Current Events > however it is our responsibility as women to dress modestly and be classy.

(+) Yeah! (+)

dressing in a provocative/sexual way entices the wrong crowd"

Can you believe how triggered some people are getting off this Gabby Douglas quote? She's not saying sexual harassment is okay. It's just some very true statement about how dressing a certain way will draw attention to yourself.
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I'm not sure I'd frame it as womens' responsibility though, that's a bit ridiculous
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I don't think she means it as sole responsibility. It's more so do what you can reasonably do to prevent it. Like she said the gymnastic outfit is fine.
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I agree in case where women try to say hitting on them is harassment. If youre going to dress nicely, expect people to find you attractive

However, having to deal with that at work is BS
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Low key sexism, people should dress how they want, however if a woman is dressed with her tits and ass on display they should know some men will harass them and not act surprised when it happens.
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Squall28 posted...

Can you believe how triggered some people are getting off this Gabby Douglas quote? She's not saying sexual harassment is okay. It's just some very true statement about how dressing a certain way will draw attention to yourself.

It's weird that she said this regarding a case where hundreds of underage girls were abused
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The military teaches you to not make yourself a target

Should enemies just not be doing evil things? Yes.
But should you also do things to keep them from affecting you? Yes.
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The underlying assumption of statements like this is that men are untameable perverts who simply cannot resist their base urges if a 14 year old shows a bit of leg. Have some respect for your gender.
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Asherlee10 posted...

Offworlder1 posted...

Low key sexism, people should dress how they want, however if a woman is dressed with her tits and ass on display they should know some men will harass them and not act surprised when it happens.

Agreed, but that doesn't give anyone the right to harass another person.

The OP is sexist and victim blaming.

The quote never said they are given the right to harass. It's saying there are measures one can take to lower the chances. EinegutePerson summed it up perfectly.

Should enemies just not be doing evil things? Yes.
But should you also do things to keep them from affecting you? Yes.

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Intro2Logic posted...

The underlying assumption of statements like this is that men are untameable perverts who simply cannot resist their base urges if a 14 year old shows a bit of leg. Have some respect for your gender.

No it's not. The assumption is that there are some bad men out there, and you don't want to draw their attention. Yes, they are the problem, not you. But until they are taken care of, you should watch your back.
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The problem with statements like this (and their perception) is that it only tells one side of the story.

Although people shouldn't steal, they still do. And there are programs (both preventative and rehabilitation programs) to try to reduce crime. However, authorities still tell you to do your part and keep your property safe by locking your doors and using good judgement. Not that it's your fault if you get robbed, but prevention and education only go so far. We have to tackle it from both sides.

People assume that when someone tells a woman to not dress "provocatively", they are blaming the woman if she gets harassed or assaulted. While it is true that we must stop the source of the attacks (rapists and harassers), there will still be people like that out there and everyone has to do their part to be cautious.
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I don't get how that's saying that at all.Harassment is intolerable period. But at present since we can't stop all of it, it's worth considering not getting certain people's attention.
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She's wrong
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Asherlee10 posted...

I see the action of dressing differently to avoid sexual harassment as an indirect way to say that someone else has the right to harass you and you've taken steps to minimize that.

This is worlds different than not walking down a dark alley alone at night, for example.

It basically comes down to what you think harassment is, I guess. If you dress to be attractive, men will find you attractive. Now what those men do, not all of it is "harassment". If a lot of men are coming up to you and asking you for your phone number, but when you say no they don't make a scene. I think you should expect that. Then there are plenty of men that will either treat you like shit for rejecting them or just will keep trying, and both of those are harassment which needs to stop and is in no way the fault of the woman.

But in this day in age, people now think men finding someone attractive and asking them out is also harassment, which IMO, isn't in the slightest.

She should be able to wear what she wants to feel safe, but if you are attractive people are going to be attracted to you. It sucks, but it also sucks that celebrities get bothered out in public by fans. It's not their fault they're entertaining and likeable, so people like them.
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I mean, there's also the assumption that the only women who get harassed are those dressing provocatively. Do you think harassment takes winters off?
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Antifar posted...

I mean, there's also the assumption that the only women who get harassed are those dressing provocatively. Do you think harassment takes winters off?

Her sentiment doesn't have to stop there.
Dressing less provocatively can be a start. But what about always leaving with friends, keeping yourself in a safe situation, etc

Sure, having a female friend on hand won't ALWAYS stop them, but it certainly deters a lot of people because two is harder to subdue than one.

So it's more about the principle of being safety minded and vigilant, instead of expecting everyone to leave you alone just because you have the freedom to dress how you like.

Minimizing our risks.
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Asherlee10 posted...

Squall28 posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

Offworlder1 posted...

Low key sexism, people should dress how they want, however if a woman is dressed with her tits and ass on display they should know some men will harass them and not act surprised when it happens.

Agreed, but that doesn't give anyone the right to harass another person.

The OP is sexist and victim blaming.

The quote never said they are given the right to harass. It's saying there are measures one can take to lower the chances. EinegutePerson summed it up perfectly.

Should enemies just not be doing evil things? Yes.
But should you also do things to keep them from affecting you? Yes.

I simply don't agree, though.

I see the action of dressing differently to avoid sexual harassment as an indirect way to say that someone else has the right to harass you and you've taken steps to minimize that.

This is worlds different than not walking down a dark alley alone at night, for example.

It's cause and effect. And that it happens is inexcusable. But it does happen. And simply stating steps to reduce the amount of unwanted and ungarnered attention a woman might receive is not sexist. It's there for each woman to use that information how she sees fit. I don't see this woman's statement as anything other than a PSA.
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Antifar posted...

I mean, there's also the assumption that the only women who get harassed are those dressing provocatively. Do you think harassment takes winters off?

yea this is a big one too

my sister in law for example, she dresses very conservatively but even in those outfits she still deals with regular harassment from people because unless shes wearing a giant smock or something you can still make out her "features". in her case she is a target just because of how she was born
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Men are 100% at fault for rape and we should instill in boys the imperative to respect women, take no for an answer, and treat everybody as equals. As a father of two very young sons, I hope to do all of this.

That being said, I'm also a father of two young daughters, so I'm also going to try to teach them to know that there are a lot of shitbag boys out there that want to fuck them consensually or not and to act accordingly, and high-minded ideals for how all men should react shouldn't get in the way of reality and expecting the worst from the guys they meet at parties.
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Asherlee10 posted...

thanosibe posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

Squall28 posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

Offworlder1 posted...

Low key sexism, people should dress how they want, however if a woman is dressed with her tits and ass on display they should know some men will harass them and not act surprised when it happens.

Agreed, but that doesn't give anyone the right to harass another person.

The OP is sexist and victim blaming.

The quote never said they are given the right to harass. It's saying there are measures one can take to lower the chances. EinegutePerson summed it up perfectly.

Should enemies just not be doing evil things? Yes.
But should you also do things to keep them from affecting you? Yes.

I simply don't agree, though.

I see the action of dressing differently to avoid sexual harassment as an indirect way to say that someone else has the right to harass you and you've taken steps to minimize that.

This is worlds different than not walking down a dark alley alone at night, for example.

It's cause and effect. And that it happens is inexcusable. But it does happen. And simply stating steps to reduce the amount of unwanted and ungarnered attention a woman might receive is not sexist. It's there for each woman to use that information how she sees fit. I don't see this woman's statement as anything other than a PSA.

I agree with taking steps to keep you safe, I just don't agree that altering what you wear is one of those steps. It creates a slippery slope and we see that slope in Islam-heavy countries.

Again, there is a difference in not walking down a dark alley alone at night and choosing to wear a baggy shirt over a nicer shirt.

I mostly trying to point out the statement is benign at worst and benevolent at best. But our society is reactionary, and rarely able to look at statements at face value.

Whether or not a gal changing her attire is going to stop unwanted attention is a whole different discussion/study to be had as to what triggers sexual predators and every day male and female interactions and everything between that.
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Asherlee10 posted...

In a workplace, that makes it sexual harassment.

I don't agree with this. All the time, everytime?
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Asherlee10 posted...

I agree with taking steps to keep you safe, I just don't agree that altering what you wear is one of those steps.

Would you say you've never noticed a difference in how men react to women who are covered up vs. women who are showing a lot of cleavage or are in short skirts?
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I just don't understand how people still talk about it like this, as though the people who are likely to harass you are just doing so based on your visual appearance. It doesn't jive with the reality of the threat.
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Balrog0 posted...

I just don't understand how people still talk about it like this, as though the people who are likely to harass you are just doing so based on your visual appearance.

That_Happened posted...

Would you say you've never noticed a difference in how men react to women who are covered up vs. women who are showing a lot of cleavage or are in short skirts?

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That_Happened posted...

Balrog0 posted...

I just don't understand how people still talk about it like this, as though the people who are likely to harass you are just doing so based on your visual appearance.

That_Happened posted...

Would you say you've never noticed a difference in how men react to women who are covered up vs. women who are showing a lot of cleavage or are in short skirts?

sure, I've noticed a difference

what are we talking about here, exactly? with respect to sexual assault, which is what the tweet she was responding to was about, I don't think this is super meaningful. the people who are most overt about oggling someone aren't necessarily going to be the people who are most likely to sexually assault them, and I wouldn't conflate the two
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Victim blaming is trending again, I see.
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Balrog0 posted...

sure, I've noticed a difference

what are we talking about here, exactly? with respect to sexual assault, which is what the tweet she was responding to was about, I don't think this is super meaningful. the people who are most overt about oggling someone aren't necessarily going to be the people who are most likely to sexually assault them, and I wouldn't conflate the two

We're talking about sexual assault. And I think dressing in skimpy clothing not only increases the number of guys who will ogle you, but it also increases the number of guys who will get handsy with you. Even if it's not strangers in bars and it's guys the woman actually knows who are just looking for an opportunity.
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Asherlee10 posted...

I don't think altering what you wear is the right course of action because it creates the slippery slope that we see in Islam-heavy countries.

And I don't think believing "I can wear whatever I want and it's up to everyone else to align their beliefs and biological responses to what I would consider appropriate" is realistic. I agree that we shoudl avoid the slippery slope that leads to women getting covered from head to toe but I don't think it's wrong to say that if you present your body for everyone to look at you're going to get a ton of unwanted attention.
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she worded the quote stupidly
it should be "women should be encouraged to take precautions to improve their safety, just as men should be"

the world is a chaotic place, ideal conditions do not exist 100% of the time, laws can't protect you at all times
society's not going to create some magical safety barrier that protects you from all danger while you prance around with your eyes closed

it is entirely possible to acknowledge both the casual dangers a woman can face in society while also encouraging her to learn how to protect herself
in my opinion, every child (male or female) should be raised to be aware of that knowledge because it reinforces their odds of survival

if laws and PSAs were perfect defenses for sexual assault and rape, they wouldn't be prominent issues...
which means precautions are a value to the intelligent
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That_Happened posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

I don't think altering what you wear is the right course of action because it creates the slippery slope that we see in Islam-heavy countries.

And I don't think believing "I can wear whatever I want and it's up to everyone else to align their beliefs and biological responses to what I would consider appropriate" is realistic. I agree that we shoudl avoid the slippery slope that leads to women getting covered from head to toe but I don't think it's wrong to say that if you present your body for everyone to look at you're going to get a ton of unwanted attention.

Jfc
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Asherlee10 posted...

That_Happened posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

I don't think altering what you wear is the right course of action because it creates the slippery slope that we see in Islam-heavy countries.

And I don't think believing "I can wear whatever I want and it's up to everyone else to align their beliefs and biological responses to what I would consider appropriate" is realistic. I agree that we shoudl avoid the slippery slope that leads to women getting covered from head to toe but I don't think it's wrong to say that if you present your body for everyone to look at you're going to get a ton of unwanted attention.

The problem I have with your statements is that you seem to be suggesting that a man is entitled to sexually harass a woman because of what she is wearing.

You said this earlier and the response was:

Squall28 posted...

The quote never said they are given the right to harass. It's saying there are measures one can take to lower the chances.

No one is saying anyone is "entitled" to sexually harass anyone. But the fact is shitty, terrible people exist and they're always going to exist. The response is "Well teach them not to be shitty!" and that's not realistic. By itself that's not a good enough strategy.

I lock the doors to my house, I lock my car, I don't put expensive things in the window of my home, I don't leave my credit card out for others to see, I don't leave my phone out and unlocked for people to go through. I take the necessary precautions to keep myself safe. I'm still upset if I get robbed, but I always make sure I've done as much as I reasonably could've done to keep myself safe.
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Asherlee10 posted...

I agree with taking steps to keep you safe, I just don't agree that altering what you wear is one of those steps. It creates a slippery slope and we see that slope in Islam-heavy countries.

Again, there is a difference in not walking down a dark alley alone at night and choosing to wear a baggy shirt over a nicer shirt.

100% this

Squall28 posted...

It's just some very true statement about how dressing a certain way will draw attention to yourself.

the deal is mostly people who use this kind of shit for the "she was asking for it" excuse in rape / sexual assault.

I don't think people literally mean dressing in a provocative way is not expected to provoke people.
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Deadpool_18 posted...

That_Happened posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

I don't think altering what you wear is the right course of action because it creates the slippery slope that we see in Islam-heavy countries.

And I don't think believing "I can wear whatever I want and it's up to everyone else to align their beliefs and biological responses to what I would consider appropriate" is realistic. I agree that we shoudl avoid the slippery slope that leads to women getting covered from head to toe but I don't think it's wrong to say that if you present your body for everyone to look at you're going to get a ton of unwanted attention.

Jfc. Its YOUR responsibility to control your impulses around beautiful women.

But I wasn't talking about me. I have no problem controlling my impulses around beautiful women in skimpy clothing. But there are a lot of idiotic neanderthal guys (as well as opportunistic, scummy guys, and well-meaning but socially awkward losers) who don't have good impulse control. Wearing provocative clothing and expecting no one to be provoked is ridiculous. Again, this doesn't excuse the guys who commit sexual assault--they should be buried under the prison. But I disagree with the idea that "altering what you wear is not an effective deterrent."
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Balrog0 posted...

I just don't understand how people still talk about it like this, as though the people who are likely to harass you are just doing so based on your visual appearance. It doesn't jive with the reality of the threat.

This. Sexual assault/rape has more to do with opportunity than what a person is wearing.

Does your dress affect how many cat calls you get? I guess maybe. That certainly doesn't seem to be what the question is about though when it comes to "How to protect yourself".
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Squall28 posted...

Can you believe how triggered some people are getting off this Gabby Douglas quote

They're getting rightfully pissed off because she said it in response to allegations about the team doctor being a serial rapist. The context is pretty damn important in this case.
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Intro2Logic posted...

The underlying assumption of statements like this is that men are untameable perverts who simply cannot resist their base urges if a 14 year old shows a bit of leg. Have some respect for your gender.

*shrugs*
One toe is a little crampt but for the most part the shoe definitely fits.
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DevsBro posted...

Intro2Logic posted...

The underlying assumption of statements like this is that men are untameable perverts who simply cannot resist their base urges if a 14 year old shows a bit of leg. Have some respect for your gender.

*shrugs*
One toe is a little crampt but for the most part the shoe definitely fits.

Like this?

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Intro2Logic posted...

The underlying assumption of statements like this is that men are untameable perverts who simply cannot resist their base urges if a 14 year old shows a bit of leg. Have some respect for your gender.

Whenever these discussions come up I start to think of a few news reports I've seen of women crowdsurfing at concerts. All it took was a woman jumping on top of the crowd in a bathing suit and almost instantly a swarm of male hands started groping her, and in some cases unfastening her bikini and stripping it off of her. A few of the bands would call it out and try to stop it from happening, but it rarely happened so blatantly to the women in t-shirts and shorts or jeans. The shitty guys in that crowd took advantage of their opportunity to cop a feel and they didn't care about the age of the woman above them.

So while I don't think ALL guys are like that, there are clearly enough of them out there.
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The Admiral posted...

Squall28 posted...

Can you believe how triggered some people are getting off this Gabby Douglas quote

They're getting rightfully pissed off because she said it in response to allegations about the team doctor being a serial rapist. The context is pretty damn important in this case.

Even Admiral understands the problem.
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I feel like the discussion isn't even properly directed at the two sides.

Those in favor of her statement is just saying there are some safety measures you can take. I don't get how the other side interprets this as thinking sexual harassment is ok when people are flatout saying it is not.
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Sure, fine. The quote by itself isn't bad. It's when you add context that it starts to enrage people.

She said this in response to the allegations that her teammate had been sexually assaulted by their olympic doctor. She's insinuating that her teammate did something wrong, which is not the case
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