Board 8 > Hypothetical Mercs Topic, S2 Topic 2: Pure Imagination

(+) Yeah! (+)

Ive seen ubw, is he actually and active fighter in the other routes?
---

Johnbobb posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

you can just watch a vid and that's legit what they can do

Hmmmmmmmm

No hmms about it, Nasu came out and say the most recent version of an event is the canon one so the UBW anime is How Shit Happened in UBW unless stated otherwise

And FGO is just a game that has showings so you just look at that. For example: https://youtu.be/ZvCyQOIe-xY?t=1063
---

GANON1025 posted...

Ive seen ubw, is he actually and active fighter in the other routes?

Yes. He super sucks in the Fate route and he should never ever feature as seen there, and in HF he gets Archer's arm and fights both Dark Saber and Berserker and defeats both of them because the arm gives him boosted parameters and new abilities.
---

I mean Kiritsugu first appeals in F/SN, but as far as I know all of his combat appearances are in the cartoon. At which point you're in a weird place where you're throwing a cartoon character into Mercs because he also had a videogame appearance
---

DeathChicken posted...

I mean Kiritsugu first appeals in F/SN, but as far as I know all of his combat appearances are in the cartoon. At which point you're in a weird place where you're throwing a cartoon character into Mercs because he also had a videogame appearance

Thats what i was getting at
---

DeathChicken posted...

I mean Kiritsugu first appeals in F/SN, but as far as I know all of his combat appearances are in the cartoon. At which point you're in a weird place where you're throwing a cartoon character into Mercs because he also had a videogame appearance

It is indeed weird

(though you could replace him with Kerry Alter if you wanted to sidestep that and wanted a 7/week stealth character - he's from videogame FGO and has actual feats from it)

I don't know if it's wrong per se because the idea is we want characters who are memorable and make for good matches, and he does do that. He just has that weird situation where he's only technically legal, at leat right now.
---

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Johnbobb posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

you can just watch a vid and that's legit what they can do

Hmmmmmmmm

No hmms about it, Nasu came out and say the most recent version of an event is the canon one so the UBW anime is How Shit Happened in UBW unless stated otherwise

And FGO is just a game that has showings so you just look at that. For example: https://youtu.be/ZvCyQOIe-xY?t=1063

I was hmmmmming at you pointing out how much better it is to just see a video and accept that as what you can do

Almost like a type of video Mercs would be preferred

A film Mercs if you will
---

Ohhhhhh

Now it all makes sense

hurr I'm dum
---

Anyway yeah, I'm against throwing in a dude whose *only* showings are in a cartoon while meanwhile only thing he did in a videogame was cameo. It's not even a stretchy case like Dracula etc where you can say his feats are the videogame feats, because in this case he doesn't have any.
---

fair

What about Shirou? Keep in a form that can like, win a fight? Or throw out too?

(More analysis coming later today. Just been a bit busy.)
---

I just had a random stupid thought, after reading the favorites/least favorites of final fantasy. It does require some rules additions.

Secret ability - This ability is not shown used until both sides have assigned rosters

Godbert Manderville (FF14)
Support

Start of Battle - Do the Manderville (Secret)- Every week, you can privately announce this to the admin, the attached merc can do the manderville, being forced onto the roster this week, and starts in the center of the map doing the manderville for 30 seconds, all start of battle effects are delayed on target merc until after the performance is done. (they will take full hits from any effect that occurs

Trigger - As only a Manderville can - If the manderville is done, post rosters, roll a % chance of activation, the % chance equal to combined upkeep of all rostered mercs + all gp used in paydowns. If the trigger activates, Godbert targets an enemy merc after all other SOB, ignoring untargetable, immunity and prioritizing mercs that were paid down, then used abilities.. The merc begins the battle suplexed halfway into the ground, with all buffs removed, and customizations broken for the fight. This then goes on a 4-5 week cooldown.

Upgrade -

Goldsmithing - Peacetime - If the attatched merc's tier is the current week, you may force him to not be rostered, and ply a trade. All mercs effected by this ability do not charge upkeep this week, and generate gp equal to a die roll from 1 to their combined upkeep + Godbert's upkeep.

(note, this can only be used in the proper week, if attached to 1-3 upkeep, low, 4-5 mid, 6-7 high)

Location - The Gold Saucer as seen in ff14. All employees and customers have been removed, as per regulations, the shops have been locked down to prevent looting.

Just get rid of Shirou imo. Doesnt add much to the game.

The less Nasu mercs, the better.
---

Shirou's potentially interesting as a fighter but is always going to have a massive respect gulf between the people who like him and the people who don't so it's just not really worth trying to fix him for me unless you have admin release bias.

Also Dr Wily is probably my favorite build in M4. Made that Mega Man Event worth running
---

Can vouch that Dr. Wily is awesome, for sure.
---

Well I mean, I hate Shirou for the reason I hate most Fate mercs. Arguments based on translation of a visual novel are the most inane thing ever. Like, we had arguments about Rin's speed where one Fate translation had her going at pretty good clip, then we'd get an "Actually in the original Japanese she's barely enhanced and that super speed stuff was added in for exaggeration *pushes up glasses*"

This is around the point where I personally go fuck Rin, fuck Shirou and fuck all visual novel mercs
---

Also credit to Kamek for part of the Wily Build. He made the battle write-up/custom-- very different abilities but I'm not sure I would've had a good starting point for a combat build Wily without it.
---

Except Just Monika.
---

How about this:

If we accept visual novel characters based on how they're described then we also have to accept Sonic's canon speed according to the Sonic wiki, which lists him as capable of hitting light speed

I think that sounds fair
---

also we start taking pokedex entries at face value
---

Johnbobb posted...

How about this:

If we accept visual novel characters based on how they're described then we also have to accept Sonic's canon speed according to the Sonic wiki, which lists him as capable of hitting light speed

I think that sounds fair

See, I think this runs up into 'how reliable is the writing here'.

Nasu mercs aren't super great for this for example, but during Draftmerx one of the exhibition matches was Gravy's team vs Kaziklu Bey from Dies Irae - and one of the feats I used was for his speed, a screencap. The text straight up said 'going at 300 to 500 kilometers per hour' so it's like, nobody can really call that unreliable I think? It's a quantified feat so you have to entirely dismiss the source material to say it's not real at that point and that's ground for a vote DQ, IMO.
---

Getting rid of VN characters? Yeah just try it buddy.......
---

So I've been playing Sonic Forces and I can already tell I'm definitely gonna want to make an Infinite build

dude's a solid 6 at least
---

I agree, both sonic and pokemon should be banned.

Is that a 6 before or after he gets the -2 upkeep disrespect all Sonic characters get?
---

Mewtwo59 posted...

Is that a 6 before or after he gets the -2 upkeep disrespect all Sonic characters get?

After

Dude's ideally like a 7. He's faster than Sonic without even trying (Sonic at full-force gets side-stepped by him and later can't keep up with him while Infinite flies backwards). Super strong, TK, can form hard-light clones of himself or others (as well as hard light walls, rockets, cannons, etc.) gravity manipulation, some time manipulation.
---

lolsonic
---

Monika is the visual novel exception, because bias
---

DeathChicken posted...

Monika is the visual novel exception, because bias

well she's also PS; it's not like we need to argue what she'd be capable of in a fight
---

Except... Just Monika...
---

Visual novels on the whole aren't really significantly below the chaff as far as interp consistency goes

Sonic games and Pokemon games are probably worse. Starcraft is probably worse. Fighting games in general are probably worse.

Most RPGs with any sort of showiness are probably about as bad. As are any characters from games that span multiple genres.

Like Shirou's the worst and I probably wouldn't have called him bottom 10 as far as "okay what can this guy actually do"
---

up
---

...
---

ok let's see if I can get more analysis done today for reals

first I gotta nap tho, work murdered me

see you guys in 2-3 hours!
---

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/spongebob/images/2/22/Two_hours_later_in_Squidtastic_Voyage.png
---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwMp5OkYjd4

IT'S TIIIIIIME. At long last, merc analysis resumes!

Exdeath

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/106119003/Exdeath

How did it take this long for Exdeath to appear in mercs? He feels like a glaring omission considering how good he is. He's basically Kuja/Kefka but with speed feats and much more beef in exchange for a little bit less offensive firepower hype. That's a trade I'll take any day (part of my dislike for mages is how 'they job to a minigun' is pretty much always a thing that can be argued convincingly vs them, and that's a pretty standard 4/week gunner weapon). His abilities were pretty sweet, too - a free paydown is great, and so is wiping out terrain advantage if you have the firepower edge. His 'nerf trigger' is a bit debatable on whether it should stay or leave, but it's interesting too. Need more data on it to say either way.

Should He Stay?: Yes.

Ezio Auditore da Firenze

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/102786757/Ezio%20Auditore%20da%20Firenze

Ezio makes no sense in mercs because terrains fuck him over so, so hard. So hard, in fact, that I think him (or whoever replaces him as the AssCreed rep, it's been a while since he had a game) should have a passive to not make them deserted wastelands. Stealth mercs do best in a target-rich environment where they can blend in, making them fight in the open is silly unless they're cloakers like Zeratul.

Bitching about battle worth aside, Ezio was basically ported over from Altair's M3 build, and for good reason - it's an evergreen that really needs no changes. Fun peacetime ability, fun upgrade ability that maybe could use a bit more juice to not be so situational but is otherwise solid. Nothing more to say here!

Should He Stay?: Yes but no tears will be shed if we get another AssCreeder.

Fetch

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/109131583/Fetch

OK, serious time. Why the hell did Fetch make it in as the primary Infamous rep? I know it's cause the admin team had played First Light and not Infamous 2 but it still makes no sense that we didn't get both Delsin Rowe and Cole McGrath considering how unique their powersets are. Bitching about representation aside, Fetch was a sneaky bullshit merc nobody bought because there was just no chance to grab her (except Gravy, who did so to deny Boko, thank you Gravy). Stash is an ability that lets you field a mostly unhindered Fetch in low and give the finger to a paydown...ON TWO WEEKS OF CD. I don't really have to explain just how broken this is, do I? The Delsin swap ability, by contrast, feels like a trap - it doesn't combo with her first ability, and the gain from bringing in Delsin isn't so big it justifies the EXP expenditure. Just split them off and make them separate mercs, they're worth keeping around.

Should She Stay?: Probably. Very solid merc that just needs a new upgrade abil.
---

FF4 Complete Collection

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/109308865/Final%20Fantasy%20IV%3A%20The%20Complete%20Collection

This merc was kind of a stroke of genius. Lots of people DO like FF4's dudes a lot, but if history is any indication they make for bad solo mercs. The solution? Throw an entire party of them at people! How well it works is anyone's guess because they've never seen real play between Boko and Rocket, but the concept is brilliant. Their abilities are pretty powerful as well, so that's kinda nice. If you want to efficiently represent FF4, this is the way to go IMO.

Should They Stay?: Yes. FF4 is too beloved not to add members of its player party in.

Flynn

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/110119354/Flynn

Exhibit A for 'we need more SMT mercs in this game'. Flynn came in and not onl were his abilities busted (KJHHHHHHH) but his battle worth was enormous. He was clearly super under-upkeeped as a 4/week, generally providing all the utility and casting firepower of a true 5. At least now we have a solid bead on where he stands. His build needs reworking because it really is very strong, and I'm not convinced he shouldn't be replaced with Nanashi as the latest SMT4 rep, but in a way I'm thankful for his presence in Mercs. One of gaming's best series' shouldn't be left on the wayside like that. Demifiend when?

Should He Stay?: Yeah, unless you want to put in Nanashi instead.

Freddy Fazbear's Pizza

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/110096863/Freddy%20Fazbear's%20Pizza

"The more things change, the more they stay the same."

So. In earlier iterations of mercs, Pyramid Head from Silent Hill was a PS. He was invincible and stalked a single dude, tormenting them with their own insecurities and failings, and only going away if they made peace with him. Then in I wanna say M3 he came back but you could just blow him up, and it was terrible. And here we are and...it's the same fuckin' problem for a new horror antagonist. Why? Just make the animals noninteractable, anything else makes no damn sense!

Should They Stay?: Probably, FNAF is kind of a cultural thing now. But fix that fucking base ability!

Frog

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/103586751/Frog

A strong contender for 'least necessary merc' right here. If Crono is a bog standard 3, Frog is an even bog standarder one. I don't get why we don't have Lucca instead of him (actually I do, he's popular, but I mean in terms of diversifying lowbie a bit). Chivalry worked...OK, and led to one of my favorite moments in M4, but I'm not sold on Lower Thine Guard. It's never gonna trigger in a match that matters, particularly because if you bought it you telegraph it exists and has to be taken into account by the enemy team. We can do better than this. Maybe disrupting enemy battleplans for 30 secs or something? Surely this quote can have a better ability wrung out of it.

Should He Stay?: Maybe. He's super generic in terms of what he offers to a team and his abilities are kinda feeble. I'd take a Chrono Cross rep over him if we really need a Chrono merc TBQH.
---

Fortune

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/102241531/Fortune

Fortune's a kinda weird holdover from the early days of Mercs. She's not super memorable as a character in a game as crazy as MGS2 (that'd be Solidus or THE LA-LI-LU-LE-LO for my money), but she has a very unique antigunner toolkit and a really beefy railgun so she makes a compelling argument on uniqueness alone. Bad Day is a...well, it's not a great ability. It was maximum voter interp and it ranged from 'character does nothing' to 'ability does nothing, fuck you' and that's no good. The concept is fine but the execution needs polish. Lucky In War and Nothing Else feels like it should probably be either 1 week lower in CD, or able to intercept more stuff. It's kinda limited as is so it doesn't feel super worth.

Should She Stay?: Not totally sure but gonna go with yes. Railgun is fun, antigunner hax is fun (antigunner passive WHEN) and her abilities have potential. They just need fine-tuning.

Fox McCloud

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/105168996/Fox%20McCloud

For my money, one of the best 7/week designs in this game. Vehicle mercs are something we could use more of, and Fox also exemplified how to give a character a meaty nerf passive without it being crippling. He requires a bunch of legwork, but the payoff is worth it - the Arwing got a TON of respect. Interestingly, I think we shouldn't actually bring this build back in full, though...because Star Fox Zero gives the Arwing the ability to turn into a walker mech and I feel that simplifies things considerably. A new nerf passive will be needed, but I think Fox's abilities can stay. Maybe give him a Bluemarine option for underwater terrains as an upgrade? That seems solid.

Should He Stay?: Who is this guy? He's Star Fox! (Yes, keep.)

Ganondorf

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/102031270/Ganondorf

It's super weird but we don't have a good bead on Dorf. I feel like he never ever thought in his OoT Ganon form? That's the one that really should get respect considering how strong and big it is, but it was all HW pigdorf who smashed lowbie or nothing. With BotW out, his Calamity form is probably a good baseline one, but I'm not sure if that doesn't elevate him to a 4/week. He'll need a new ability that isn't Pig Ganon (King of Evil is a great passive tho, keep him), and that's probably the hardest bit about improving him, but beyond that I think there's lots of good material to be mined from this build.

Should He Stay?: Duh. He's super iconic!
---

As the one who made Pyramid Head in M2, I remain so very sad to this day what happened to him in M3. Why, just...why
---

Fox has the Blue Marine as an option. It just never had the chance to be used outside of the Mega Man event.
---

FFD actually used the blue marine in forfeits to save money
---

Mewtwo59 posted...

Fox has the Blue Marine as an option. It just never had the chance to be used outside of the Mega Man event.

No, I know - what I'm saying is that Star Fox Zero largely eliminates the need for multiple vehicles as a default thing because the Arwing can become a walker. So for the sake of a simpler, easier writeup it probably makes more sense to make the Bluemarine an upgrade option for a hypothetical 'Modern Fox' build using Zero as a base, not something he gets by default. A custom that might as well not exist 99% of the time seems silly as a base effect.
---

Big thing I think the FFIV build needs is like, a peacetime where it can just be the main 5 (Rydia Rosa Cecil Kain Edge) as a 5/week or something. I think it's overpowered as a 5 outright but there are a lot of high teamcomps it just isn't helping against to the extent a 6 should so it's nice to have some flexibility I think to account for that weakness.
---

Ezio makes me wary. I mean I love Assassino! but his battle worth is so iffy for a 3/week

I mean I respect him, but it's really hard to convince anyone else how a guy with a couple knives and a sword can compete with gunners at his level

even in his own villa it was argued that he just jobs immediately
---

Lopen posted...

Big thing I think the FFIV build needs is like, a peacetime where it can just be the main 5 (Rydia Rosa Cecil Kain Edge) as a 5/week or something. I think it's overpowered as a 5 outright but there are a lot of high teamcomps it just isn't helping against to the extent a 6 should so it's nice to have some flexibility I think to account for that weakness.

I can see this

I actually would love to do a high tier exhibition match of like...IDK, Cloud, Strider, Mega Man, FF4 and Kain vs Diablo, Samus, Rudy, Aigis and Neptune. See if people respect FF4 to carry when it's a power player and not the billionth 6/week on a team.
---

Johnbobb posted...

Ezio makes me wary. I mean I love Assassino! but his battle worth is so iffy for a 3/week

I mean I respect him, but it's really hard to convince anyone else how a guy with a couple knives and a sword can compete with gunners at his level

even in his own villa it was argued that he just jobs immediately

This is why I think Ezio needs a 'there's people around' passive

He gets much better if he can blend into a crowd I feel, or use the confusion of civilians being slaughtered to go nuts.
---

That match feels like a whole bunch of squishy people versus people who can kill them really quickly
---

DeathChicken posted...

That match feels like a whole bunch of squishy people versus people who can kill them really quickly

Who would you recommend to even it up a bit? I assume it's the FF4 side that's squish?
---

Ezio can probably be replaced with Bayek now. Or Bayek can come in along with Ezio I suppose.

I have a Ganondorf build of my own that I liked, I'll post it soon when I find it.
---

I dunno, but you'd need someone to at least physically check both Diablo and Samus. I'd personally argue Kain counter-haxing Diablo to death, but I can see the headache arguments versus that ("He doesn't have the Soul Reaver in this timeline ihopaihspgoih") coming a mile away
---

FF4 party team needs a damage sponge, as it doesn't have the time to use its huge-ass versatility to counter the raw power of Diablo + Samus + ANIME GIRLS. Throw the Lich King in Kain's place as him + a party to buff him and for him to super undead fun times with and you got a match.
---