Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 148: Don't Sexually Assault People

(+) Yeah! (+)

I don't think we need anything clever for this one. Just a friendly reminder.
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Tag.
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To the surprise of no one, Hannity is acting like Trump's tweets on Franken are fire completely oblivious to the hypocrisy
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SgtSphynx posted...

To the surprise of no one, Hannity is acting like Trump's tweets on Franken are fire completely oblivious to the hypocrisy

https://twitter.com/prisonplanet/status/931204793472823298
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don't tell me what to do
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I noticed you are all praising the Franken response, while most of the political world is still slamming it to pieces. Foremost for not acknowledging the whole event and second most due to the fact in his book he stated he learned how to lie and apologize for things he wasn't really sorry for for political gain.
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Corrik posted...

I noticed you are all praising the Franken response

what
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Define "most of the political world".
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VintageGin posted...

Corrik posted...

I noticed you are all praising the Franken response

what

hasn't even been 24 hours and Corrik is already trying to blatantly lie LOL
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That does sound like a lie. Franken (and his response - or at least his initial one) has gotten blasted in this topic over the past 18 hours, and most liberals here, myself included, feel he should resign.
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Most people just seem to think this will get resolved properly because Franken apologized, the woman accepted the apology and Franken consented to being investigated by his peers so they can decide what they want to do with him.

Thats really one of the three major differences between the Franken case and the Moore case.

Moore has denied with no real credible counter narrative, hasnt owned up to what he has been accused of, and what he is accused of is far more heinous both in that its a pattern of behavior and that that behavior is basically pedophilia in addition to being assault, and
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I mean, I said the apology was much better than his initial response but it rang hollow without him resigning.
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TheRock1525 posted...

I mean, I said the apology was much better than his initial response but it rang hollow without him resigning.

What exactly do you think he needs to resign for?
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Inviso posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

I mean, I said the apology was much better than his initial response but it rang hollow without him resigning.

What exactly do you think he needs to resign for?

His own statement says he let his constituents down. You can't properly represent your people if you truly believe that.
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My take on Franken is pretty much "if it's good enough for the victim, then I don't see a point in me being self-righteous about it."
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TheRock1525 posted...

Inviso posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

I mean, I said the apology was much better than his initial response but it rang hollow without him resigning.

What exactly do you think he needs to resign for?

His own statement says he let his constituents down. You can't properly represent your people if you truly believe that.

What EXACTLY do YOU think he needs to resign for?
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Eddv posted...

Franken consented to being investigated by his peers so they can decide what they want to do with him.

This, specifically, is why I'm ok with him having not resigned at this point in time after sleeping on it. Though Rock has a very good point as well, and with the info I have, I still think he probably should by the time that investigation wraps up.
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Espeon posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Inviso posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

I mean, I said the apology was much better than his initial response but it rang hollow without him resigning.

What exactly do you think he needs to resign for?

His own statement says he let his constituents down. You can't properly represent your people if you truly believe that.

What EXACTLY do YOU think he needs to resign for?

TheRock1525 posted...

His own statement says he let his constituents down. You can't properly represent your people if you truly believe that.

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Thats not an answer, Rock.
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If there's a pattern and the investigation turns it up, he definitely should resign.

If it's a one time joke-too-far thing and the woman doesn't even want him to resign, I don't see why he should.

(I haven't read up on everything)
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Espeon posted...

Thats not an answer, Rock.

Actually it is. Read his statement, read how much he condemns his own actions, and read at the end how he acknowledges how he let the people he represents down.
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Clarence Thomas set the standard already for sexual harassment in the government, I really don't think anything's going to happen to Franken
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I would argue we should have higher standards than we did for Clarence Thomas but I admit that that's the standard.

Those claims were corroborated and real he still got pretty easily confirmed.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Espeon posted...

Thats not an answer, Rock.

Actually it is. Read his statement, read how much he condemns his own actions, and read at the end how he acknowledges how he let the people he represents down.

Hes apologizing and is ashamed of his actions from 11 years ago (when he was still a comedian, mind you). Keep in mind that said actions are currently air-groping (with a photo), and a kiss that he doesnt remember happening as accused. It just feels like an overreaction to call for his resignation at this time, especially given that he sincerely apologized.
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Tag
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Are you morally obligated to resign because you disappointed your people on something?

I don't want to confuse sexual assault/harrassment/infidelity/scumminess with other political issues like failing to bring businesses to your state or improve traffic in your town. I think we agree those are totally different issues so feel free to separate them. Just as a broad question, does a politician's guilt in how they serve their people because of (let's say for now) one thing* they feel bad about mean it's wrong for them to continue trying?

*I realize this one thing can make all the difference but I hope my question is finding an interesting point.
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The point is that you shouldn't keep a job at Wal-Mart, let alone one of the highest offices in the land, with that behavior. Not saying we need to publicly lynch him, I'm saying we should hold people who wield that level of power at least to the standards of everyone else.
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Wait is your opinion that people should become completely unemployable?
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HaRRicH posted...

Are you morally obligated to resign because you disappointed your people on something?

In terms of criminally moral behavior? Yes.
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FFDragon posted...

Wait is your opinion that people should become completely unemployable?

Not at all.
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Also, this Franken situation might be less frustrating to deal with if he would actually explain how he thought it went down. So far it seems like all he's said about the kiss was that he recalled it happening differently. What does he remember differently? Right now it's just casting doubt without giving his side of the story.

One more note: something else that happened eleven year before it was released nationally and before they were a politician was Donald Trump's "grab 'em by the pussy" tapes. I don't know that's a good defense for Franken.
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But you just said that people should get fired from Wal-Mart. If you can't get a job at wal-mart, where can you get a job?
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HaRRicH posted...

Are you morally obligated to resign because you disappointed your people on something?

I personally think the Senate in particular should be held to a higher standard in this regard, and if a Senator actively belives he did a bad job like this (with the key being that he, in the moment, knows he's doing wrong), I think he should resign.

That said, I admit it's highly unrealstic to expect people to hold themselves to that high of a standard when it comes to potentially giving up power, and a third or so of the country is actively uninterested in holding politicians to any sort of standard.
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FFDragon posted...

If there's a pattern and the investigation turns it up, he definitely should resign.

If it's a one time joke-too-far thing and the woman doesn't even want him to resign, I don't see why he should.

(I haven't read up on everything)

Basically if I'm being realistic instead of idealistic, this is probably how it ends.
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FFDragon posted...

But you just said that people should get fired from Wal-Mart. If you can't get a job at wal-mart, where can you get a job?

Should have explained this better: if I got a job at Wal-Mart and they were made aware of this behaviour not by me but an affected party, then yes they should be allowed to fire me. But going forward with it as public knowledge for all future job applications and having shown remorse for it, employers can take that into consideration but there'd be nothing wrong with hiring that person.
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Again VI presented the most damning piece of evidence - the higher moral standing argument basically died the day Thomas was confirmed as a Supreme Court Justice.
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If (big if) this is an isolated incident I don't actually agree with that. Hold senators to a standard and all that but given the context I'd find it unreasonable to fire an employee over this if it went down like it has (apology, accepted apology etc) except you know, not in the spot light since it'd be a regular person.
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so under that logic... if he resigns, runs for election next time, and the people vote him in again... You would be okay with that?
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FFDragon posted...

so under that logic... if he resigns, runs for election next time, and the people vote him in again... You would be okay with that?

With all his transgressions laid bare, sure.
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What if he doesn't resign, but he wins re-election? Same thing, or worse because he skipped the middle man step of resigning?
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FFDragon posted...

What if he doesn't resign, but he wins re-election? Same thing, or worse because he skipped the middle man step of resigning?

Worse.
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TheRock1525 posted...

With all his transgressions laid bare, sure.

Under this logic, shouldn't it be the people of Minnesota to decide if he should resign or not?
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Eddv posted...

Again VI presented the most damning piece of evidence - the higher moral standing argument basically died the day Thomas was confirmed as a Supreme Court Justice.

In my defense, I literally wasn't alive when that happened.
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@TheRock1525 you have yet to talk about how the standard's already been set with Clarence Thomas, as depressing as that is. Even if it was a one time thing and it was with malicious intentions, people who have been charged with sexual harassment have been confirmed by the senate and allowed to serve within the government

Also you have yet to register that Marshadow code I sent you like a month ago >_>
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Dancedreamer posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

With all his transgressions laid bare, sure.

Under this logic, shouldn't it be the people of Minnesota to decide if he should resign or not?

Ideally sure, but I don't know how that would work or how much power states have to hold special recalls in events like this.
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LiquidOshawott posted...

@TheRock1525 you have yet to talk about how the standard's already been set with Clarence Thomas, as depressing as that is. Even if it was a one time thing and it was with malicious intentions, people who have been charged with sexual harassment have been confirmed by the senate and allowed to serve within the government

Also you have yet to register that Marshadow code I sent you like a month ago >_>

I'm not saying how things actually are, I'm saying the way they should be. Yes, I get it, Clarence Thomas is a huge piece of shit that should have never been confirmed.

Also don't rush me.
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HaRRicH posted...

Also, this Franken situation might be less frustrating to deal with if he would actually explain how he thought it went down. So far it seems like all he's said about the kiss was that he recalled it happening differently. What does he remember differently? Right now it's just casting doubt without giving his side of the story.

One more note: something else that happened eleven year before it was released nationally and before they were a politician was Donald Trump's "grab 'em by the pussy" tapes. I don't know that's a good defense for Franken.

My point about the time was less it happened eleven years ago, its not a big deal and more he was a comedian at the time, taking a photograph that was intended to be humorous, and he didnt become a senator until like, halfway through 2009.
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Espeon posted...

HaRRicH posted...

Also, this Franken situation might be less frustrating to deal with if he would actually explain how he thought it went down. So far it seems like all he's said about the kiss was that he recalled it happening differently. What does he remember differently? Right now it's just casting doubt without giving his side of the story.

One more note: something else that happened eleven year before it was released nationally and before they were a politician was Donald Trump's "grab 'em by the pussy" tapes. I don't know that's a good defense for Franken.

My point about the time was less it happened eleven years ago, its not a big deal and more he was a comedian at the time, taking a photograph that was intended to be humorous, and he didnt become a senator until like, halfway through 2009.

Except when he was running he failed to disclose these events. Once again, we only see a remorseful Franken after getting caught.
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I wasn't rushing so much as uh letting you know it still existed. >_>

and I guess I'm just speaking from the perspective that even if they investigate him and punish him severely, that investigation doesn't hold teeth if Thomas is in office
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