?

Luke Cage - Wolverine, this is probably another Darkman fight

Mikasa Ackerman - Uh?

Power Rangers - They probably win just because there are five of em and any are capable of knocking him out (also just to put things in perspective, Megazord is currently at a 6. I do not view Wolverine as being equal to Megazord)

Elsa - I can go either way on this. Wolverine might win if he freaks her out enough to not defend herself, but freaking her out might just make her go "lol you're an ice cube" and there's the fight

Ricky Ho - Uh?

Sasuke - Uh?

The Maxx - Wolverine, see Darkman

Toph - Oh she'd wreck him, too fast and hits too hard

Wesley Gibson - Uh?

Xenomorph - Wolverine wins, although he'll get a facefull of acid for his trouble

Kira - Uh?
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So basically Wolverine probably beats most hand-to-hand slugfest fighters just because he gets to be cheap and bypass your defense with adamantium. He loses to anyone who can keepaway range him all day, or otherwise are Eric and can out-regen him
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Oh buuuuuull

In Wolverine v. Jean Grey she is literally disintegrating the flesh from his body that he's regrowing in real time

And getting knocked out by a bullet is not cut and dry because literally every other time he faces gunners he no-sells them. This is a guy who has survived multiple wars on the front line by directly running at gunners and slicing them apart.
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Except he doesn't? Pretty much anytime he gets shot he goes down. A bullet to the head does it in the first movie. A shotgun does it in Logan. He inevitably gets up because people are dumb and let him heal, but fact remains
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Correction, it was X-2. Still, a handgun from a generic cop puts him out for close to two minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfEOlFVSYcA
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DeathChicken posted...

Correction, it was X-2. Still, a handgun from a generic cop puts him out for close to two minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfEOlFVSYcA

Indiana Jones > Wolverine

Wolverine pulls out his claws.

Indy pulls out his pistol and shoots him.

Indy wins. Flawless victory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YyBtMxZgQs
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Realized this is one of the mercs where it should probably specify Leon and Mathilda are the Director's Cut versions, since that adds scenes of Mathilda actually going on assassinations
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ok so I really didn't think I'd have to explain why Wolverine doesn't go down to generic gunners, BUT HERE WE ARE APPARENTLY

Wolverine shrugging off being shot in the head:


Shot several times, responds like a bug bite:


Shot a whole bunch of times BEFORE adamantium, is slightly irritated:


Just fucking no-sells automatic gunfire:


SURVIVES A LITERAL NUKE:


Real-time regenerates his flesh as it's being disintegrated:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgu2RCLUr-s&feature=youtu.be&t=25s

Like please think about this for a second because this one is KIND OF ridiculous.

Even if you think that shot to the head is typical for Wolverine (which it REALLY isn't, because any other time he shakes off bullets). How do you think Wolverine's dying? Those bullets aren't piercing his adamantium skull. Any wounds he gets from a 4 just heals, very quickly.

For comparison, look at Deadpool. He has a healing factor, but breaking his limbs and losing a hand basically put him out of service for a day while they grew back. So for the purposes of Mercs, if you, say, slice his head off, then sure he may eventually survive a day or two later, but for the purposes of the match, he's out of service.

With Wolverine, that doesn't happen. You're not slicing off his head or breaking his bones unless you can cut through adamantium (which, in the film's canon, is literally the strongest substance in the world).

So take that Power Rangers v. Wolverine thing. Power Rangers win? What exactly could they do that would kill him? Nothing in their arsenal does more than slightly wound him, which he can immediately recover from. Wolverine v. Megazord would be a more fair battle, and Wolverine still probably wins that (in the training room in X2, he solos a Sentinel, which is pretty much the same thing).

Now take Wolverine v. Cyclops. The only way I can see that going to Cyclops is if you think Cyclops' beams can cut through adamantium, which I don't think anything in the films would support.

To kill Wolverine (or remove him from battle) you need one of the following:
-Enough strength to break the strongest material known to man OR enough strength to send him flying into the sun or something
-Powerful magic that can drain his life force or TK him underwater until he drowns
-Very specific power over metal (which as of now I think only Static has unless we decide to make a Magneto merc)

Nobody below a 5 has any of that, and even most 6s don't have it.
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And yet in that same "Survived a nuke!" movie he gets knocked out by a bunch of ninjas filling him full of arrows

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re4HPKgyAyc

Now I'll give you it's rather silly the amount of arrows it takes to knock him out, but even that's something that non-uber Jason could have probably done better with
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doesn't he get shot in the head in another movie and it took a lot longer for him to get up

like, to the point where it would count as a KO if he was the last one on his team
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfEOlFVSYcA

yeah this one
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Frankly, should we even have Wolverine as a merc? His showings are clearly ridiculously unreliable.
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"oh"

I only saw the big post and didn't scroll up to see what started this "whoops"

but yeah, a good shot puts logan down for a while, long enough to where I'd call the match
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Yes that one ex machina moment in X2 knocked him out for a minute so it could give Pyro a chance to lash out

but since that's inconsistent with the many other showings of him getting shot it shouldn't be used as the prime example

and in a mercs match, no, that wouldn't end the match if he's the last on his team, because it's a very very temporary stun with almost no real damage
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FFDragon posted...

but yeah, a good shot puts logan down for a while, long enough to where I'd call the match

Johnbobb posted...

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Johnbobb posted...

FFDragon posted...

but yeah, a good shot puts logan down for a while, long enough to where I'd call the match

Johnbobb posted...

FFDragon posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfEOlFVSYcA

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Johnbobb posted...

Yes that one ex machina moment in X2 knocked him out for a minute so it could give Pyro a chance to lash out

but since that's inconsistent with the many other showings of him getting shot it shouldn't be used as the prime example

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I feel like this is going in a circle
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you do you, I'm just calling it like I see it and how I'd vote in a match

you're using fresh out a tank logan as the baseline, when I think one that has been off the sauce for a while is the better baseline
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how is "non-combat-ready Wolverine trying to avoid a fight" a better baseline for combat-Wolverine that "Wolverine in combat"
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like there is exactly one time he goes unconscious to a bullet to the head, and like SO many other times where he gets shot over and over and keeps fighting as if it didn't happen

It's like if Dante got knocked out one time in one cutscene as a joke and suddenly that moment eliminated every other one of his feats and knocked him down 4 tiers
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like maybe you want to argue that way but do you really think the average voter will look at a clip of him surviving a direct nuke blast and another clip of him surviving literal disintegration

and be like "nah he's like generic gunner fodder"
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Also anyone who can just incap him without even needing to bother physically pummeling him (Elsa and Nix come to mind. Nothing he can do if he's ice cubed or dropped in a bottomless pit) kind of beat him outright. But I don't think you even need that. It seems like shocking his nervous system enough will usually KO him
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by that logic Elsa is an 8/week who instawins every match by just freezing everyone
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like if "surviving a nuclear blast" is now the baseline for a 4/week then we have a LOT of readjusting to do
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When that same guy also can't take an attack Jason would waddle through? If nothing else he's inconsistent as fuck and could be a 7 to a 3 depending on what scene he's in
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will someone back me up here I feel like I'm going crazy

like there WAS a consensus back when he was made that 6 was where he belonged (because mostly only 6s and higher can really harm him) because there are SO MANY impressive feats to outweigh that one single poor example
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Now that it's been mentioned though I'm kind of curious if Elsa should really be a 4. I have Iceman as a 5, and my initial reasoning for her being a tier below him is that he has much more combat experience and control over his power, though Elsa is very powerful as well

She's also quite a bit more fragile than Iceman though (seeing as he's able to do the whole full-body ice armor thing)
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Wolverine actually has quite a few poor examples, you're ignoring them to try and make a point. For every example of "Ignores a bullet!" there's another one where a bullet KOs him. For every "Survives a nuke!" there's another one where he has major trouble beating one goddamn Hand ninja grunt

The big problem with Elsa meanwhile is personality. She could go full tilt and ruin anyone if she pleases, but she's also a big weenie and isn't going to go to that unless very pressed. Before which she's probably dead
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Johnbobb posted...

by that logic Elsa is an 8/week who instawins every match by just freezing everyone

Wait a second. I couldn't convince anyone that Arthas could instafreeze people.
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trdl23 posted...

Johnbobb posted...

by that logic Elsa is an 8/week who instawins every match by just freezing everyone

Wait a second. I couldn't convince anyone that Arthas could instafreeze people.

I bought it, I also just bought 6s literally bruteforcing their way out by sheer swoleness because they're not fuckin wow weenies

Johnbobb posted...

Now that it's been mentioned though I'm kind of curious if Elsa should really be a 4. I have Iceman as a 5, and my initial reasoning for her being a tier below him is that he has much more combat experience and control over his power, though Elsa is very powerful as well

She's also quite a bit more fragile than Iceman though (seeing as he's able to do the whole full-body ice armor thing)

Wolverine is too inconsistent. If you take his high end showings he's broken, but if you take his low end he's kinda pathetic. I would average and round downward, which makes him more of a 4 than anything else.

(Note: This is WITH me discounting Logan cause he's clearly meganerfed there.)
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