Board 8 > Where do you draw the line for supporting abusers or those guilty of misconduct?

(+) Yeah! (+)

A story about Brand New's lead singer Jesse Lacey came out yesterday and it really got me thinking about how terrible someone has to be for me to stop watching/enjoying their art or supporting them in any financial sense.

I'll begin by saying that I've never seen a Woody Allen or Roman Polanski film. It's easy enough to avoid what are supposedly great works of art when you've never admired the artist in the first place. I've thought they were both pieces of shit for as long as I can remember and I have no desire to ever watch Annie Hall, Rosemary's Baby, The Pianist or anything else they've done. I would feel guilty for putting even a penny in either of their pockets... We're talking about literal child rapists and that's an easy line to draw. But at the same time, I grew up listening to Michael Jackson, and I feel that when looking at his accusations I'm probably just being willfully ignorant. It's really just like that Chappelle sketch. It's not as if I don't think there's any way he could be guilty of it, it's just that I find myself making excuses and being way more skeptical about his cases than I would be for anyone else and even though I know it's 100% only because I love his music, if I question myself deep down I don't actually believe he did it.

So that brings me to today, and these past couple weeks. I'm not surprised by any of this information. People abuse power and we've known this forever. Why would modern celebrities be any different than royalty from centuries past, or even people in small-time positions like being teachers, coaches, store managers or CEOs? Clearly they're not and I don't doubt that the vast majority of people, famous or otherwise have abused power or made an unwanted advance toward someone at some point in their life. People fuck up, you live and you learn. It's the degree of these fuckups that has me thinking though. Harvey Weinstein is a literal rapist, and likely a serial rapist. Rot in hell. Kevin Spacey preyed on teenagers and attempted to rape at least one of them... fucking shitbag. Ratner and James Toback, rapists, fuck them. Louis CK asked women if he could jerk off in front of them in an abuse of power...meh? Like I read those types of stories and I think that's where I stop caring. Yeah he's not the greatest guy for doing that, but I also don't think those are the types of mistakes that should ruin someone's career. Grabbing someone's ass or similar types of groping... disgusting, abhorrent behaviour yes.. but not the type of thing you should lose your livelihood over. I'm still going to watch Louie because in my opinion he's just a creep, not a terrible human being. I have friends that are creeps, I wouldn't ever befriend a rapist or child molester.

Brand New is literally my favourite band, and much of that is because I think Jesse Lacey is one of the greatest lyricists ever. When I read the story about his allegations I came to the conclusion that I don't really care if they're true. Soliciting nudes from a 15-year old is pretty fucking bad. Forcing someone to watch you jerk off over Skype is bad, though it seems like an oxymoron to me (ever been to chatroulette?) but it's not even that I don't believe the victim, I've just gotten past the point of caring about every incident of misconduct. Assuming everything she said is true, he quite literally never touched this girl yet we're supposed to brand her a survivor of sexual abuse and never listen to this band again?

I don't know how many of you know me, but I lean pretty heavily into the whole SJW thing and have no problem admitting my biases when it comes to things like this, but I was also worried that like many things with the left, the virtue signalling was bound to get way out of control once multiple accusations started coming out every day, and sadly I think I've reached the point where unless someone has been physically assaulted... I just don't care anymore.

I have more to say on others but I just wanted to start a discussion, where do you all draw the line?
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I don't know yet.

I've been feeling absolutely sick since yesterday. The girl's story has some holes in it. Skype didn't have video chat capabilities until 2005-2006, she said these incidents happened in 2002.

So, while I'd like the stories to either be completely or mostly false, the idea of a 24 year old rockstar coercing his teenage fans into things doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me. That, and Jesse Lacey has always had a darker side, and the subsequent self hatred rings through tons of his lyrics. This wouldn't surprise me at all.

I am disappointed that a large portion of Brand New fans are already throwing him under the bus, as though the false accusations against Conor Oberst from Bright Eyes never happened.

https://www.reddit.com/r/brandnew/comments/7c9a1l/unpopular_opinions_from_a_former_teenage_girl_on/

Here's something else covering my thoughts. Obviously the burden of responsibility shouldn't be completely on these younger women, but she does have a good point. In a lot of these cases, they do have agency. They are doing things that they want to do at the time. I remember hearing from teenage female friends in high school all the disgusting things they would do with (lead singer) of (band).
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I think in cases like a movie or music, there are a lot of people who contribute to it. Don't think of it as supporting the singer, but rather all the other band members, producers, etc. who are (hopefully) innocent. In the case of the directors, there are actors, special effects people, camera crew, and so on, so you can think of it as supporting them
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The other thing I've seen so far is a lot of "fuck you if you still support them after this" from the usual suspects. Unacceptable.

As though all of us can just flip a switch on something like that after a decade or more for some.
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Supporting the abuser: never, that's easy

If the question is about consuming/enjoying their art/products, that is pretty difficult. To be honest for me it's about what alternatives are out there. If there is ANY reasonable alternative, then the bar is very low for dropping support. But if they are truly unique and irreplaceable... I think I would still consume their stuff.

Although it's really hard for an artist to be THAT irreplaceable so it's not too big of an issue. It's more common with big corporations that have a really good product or something (e.g. Google giving data to NSA).
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This happened to my favorite artist too (Bowie) where after his death people tried to bring up how he banged an underage groupie in the 70s. Due to the timing of the story and the relative mildness it was easy to not care and say fuck you to those who wanted to drag his name through the mud.

Lacey doesnt surprise me at all given the culture of music and frontman worship. I dont condone what he may have done but Ill still listen to his music.

Louis CK I think is just a guy with a really weird fetish that naturally makes people uncomfortable. I believe him when he said he thought it was okay because he asked first. I think most of us would use our fame to sleep with non famous people. But what turns him on is not something many people are comfortable.

I cant defend any of the other recent allegations that come to mind. But I also have no taste for public lynchings and am not going to spend time calling anyone out.
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I mean it's hard to say

like I can think the person is a piece of shit and still like the things they've made

Mel Gibson is one of the most despicable pieces of shit out there, and has been for a long time, but last year I still saw Hacksaw Ridge and it was a damn good movie

and Kevin Spacey's controversy doesn't make his performance in Se7en any less impressive

it kind of goes along with what MZero said, and I actually had basically the same conversation with someone back when allegations came out against David O Russell the year American Hustle came out. They were the type of person who essentially many conservatives might stereotype liberals as. They insisted that because of the allegations, the movie should be denied any Oscar nominations (including Best Actor/Actress ones?) and that anyone who sees/enjoys the movie is a bad person. And of course that's going too far, because they're one person in a staff of a few hundred.

Musicians are trickier though. Like, I don't know if I'd really want to see a live show of someone I knew has sexually assaulted people, but then again, that's never happened with any of my favorites (that I know of) so it's hard to say for sure.

and I hate to say it, but I guess it also depends on the extent? Like "drunkenly groped someone one time" is different from "had a multi-decade long string of sexual abuse that they paid people to cover up"
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I'm very into art and entertainment so I don't care at all what the morals or ethics of the creator are.

I have no problem saying "great writer, terrible person" and just complimenting their art skills while condemning their personal choices at the same time.
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As an extension I also think if the work can do good then let it do good.

If a child rapist makes a movie that encourages something good in society let the film do its good. If the example were a scientist or engineer and a great invention then let the invention serve humanity.

And you can still put the serial killer rapist prick behind bars. And you don't have to celebrate him either. Like thanks for the cookies, now gtfo.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

I've been feeling absolutely sick since yesterday. The girl's story has some holes in it. Skype didn't have video chat capabilities until 2005-2006, she said these incidents happened in 2002.

To be fair, she never says when the Skype stuff actually happened. According to her, she had interactions with him from age 15 to 22, so that's a pretty wide span
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so if she was 15 in 2002, by the time skype had video capabilities she wouldve been 18

so whats the problem

(if those facts are correct)
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pjbasis posted...

If a child rapist makes a movie that encourages something good in society let the film do its good.

It's so crazy that Victor Salva was convicted of molesting a 12 year old with video evidence and THEN he went on to make Powder.

This topic in a nutshell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiQvO8OC7jc
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I love it
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Trying to "poke holes" in a sexual assault victim, great

This is why I didn't make a topic when the news first broke and was going to let it be here
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I generally separate art from artist to begin with. I still enjoy a Chris Benoit match, despite being fully aware that his moveset turned his brain to oatmeal, eventually leading to him murdering his family.

It's harder when there's active malice from an otherwise "normal" person but I do try to split it .
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to me whether a song is good or not has nothing to do with who wrote or recorded it. it only relates to whether I enjoy the song when I listen to it.

apply that logic to every other medium and there you go.
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KamikazePotato posted...

This topic in a nutshell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiQvO8OC7jc

Yeah, he's been one of my favourites for a while.

Bane_Of_Despair posted...

Trying to "poke holes" in a sexual assault victim, great

This is why I didn't make a topic when the news first broke and was going to let it be here

Who are we talking about here? If it's the Brand New stuff, yeah I can see why people are upset that others are being skeptical about the accusation but are we really talking about sexual assault here? Given their music I fully believe that Jesse Lacey did everything she said he did, but no one was assaulted and it bothers me that we're equating any type of sexual misconduct with a term literally synonymous with rape.
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thundersheep posted...

but no one was assaulted and it bothers me that we're equating any type of sexual misconduct with a term literally synonymous with rape.

This has bothered me for ages with the whole rape culture debacle. But when it involves a minor it's definitely twisted.
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Thundersheep stop while you're ahead please I know you're better than this
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

Thundersheep stop while you're ahead please I know you're better than this

Im not better than this so Im confused as to what you find so appalling in what he said. Do you think all sexual misconduct is equal?
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There's nothing wrong with starting a relationship with an underage person who idolizes you as long as you wait until they are 18 to show them your junk. Grooming isnt illegal okay?
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thundersheep posted...

Who are we talking about here? If it's the Brand New stuff, yeah I can see why people are upset that others are being skeptical about the accusation but are we really talking about sexual assault here? Given their music I fully believe that Jesse Lacey did everything she said he did, but no one was assaulted and it bothers me that we're equating any type of sexual misconduct with a term literally synonymous with rape.

this made me think of a skit from Nathan For You where he makes a wall for "Popcorn Sharers and Theater Masturbators" and then puts the pictures up on the wall of people who he caught sharing popcorn.
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He didn't rape her so why should we care
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I don't know the situation, though I'll object to sexual assault being synonymous with rape. It's not. Stats that use sexual assault and break it down often have single digit percentages of those cases being rape. Specifics do matter, the difference of harassment to assault and assault to rape should be huge, not words that mean or imply the same thing. If you don't then everything becomes a massive witch-hunt where none of it matters anymore because you're comparing calling someone sugartits or taking someone out to dinner as being equivalent/being in the same category to rapists - something that literally happened in the daily mail recently, no less. They even included cases where sex between a representative and a worker was found... Despite putting the asterisk of "they have a child together."

People just gotta be careful with their words and their outrage because it's very easy to make all of this worthless. be only as upset over the exact allegations, not buzzwords that blue the issue.
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"Oh man that abuse is not as bad as THIS abuse so let's not get crazy here!"

Alright sure it's not rape there are you happy? But sexual abuse is sexual abuse and if my using of the word assault is the MOST IMPORTANT THING you got from my original post than holy shit
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

"Oh man that abuse is not as bad as THIS abuse so let's not get crazy here!"

Alright sure it's not rape there are you happy? But sexual abuse is sexual abuse and if my using of the word assault is the MOST IMPORTANT THING you got from my original post than holy shit

Why are we pretending that details don't matter in how some people interpret this story? Everyone has a different set of morals and if the difference is between soliciting nudes/exposing yourself cam with a 15 year old vs. an 18 year old that's a huge difference to some people and would literally determine whether or not they condemn this guy. You can call it poking holes in the story, but these are details that change the entire narrative... for some.

What I'm saying is that I already believe this happened, and even if she was 15 when it all went down, he didn't assault her and it's absurd to claim that he did. How can you honestly say that online harassment is the same as being physically assaulted?
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Ok thundersheep it's fine, I got enough info from all of this
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Yeah dude he waited until she wss 18 to show her his junk. Nothing wrong with grooming a minor til she is of age, c'mon
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Okay, cool. All sex crimes are equal and the people who commit them are all irredeemable monsters. I see where the line is, got it.
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That isnt at all what i said
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the point i was making is just because he didnt physically assault her doesnt mean this isnt despicable. I love brand new. I love laceys voice and most of his lyrics. But if this is true, he initiated a relationship with an underage fan who idolized him, continued the relationship for years and solicited sexual behavior from her. Even if he waited until she was 18 to request pics or masturbate over skype, thats still supremely messed up. I dont think anyone here is saying its as bad as rape. But that doesnt give him a pass
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If he used any kind of "position of power" or coercion to get her to watch him masturbate, it'd fall under sexual assault in most states.
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Okay so bane used the word assault, which he already admitted wasn't accurate and has since changed wording
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SallyShears posted...

Okay so bane used the word assault, which he already admitted wasn't accurate and has since changed wording

Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with you.

I was mainly saying the argument over the word "assault" is pretty dumb because sexual assault legally is a larger umbrella than just physical assault
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Sorry sep i was ammending my previous post directed at sheep not responding to you. I dont know the exact line of abuse vs assault and dont really care to try and make that distinction
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Not because i think they are equal but because i am not a lawyer
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SallyShears posted...

the point i was making is just because he didnt physically assault her doesnt mean this isnt despicable. I love brand new. I love laceys voice and most of his lyrics. But if this is true, he initiated a relationship with an underage fan who idolized him, continued the relationship for years and solicited sexual behavior from her. Even if he waited until she was 18 to request pics or masturbate over skype, thats still supremely messed up. I dont think anyone here is saying its as bad as rape. But that doesnt give him a pass

And I don't know how that even became the argument, this entire topic was made to discuss what degree of offense is necessary to justify cutting yourself off from someone's art. If you're referring to EC's post that is exactly the thing I'm curious about. Everyone has a different standard for what they'd consider messed up or unforgivable behaviour. And what exactly is a pass in this situation? Can one not condemn another's behaviour and not wish for them to be put in jail? Or have their livelihood destroyed?
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StealThisSheen posted...

SallyShears posted...

Okay so bane used the word assault, which he already admitted wasn't accurate and has since changed wording

Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with you.

I was mainly saying the argument over the word "assault" is pretty dumb because sexual assault legally is a larger umbrella than just physical assault

Yeah, I feel that the problem is in colloquial use because people will use sexual assault almost as a euphemism for rape because the word itself is seen as triggering. I have a vague idea of what the legal definition of assault is, but when articles will print sexual assault when they are talking about actual rapes that were committed, I think it's a little irresponsible to use the same words when talking about a situation where there was no physical contact.
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Because of this

HotDogButts posted...

so if she was 15 in 2002, by the time skype had video capabilities she wouldve been 18

so whats the problem

(if those facts are correct)

And your repeated attempts to downplay this.
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Assuming everything she said is true, he quite literally never touched this girl yet we're supposed to brand her a survivor of sexual abuse and never listen to this band again?"

Yes, this at the least is sexual abuse.
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yeah thunder why would you say that
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lol
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I just stop watching/listening/etc to their work. There is such an astonishing amount of good content in movies, music, games, and other entertainment these days that it's fairly easy.
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SallyShears posted...

And your repeated attempts to downplay this.
"
Assuming everything she said is true, he quite literally never touched this girl yet we're supposed to brand her a survivor of sexual abuse and never listen to this band again?"

Yes, this at the least is sexual abuse.

This is helpful, I'm just trying to learn here. When I read the story I considered the events an "abuse of power" I would not ever think to call the woman in question a victim or survivor of sexual abuse because I generally consider this sort of badgering to fall under harassment and not assault. And I have very different feelings about how I view those guilty of either crime. I was just surprised reading all of the responses on twitter and reddit of how people were almost unanimously deciding to stop listening to all of their music, throw away all of their merch, and get tattoos covered up because of these reports. Personally I do create a distinction between acts I'd consider simply pervy or creepy and those that are unforgivable... even if they both happen to be criminal. It seems that others do not, and will disavow anyone who abuses power or influence for their sexual needs. I want to know how others feel and I wasn't being sarcastic, it seems that even a few here believe these men should all be cut off, regardless of the severity of the offense.
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I think wanting to disavow yourself from someone soliciting minors for sexual behavior, or at the bare minimum initiating a relationship with a minor who idolized them and soliciting sexual behavior from them as soon as they arent a minor is absolutely warranted. You dont have to do that, enjoying their art is fine, but if people want to its absolutely understandable.
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i'm not going to punish myself for something someone else did

besides, like, the united states literally invaded iraq yet i'm still a taxpaying us citizen. all this stuff is barely a blip on the radar compared to something like that
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Its significantly harder to emigrate to stop supporting a country via taxes than it is to stop consuming product from gross pepple
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You can stop voting for politicians who go to war or paying your taxes pretty easily actually
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HeroicGammaRay posted...

i'm not going to punish myself for something someone else did

besides, like, the united states literally invaded iraq yet i'm still a taxpaying us citizen. all this stuff is barely a blip on the radar compared to something like that
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The first line is fine enough

But the "There's people dying/starving/whatever in X man this is nothing compared to that" argument is always one of the worst arguments ever made
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Jesse has issued an apology.

https://www.facebook.com/BrandNew/posts/10155923794753023
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