Board 8 > Doki Doki Literature Club...

(+) Yeah! (+)

Kinda wish I'd somehow been able to go into the game completely blind (in the sense that I would have thought it was a normal dating sim instead of a game with a horrifying twist) but the execution was still great. That was a nice trip.

I'm late to this party but hey. Would recommend the game to anyone reading the topic who hasn't already played it! It's free!
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Game is fantastic. I'm curious on your opinion of Monika. I find her really sympathetic and tragic... but I also feel like I'm stupid to do so.
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Great game
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trdl23 posted...

Game is fantastic. I'm curious on your opinion of Monika. I find her really sympathetic and tragic... but I also feel like I'm stupid to do so.

She did a bunch of horrible things but did so after going through a pretty legitimate existential crisis. Pretty easy to see why she would be unable to see her classmates as 'real' after that. Considering that Sayori went off the deep end immediately after gaining a similar self-awareness (in two different scenarios!), Monika almost seems sane in comparison. Plus she tries to put everything right in the end. I'd say I edge towards the 'sympathetic and tragic' angle.
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I was of two minds about Monika. On the one hand I can see why she went insane (the same revelation hitting Sayori drives her equally nuts), but on the other hand, all of her "Tee hee wasn't it funny how people horribly died" stuff robbed my sympathy really quickly
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Of course I cared enough to make a backup Monika before I deleted her, then put her back in the Characters folder after it was all over so <_<
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I'm hoping the Easter Eggs that were datamined pay off and have some tie-in to DDLC.
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Yeah. I guess it's hard for me to blame Monika that much, even when she's lightly brushing off the deaths of her friends. She blatantly states that they're not even real people to her because they have no real agency of their own which is...not too far from the truth. I'd probably feel a lot different if she didn't end up deleting herself and resetting everything once she realized what she'd done, but yeah.
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Actually I'm kind of curious what happens if you make backups and try to replace the various people as Monika deletes their files. I know the game reacts accordingly if you try doing things like preemptively deleting Monika
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Topic should be marked for spoilers but yeah

I think it was cool and definitely worth finishing. I'm glad I knew it had a twist, and I think the game is designed in that way. Especially with the warning that first pops up in the game, and the overly silly presentation. It drags quite a bit in the first arc, so knowing there's a payoff is really important.

That's one of the best things the game does I think. You know going in there's a twist, but the first arc is justttttt long enough that you get legitimately bored, and wonder if you were bamboozled in the first place. That it really is just a dumb little VN. It's a brilliant way to bring your guard down knowing that in the world of the internet, you will have been spoiled at least a little about the twist. This effect happened perfectly for me, right during the baking date with Natsuki. Of course, the next scene is where shit goes down.

Another good execution is how they handled the scene where reveal Sayori's suicide. It was very obvious and predictable that it would happen, ever since the "I love you" scene or even before. But they coupled the emotional in-game character twist with a very surprising 4th-wall gameplay twist and a total shift in tone, which made the predictability of the suicide irrelevant. I had to turn the lights on in my room because it made me legit uncomfortable, which a plain suicide scene would not have.

Overall I wish there was more puzzles and weird glitchy things to play with throughout the rest of the game. Playing with the chr files was really cool and I wanted more of that instead of just more creepypasta. I especially wish they focused more on the characters and gave them a good payoff in the end, instead of just being vehicles for Monika's manipulation. Sayori ends up being the only actually good character because of that (which sucks cuz #TeamNatsuki), and it makes the 2nd arc feel half baked.

Monika was cool. She's an allegory for the illusion of total control that an artist has over their creations due to the need for an audience/player to actually interact with the art and give it a meaning which the artist cannot control. But there was not much else to her character beyond that, so it's hard to be emotionally attached. Again, it leaves Just Sayori as a good character.
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DeathChicken posted...

Actually I'm kind of curious what happens if you make backups and try to replace the various people as Monika deletes their files. I know the game reacts accordingly if you try doing things like preemptively deleting Monika

I tried various combinations of this and the only things you can do are deleting Monika or Sayori before the game starts. Deleting the other two at any point doesn't do anything.
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Foolo, in regard to the last point, perhaps your interpretation is similar to mine but I'm not realizing it?
To me, everything Monika was doing, she was doing out of desperation. I don't think she's "in love" with the player or trying to maintain control -- I think she's trying to find some way, any way out of the prison she's in, and the player is the only "hole in the wall" that she can see.

I'm not very smart, or I'd be more poignant... sorry.
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On that note, Monika being suddenly voiced during the ending was an unexpected punch
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foolm0r0n posted...

It drags quite a bit in the first arc, so knowing there's a payoff is really important.

What? The first arc is great. The whole game would've been really good if it was all like that.
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I didn't see it as trying to escape the game (prison) or anything like that. I think she is quite content to be in there, given the final space room scene. I think all she wants is to make things go the way she intended. She doesn't really care about the player necessarily, but she realizes she NEEDS the player there or else what she has created has no meaning.

That's why I think it's the artist's paradox. The observer will ruin your art, but without the observer, your art is meaningless. The poem-sharing parts of the game highlight this paradox as well.
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#TeamYuri is the only acceptable one

Monika didn't actually love the player. The player was just the only thing that was real in a fake world. She was as obssessed as Yuri, just in a different way. Her realizing this is what drives her decisions in the very final parts of the game.

Sayori is very sympathetic but I wouldn't say her character is better than any of the others.
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foolm0r0n posted...

I didn't see it as trying to escape the game (prison) or anything like that.

She definitely wants to be out of the game - think she outright states it a few times. This is just the second-best thing she can do.
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I liked Monika but didn't find her particularly "sympathetic." She was psycho and controlling and and ruthless and obsessive. Basically, she was adorable. #TeamMonika

(Also, I didn't find Sayori particularly sympathetic. Maybe I'm just heartless but I thought it was kinda pathetic that she committed suicide over a dude saying he didn't love her. Have some self-respect! I mean, I know the point is she doesn't have self-respect, but in that case I don't respect her either.)
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In the interest of "no bulli the Sayori," she committed suicide because Monika ramped her depression into overdrive. It's even suggested in Sayori's last "poem" that she put the idea in Sayori's head through speech instead of scripting.
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trdl23 posted...

In the interest of "no bulli the Sayori," she committed suicide because Monika ramped her depression into overdrive. It's even suggested in Sayori's last "poem" that she put the idea in Sayori's head through speech instead of scripting.

When Sayori is having one of her freakouts she mentions that she should just do 'what she told me to' or something like that. Monika definitely told her to off herself.
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Drakeryn posted...

Maybe I'm just heartless but I thought it was kinda pathetic that she committed suicide over a dude saying he didn't love her.

She definitely didn't, which is why she still does it if you say you love her. She does it because she finally accepts that nothing can get rid of the "rainclouds" that have been plaguing her her entirely life.

That's why she's a great foil to Monika. She shows that even if everything DOES go perfectly and exactly how you want, it doesn't mean you will magically be happy, especially if you're inflicted with depression. It's also a great twist to the "choices don't matter" criticism of VNs.
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Oh, I never went back and tried that. That's a fair enough reason then.
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One thing I wonder is how much of the girls' problems was magnified by Monika. Did Yuri cut herself in Act 1? Was Natsuki's dad that bad? Would Sayori have ever taken that ultimatum because of her depression? I'm not sure where the line between them and Monika's manipulation & personality editing is.
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Hangings are an actual trigger for me so i literally had a huge anxiety attack and i really didn't appreciate it being a jump scare. It would have been easier to deal with if it wasn't presented in just a jump scare fashion but instead like dangan ronpa death style. I literally broke down crying for like 3 hours because of it. so my distaste for the game strongly stems from it. It did stuff pretty clever like acts 3 and 4. I hated act 2 and got bored. Ironically, I did wanna date monika originally so hey, there we go.
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I honestly think it's one of the most shockingly effective things I've ever read.

Sayori killing herself if you say you love her is due to Monika's messing with the files. One of the second run secret poems says as much.
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KamikazePotato posted...

Did Yuri cut herself in Act 1?

I believe so. During her festival prep, the main comments on how sharp her knife is, and she says something like "yeah it can slice through skin with ease." Then iirc the main leaves the room for a few minutes and when he comes back, Yuri is hurriedly rolling up her sleeve. Based on that I kind of assumed she was a cutter even before the act 2 reveal.
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KamikazePotato posted...

One thing I wonder is how much of the girls' problems was magnified by Monika. Did Yuri cut herself in Act 1? Was Natsuki's dad that bad? Would Sayori have ever taken that ultimatum because of her depression? I'm not sure where the line between them and Monika's manipulation & personality editing is.

This is why I think the game went downhill after act 1's ending. It's like it reduced all the characters to their (Monika's) writing, and made it impossible to genuinely care about them, even in retrospect. Like I thought Sayori's 1st arc was a really interesting and powerful and real message about depression, and also Natsuki's domestic abuse and Yuri's cutting, but by the end of the game all of that was sacrificed for the sake of creepy 4th wall breaking.

Although this could all be some sort of triple-meta thing where we are supposed to hate Monika (representing the actual author of the game) for ruining what could've been some really good storylines. Was it worth it for the meta punchline like this? I don't think so.

Well, I don't think it turned out so bad in the end. But it did allow me to very easily forget about the game, and even talking about it now or listening to the music I'm fairly apathetic. Compared to Undertale, which through all the meta stuff made sure to keep the in-game characters real and keep the emotional connection there.
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I think the comparison between games is a little unfair. Undertale was a full-fledged game to which Toby dedicated years. Meanwhile, DDLC feels more like a "proof-of-concept" project for Dan Salvato as he prepares for bigger and better things -- especially since the hidden file easter eggs seem to indicate said bigger and better thing will have a lot more information come out next year.

Edit: Regarding the characters, I thought it was actually cool to see them try to resist Monika's meddling. Natsuki's letter for the player to help Yuri is a prime example; Monika obviously didn't think Natsuki would figure out a bit of what was going on and had to assume direct control right after.

Kind of throws dirt at Monika's assertion that all the other girls were fake, and while they obviously weren't as self aware as Monika, they definitely still had their own identities.
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DDLC also took 2 years apparently, and it shows. It really has a lot of thought put into it, and everything is very well executed and very intentional. Obviously the scopes are different but that doesn't really have much to do wit hit. I just think it cared too much about the meta stuff and not enough about the characters, which creates some cool moments but also ruined some.
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I think Act 2 and beyond still has some strong character moments, although it's diluted due to Monika's meddling. Natsuki's secret letter of help to you was one of my favorite moments in the game.
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I just started this game tonight. I'm through two poems and I think I already have at least one thing figured out. Feel free to answer in spoiler tags; I won't read anything under them in this topic until I'm completely done.

I'm anticipating Monika being the video game itself, or something along those lines. The first poem was about the view from inside the computer screen, and the second one was about what it's rendering at the moment. The bit of advice directly afterwards about making sure to save your game at critical junctures pretty much sealed it for me.

As for the other characters, I'm not really getting anything yet. I have a few theories, but they're all completely off the wall and I have no idea how they'd fit into the whole Monika bit. All I know about the game is that the #1 tag on Steam is Psychological Horror, so surely something weird is going down, but whether it's all about Monika or if everyone's something weird is 100% up in the air for me.
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Humans aren't two-dimensional creatures. I think you'd know that better than anyone.
Yeah OK, I'm spot-on, huh.
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MrSmartGuy posted...

Humans aren't two-dimensional creatures. I think you'd know that better than anyone.
Yeah OK, I'm spot-on, huh.

It's not really hidden from you.
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Just went over to Sayori's house after making my poems for her 2 of the first 3 days.

Nothing happened to me. I've always been like this. You're just seeing it for the first time.
What are you talking about?
You're really gonna make me say it, aren't you? I guess I have no choice this time. The thing is...

My smile got bigger and bigger as this conversation went on, and then....... well, I have to say this is not at all what I expected.
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........ I'm beginning to get a bit worried about the word suicide being an option for the poems.
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Woo impromptu playthrough topic
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Well, I was hoping someone in Discord had played so I could discuss it there, but no one's in there, so I went to the next-best place, your topic.

Oh god, is Yuri a serial killer in the making
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Hi Monika I see you've decided to take over Sayori's place on the title screen. I'm sure nothing weird will come of this.
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Have fun
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I'm just going through what used to be New Game first. I know it was very heavy-handed in telling me it's not like this is a game or something where I can load a mistake, but I wanna see where this road takes me since I've already started down it.
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...... Oh never mind, I can't even if I wanted to. Oh game, you little devil you!
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http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/010/390/pC8jf5t4eWCDKcMu.jpg
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Nice special poem.
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Monika please I'm trying to read the text here.
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Oh I think I see. So my new guess after reading Monika's first poem the second time through is that this game is about Monika being a sentient dating sim girl who gets frustrated from being ignored and manipulates the way the game plays by any means necessary, so you'll eventually be forced to end up with her.
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Didn't take long for more evidence of that to come into play. I really don't like when the game goes silent on me....
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Oh my fucking god, Yuri knows. This is kinda wonderful.
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Another day passes, and it's time for the club meeting already.
I've gotten a little more comfortable here over the past couple days.

Fuck off DDLC.
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This is fun to watch
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I hate this.
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