Current Events > males talking about rape culture

(+) Yeah! (+)

Ricky's in da HOOOOUSE!!

anyway

how do you feel when males start using the term "rape culture" in a serious manner? and how do you feel about the ones who share the narrative that men need to check themselves in behavior/rhetoric that the vocal women view as toxic?

had an interesting talk at work. can't remember what started it, but it ended with me learning who Tom Leykis is.
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Talking about rape culture at work is some risky business dude, can't imagine that working out well even if you said all the "right" things.

At the very least, I think men need on overall enlightenment on this whole conversation, because it seems that every woman I know experiences some horrible shit on the regular and the usual male responses are either a) act dismissive or apologetic to the guy b) act defensive like it's a personal attack on them to even hear about it or c) straight up not believe it happened.

Something very weird about the phenomenon of one person talking about their experiences and another person jumping through hoops to discredit it.
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under normal circumstances it would be more risky, but we're an odd bunch. pretty tame compared to the other things we talk about. imagine that, lol.

sounds like the responses you pointed out are pretty similar to my own experiences though. such a mixed bag.
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If conversations about theft and assault happened like they do for sexual assault/harrassment:

Man A: I got mugged last year, it was pretty bad, so I'm a lot more cautious around strange men now.
Man B: Woah, that sounds crazy. But how do you know he was trying to mug you?
Man A: Huh?
Man B: Well maybe he was just awkward and didn't know how to express himself.
Man A: He took my money and hit me a few times.
Man B: What were you doing for this to happen?
Man A: ...walking down the street?
Man B: No I mean, like what were you wearing, did you signal to him in any way, etc.
Man A: No dude I was literally just walking down the fucking street.
Man B: Woah calm down dude, I'm just asking questions here. Just playing devil's advocate, there's no need to get emotional over it.
Man A: I was literally just walking minding my own business.
Man B: Yeah ok but where were you at the time? Like you should know better than to walk around in Glasgow by yourself.
Man A: Why do you keep making it out like it's my fault I got mugged?
Man B: I'm not, I'm really not. I just think you need to accept a certain amount of personal responsibility here for not being aware of your surrounding and also not blame all men for how one guy acted.
Man A: You're telling me that I should have been more aware of strangers but also that I shouldn't be wary of strangers?
Man B: Alright fair enough but it could have been worse, I don't know why you're making a big deal out of it
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I'm still trying to figure out what triggers the defensiveness of people who claim to not be a contributor to the issues. maybe it's to defend unsaid feelings without actually claiming ownership of those feelings to minimize labeling?
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We don't live in a rape culture. People who think we do are ignorant of history and don't know what a real rape culture is.
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Rape culture doesn't exist in America. Anyone who thinks there is has no idea what a rape culture is.
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RickyTheBAWSE posted...

and how do you feel about the ones who share the narrative that men need to check themselves in behavior/rhetoric that the vocal women view as toxic?

What are you even saying here?

Cause I'm sure the fuck not particularly pc or social justicey but some behaviour really does need to get checked.

An annoying vocal minority doesn't change that fact.
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CanuckCowboy posted...

RickyTheBAWSE posted...

and how do you feel about the ones who share the narrative that men need to check themselves in behavior/rhetoric that the vocal women view as toxic?

What are you even saying here?

Cause I'm sure the fuck not particularly pc or social justicey but some behaviour really does need to get checked.

An annoying vocal minority doesn't change that fact.

I was tired when I typed that. I was asking how you feel about men who agree with the idea that men need to control themselves, but you already answered the question.
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Men get raped too
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This American Life was interesting this week. Had a conversation with an Australian guy who would cat call. His favorite one was to go to a large group of girls and slap one of their asses. He would only do it to one so the others would be jealous. He didn't do it to girls who were alone and he didn't grab though. That would be creepy.

It's weird hearing these guys argue that it's doing no harm. He thought he was fine because girls would only ever laugh or smile when he did it apparently. While some girls can be bothered or scared by it none of the girls he did it to felt that way! He's not that kind of guy.
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Do y'all know rape culture is not literally about allowing people to rape, right? It's the environments and rhetoric that are allowed to flourish in male communities (and starting in the home as children) that contribute to the overall perception society has about rape and sexual assault.
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pinky0926 posted...

If conversations about theft and assault happened like they do for sexual assault/harrassment:

Man A: I got mugged last year, it was pretty bad, so I'm a lot more cautious around strange men now.
Man B: Woah, that sounds crazy. But how do you know he was trying to mug you?
Man A: Huh?
Man B: Well maybe he was just awkward and didn't know how to express himself.
Man A: He took my money and hit me a few times.
Man B: What were you doing for this to happen?
Man A: ...walking down the street?
Man B: No I mean, like what were you wearing, did you signal to him in any way, etc.
Man A: No dude I was literally just walking down the fucking street.
Man B: Woah calm down dude, I'm just asking questions here. Just playing devil's advocate, there's no need to get emotional over it.
Man A: I was literally just walking minding my own business.
Man B: Yeah ok but where were you at the time? Like you should know better than to walk around in Glasgow by yourself.
Man A: Why do you keep making it out like it's my fault I got mugged?
Man B: I'm not, I'm really not. I just think you need to accept a certain amount of personal responsibility here for not being aware of your surroundings and also not tar all men with the same brush for how one guy acted.
Man A: You're telling me that I should have been more aware of strangers but also that I shouldn't be wary of strangers?
Man B: Alright fair enough but it could have been worse, I don't know why you're making a big deal out of it

If conversations about theft and assault happened like they do for sexual assault/harrassment:

Roommate A: Looks like we were robbed while we were out. Did you lock the door?
Roommate B: Why should I have to do that?
Roommate A: ...To protect our stuff...
Roommate B: That's bullshit, we should just teach robbers to not steal!
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MorbidFaithless posted...

Do y'all know rape culture is not literally about allowing people to rape, right? It's the environments and rhetoric that are allowed to flourish in male communities (and starting in the home as children) that contribute to the overall perception society has about rape and sexual assault.

And society's perception of rape is that it's a heinous crime. So what's the issue?
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culture...

meh...
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tennisdude818 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

If conversations about theft and assault happened like they do for sexual assault/harrassment:

Man A: I got mugged last year, it was pretty bad, so I'm a lot more cautious around strange men now.
Man B: Woah, that sounds crazy. But how do you know he was trying to mug you?
Man A: Huh?
Man B: Well maybe he was just awkward and didn't know how to express himself.
Man A: He took my money and hit me a few times.
Man B: What were you doing for this to happen?
Man A: ...walking down the street?
Man B: No I mean, like what were you wearing, did you signal to him in any way, etc.
Man A: No dude I was literally just walking down the fucking street.
Man B: Woah calm down dude, I'm just asking questions here. Just playing devil's advocate, there's no need to get emotional over it.
Man A: I was literally just walking minding my own business.
Man B: Yeah ok but where were you at the time? Like you should know better than to walk around in Glasgow by yourself.
Man A: Why do you keep making it out like it's my fault I got mugged?
Man B: I'm not, I'm really not. I just think you need to accept a certain amount of personal responsibility here for not being aware of your surroundings and also not tar all men with the same brush for how one guy acted.
Man A: You're telling me that I should have been more aware of strangers but also that I shouldn't be wary of strangers?
Man B: Alright fair enough but it could have been worse, I don't know why you're making a big deal out of it

If conversations about theft and assault happened like they do for sexual assault/harrassment:

Roommate A: Looks like we were robbed while we were out. Did you lock the door?
Roommate B: Why should I have to do that?
Roommate A: ...To protect our stuff...
Roommate B: That's bullshit, we should just teach robbers to not steal!

Problem is you can actually live your life while locking a door. Watching what you wear and every single thing you do, not so much.
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UncleBourbon33 posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

Do y'all know rape culture is not literally about allowing people to rape, right? It's the environments and rhetoric that are allowed to flourish in male communities (and starting in the home as children) that contribute to the overall perception society has about rape and sexual assault.

And society's perception of rape is that it's a heinous crime. So what's the issue?

Pinky's post is a perfect example of what the problem is. We know rape is bad. But it's clear we do not do enough about teaching consent, what actually constitutes sexual assault or harassment, and the consequences of them. Like I said, I think it starts young, in the way boys and girls are conditioned to interact with each other. Yes there will always be rape and assault. I just think we could do a lot better.
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anybody I hear even use that term is getting tuned out.

I've heard it used a handful of times IRL and probably hundreds of times online and it's always by some douchey pretentious weirdo
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l33t_iRk3n_Rm33 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

If conversations about theft and assault happened like they do for sexual assault/harrassment:

Man A: I got mugged last year, it was pretty bad, so I'm a lot more cautious around strange men now.
Man B: Woah, that sounds crazy. But how do you know he was trying to mug you?
Man A: Huh?
Man B: Well maybe he was just awkward and didn't know how to express himself.
Man A: He took my money and hit me a few times.
Man B: What were you doing for this to happen?
Man A: ...walking down the street?
Man B: No I mean, like what were you wearing, did you signal to him in any way, etc.
Man A: No dude I was literally just walking down the fucking street.
Man B: Woah calm down dude, I'm just asking questions here. Just playing devil's advocate, there's no need to get emotional over it.
Man A: I was literally just walking minding my own business.
Man B: Yeah ok but where were you at the time? Like you should know better than to walk around in Glasgow by yourself.
Man A: Why do you keep making it out like it's my fault I got mugged?
Man B: I'm not, I'm really not. I just think you need to accept a certain amount of personal responsibility here for not being aware of your surroundings and also not tar all men with the same brush for how one guy acted.
Man A: You're telling me that I should have been more aware of strangers but also that I shouldn't be wary of strangers?
Man B: Alright fair enough but it could have been worse, I don't know why you're making a big deal out of it

If conversations about theft and assault happened like they do for sexual assault/harrassment:

Roommate A: Looks like we were robbed while we were out. Did you lock the door?
Roommate B: Why should I have to do that?
Roommate A: ...To protect our stuff...
Roommate B: That's bullshit, we should just teach robbers to not steal!

Problem is you can actually live your life while locking a door. Watching what you wear and every single thing you do, not so much.

Depends on where you draw the line here. If we are talking about a girl getting grabbed on the train or something on the way to work then my analogy is not applicable. If we are talking about a girl getting shitfaced at a party after making no contingency plans with friends, then my analogy is applicable. The moral responsibility lies with the attacker, but the victim made a mistake. Using that mistake as a teachable moment for others is not "victim blaming".
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tennisdude818 posted...

l33t_iRk3n_Rm33 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

If conversations about theft and assault happened like they do for sexual assault/harrassment:

Man A: I got mugged last year, it was pretty bad, so I'm a lot more cautious around strange men now.
Man B: Woah, that sounds crazy. But how do you know he was trying to mug you?
Man A: Huh?
Man B: Well maybe he was just awkward and didn't know how to express himself.
Man A: He took my money and hit me a few times.
Man B: What were you doing for this to happen?
Man A: ...walking down the street?
Man B: No I mean, like what were you wearing, did you signal to him in any way, etc.
Man A: No dude I was literally just walking down the fucking street.
Man B: Woah calm down dude, I'm just asking questions here. Just playing devil's advocate, there's no need to get emotional over it.
Man A: I was literally just walking minding my own business.
Man B: Yeah ok but where were you at the time? Like you should know better than to walk around in Glasgow by yourself.
Man A: Why do you keep making it out like it's my fault I got mugged?
Man B: I'm not, I'm really not. I just think you need to accept a certain amount of personal responsibility here for not being aware of your surroundings and also not tar all men with the same brush for how one guy acted.
Man A: You're telling me that I should have been more aware of strangers but also that I shouldn't be wary of strangers?
Man B: Alright fair enough but it could have been worse, I don't know why you're making a big deal out of it

If conversations about theft and assault happened like they do for sexual assault/harrassment:

Roommate A: Looks like we were robbed while we were out. Did you lock the door?
Roommate B: Why should I have to do that?
Roommate A: ...To protect our stuff...
Roommate B: That's bullshit, we should just teach robbers to not steal!

Problem is you can actually live your life while locking a door. Watching what you wear and every single thing you do, not so much.

Depends on where you draw the line here. If we are talking about a girl getting grabbed on the train or something on the way to work then my analogy is not applicable. If we are talking about a girl getting shitfaced at a party after making no contingency plans with friends, then my analogy is applicable. The moral responsibility lies with the attacker, but the victim made a mistake. Using that mistake as a teachable moment for others is not "victim blaming".

is that really a mistake? a mistake means she was wrong. if she's wrong, doesn't that imply some degree of blame by default?

not that I'm saying you're right or wrong for feeling that way, but it is was it is if that's the underlying message. I think the argument in that type of situation should be whether or not she was wise. not right or wrong.

the lesson to take from that, imo, should be to hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst of human nature. in a perfect world, you could get drunk anywhere, pass out and not have to worry about waking up sodomized. you might wake up in the back of a police car, but not sexually assaulted.

unfortunately we don't live in that world. there are opportunist everywhere.
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RickyTheBAWSE posted...

is that really a mistake? a mistake means she was wrong. if she's wrong, doesn't that imply some degree of blame by default?

not that I'm saying you're right or wrong for feeling that way, but it is was it is if that's the underlying message. I think the argument in that type of situation should be whether or not she was wise. not right or wrong.

the lesson to take from that, imo, should be to hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst of human nature. in a perfect world, you could get drunk anywhere, pass out and not have to worry about waking up sodomized. you might wake up in the back of a police car, but not sexually assaulted.

unfortunately we don't live in that world. there are opportunist everywhere.

This is why I seperated her mistake from the moral responsibility of the attacker. Sexual assault is just an example of a bad person taking advantage of another. That also applies to people who would rob your home while you are out of town. We live in a world where we all have to learn how to not be taken advantage of. It sucks that women have to be advised to watch over their drinks, but if I had a daughter I would damn well teach her to keep an eye on her drink.

The fact that there are dirtbags who slip roofies doesn't mean we have a rape culture any more than there is a theft or murder culture. We hate rapists so much that they even get targeted for abuse in prison.
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