Board 8 > Star Wars: The Last Jedi: Spoiler Thread Episode III

(+) Yeah! (+)

I have to wonder how peoples opinion of this movie might change based on how episode IX plays out. This whole movie is basically a setup for the big final act, so if the plot points end in satisfying way, will people look back on this movie in a positive light?
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Wedge Antilles posted...

I have to wonder how peoples opinion of this movie might change based on how episode IX plays out. This whole movie is basically a setup for the big final act, so if the plot points end in satisfying way, will people look back on this movie in a positive light?

Well, I mean, you can't really properly assess it until the final movie is there to see how it sets it up, but there is always going to be major gripes about certain things regarding the non-setup issues.
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I think The Last Jedi will probably remain my favorite of the sequel trilogy. I'm afraid the next movie will be bogged down from all the "fans" bitching about stupid shit. So they'll have to play it more safe to "please everybody" even though that's not even close to possible.

Hopefully they just say fuck it and do the story they want to tell.
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I think VIII kinda buried most of the plot threads I was potentially interested in to be honest by toeing the line so closely. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be hyped up for in IX.
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AquaArcane posted...

I think The Last Jedi will probably remain my favorite of the sequel trilogy. I'm afraid the next movie will be bogged down from all the "fans" bitching about stupid shit. So they'll have to play it more safe to "please everybody" even though that's not even close to possible.

Hopefully they just say fuck it and do the story they want to tell.

The story Rian Johnson wants to tell and the story Abrams wants to tell do not overlap. Abrams is gonna do the 1st and 3rd movies. Johnson did the 2nd.
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Abrams is back on IX, so I don't have a lot of faith.
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Lopen posted...

I think VIII kinda buried most of the plot threads I was potentially interested in to be honest by toeing the line so closely. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be hyped up for in IX.

The incompetent First Order led by a whiny, angsty Dark Side Force User who really probably isn't even truly evil vs the Non-existent Resistance led by better than Jedi Masters Untrained Rey and her army of Stable Boys who saw one person once who broke into their stables and now can force move things due to it.
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I know Abrams is back, that was another point for my concern. Although I don't hate the guy at all, I don't mind what he did with Force Awakens, I think it's still a great movie... just kinda shallow. Doesn't seem like he's much of a risk taker, unfortunately.
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Abrams is really starting to lose his luster nowadays.
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AquaArcane posted...

I know Abrams is back, that was another point for my concern. Although I don't hate the guy at all, I don't mind what he did with Force Awakens, I think it's still a great movie... just kinda shallow. Doesn't seem like he's much of a risk taker, unfortunately.

Episode VII was confirmed to have been mostly outlined how they wanted it to be done by a Disney Committee. Abrams just put his touches on it. Then Rian Johnson had free reign with VIII.
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Wedge Antilles posted...

I have to wonder how peoples opinion of this movie might change based on how episode IX plays out. This whole movie is basically a setup for the big final act, so if the plot points end in satisfying way, will people look back on this movie in a positive light?

Weren't people saying the exact same thing when VII came out? You know, how it was meant to set up the rest of the new trilogy and would look a lot better after VIII was released?
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Into Darkness sucked, I doubt there were a lot of restrictions there.
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AquaArcane posted...

I'm afraid the next movie will be bogged down from all the "fans" bitching about stupid shit. So they'll have to play it more safe to "please everybody"

I'm not even sure how this is possible btw

Probably my biggest problem with the movie is it played it too safe. I'm not even sure how you could play it safer.
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Out of all the complaints about the movie, the "played it safe" one still confuses me most
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People sleep on Abrams but he nailed TFA. It was supposed to be a safe introductory movie and it did that, but it also added just enough subversion and hints at future themes to make it interesting and a good lead in to TLJ.

The fact that Rey's parents were nobodies started in TFA. The fact that Kylo would turn against his past and his master but not ever turn good also started in TFA. The downfall of the Jedi and Luke's likely ambivalence also started there. The massive power inflation of the Force started there, as well as hinting to the themes of balance and letting go of the past which are core to TLJ.

TLJ made explicit a lot of stuff TFA laid down as likely theories. This is fine, unless you were really holding out for the slim chance the theories went in a different direction, which is a dumb thing to do and you're dumb and deserve what you get.
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AquaArcane posted...

Out of all the complaints about the movie, the "played it safe" one still confuses me most

...about TLJ?

Yeah, almost everyone's bitching is it didn't play it safe enough.
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Do you think playing it safe is a weird complaint or do you not think it played it safe. And if you don't think it played it safe what do you think it did that was particularly risky or unexpected.
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AquaArcane posted...

Out of all the complaints about the movie, the "played it safe" one still confuses me most

For me it was safe because it had like 6 storylines that repeated the EXACT SAME themes of failure and balance, and then had Yoda come out and lecture the audience about those themes just in case they missed it

I mean, lots of viewers did end up missing it in the end so maybe it didn't go far enough, but to me that is definitely safe/handholdy
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ExThaNemesis posted...

One thing that I forgot about, I think because I wiped it from my mind due to how absolutely ludicrous it was, was Leia doing that whole Marry Poppins floating thing to get back to the ship after she'd been out in space.

I love how she can do that but can't move a pile of rocks at the end of the movie

Seginustemple posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

One thing that I forgot about, I think because I wiped it from my mind due to how absolutely ludicrous it was, was Leia doing that whole Marry Poppins floating thing to get back to the ship after she'd been out in space.

I love how she can do that but can't move a pile of rocks at the end of the movie

Is that weird? One is lifting literal tons between dozens of objects and holding them in the air. The other is directing a weightless form in a vacuum in one direction. The rock lifting is a far more imprrssive feat. Directing yourself in space seems like baby's first force power.
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foolm0r0n posted...

I mean, lots of viewers did end up missing it in the end so maybe it didn't go far enough, but to me that is definitely safe/handholdy

I'll admit Yoda was kind of a handhold, but I don't think it was a bad inclusion. Like you said, many people still didn't get it even after being explicitly being told from the movie itself. People just aren't that bright, and it's a shame movies have to add stuff like this in just to cover their bases. Even then it doesn't work.

As for the rest of the movie, it did a pretty good job of subverting expectations. I certainly didn't expect it to turn out the way it did, but I'm also not one to theorize or discuss the movie before I see it. I had no expectations, I went in without knowing a damn thing about the movie and I was surprised by a lot of it, in a good way. I came out loving the movie. Then I saw it three times in one day and still loved it.

Seginustemple posted...

I love how she can do that but can't move a pile of rocks at the end of the movie

I'd argue that moving a large pile of rocks is a bit more advanced than just pulling yourself through empty space towards a huge object. I also think Leia's use of the Force was more of a survival instinct than full control.
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LapisLazuli posted...

Seginustemple posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

One thing that I forgot about, I think because I wiped it from my mind due to how absolutely ludicrous it was, was Leia doing that whole Marry Poppins floating thing to get back to the ship after she'd been out in space.

I love how she can do that but can't move a pile of rocks at the end of the movie

Is that weird? One is lifting literal tons between dozens of objects and holding them in the air. The other is directing a weightless form in a vacuum in one direction. The rock lifting is a far more imprrssive feat. Directing yourself in space seems like baby's first force power.

I am glad the untrained force user was there to pick up the slack.
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LapisLazuli posted...

Is that weird? One is lifting literal tons between dozens of objects and holding them in the air. The other is directing a weightless form in a vacuum in one direction. The rock lifting is a far more imprrssive feat. Directing yourself in space seems like baby's first force power.

You said it better than me.
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Corrik posted...

I am glad the untrained force user was there to pick up the slack.

She technically has taken two lessons from Luke by that point so she isn't untrained anymore.
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Have you people even seen Empire? Size don't matter to the force. I guess Luke never passed that little secret on Leia's way

I felt that the more impressive thing Leia did with the force was keep herself alive in a vacuum for like 20-30 seconds or so. Although reading up on the subject vacuum is less immediately fatal than I'd previously heard, so maybe it's not so crazy. Regardless, anything Leia accomplished in that scene can easily be written away as "people on the point of death sometimes do crazy impressive things subconsciosly in fiction".

Agreed that moving that many rocks is probably significantly harder; in terms of the energy expended there's no question.
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They copped out by only letting Leia use her force when she was about to die. She should have had force abilities after that, but they needed a final heroic scene for Rey. That's one of the many examples of a good high level idea but bad execution in the movie.
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They did need that final scene for Rey though, she's the hero of the story.
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Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but wasn't Leia trailing the pack? "What are you looking at me for, follow him"? I thought Rey lifted thise rocks right before Leia even got there, just after Poe arrived.
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They didn't show Leia there when Rey lifted the rocks, although that doesn't specifically mean she wasn't there. We just didn't see her.
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Leia lifting the rocks would have been bad. that is Rey's moment.

I also object to her being 'untrained' - she's pretty clearly been experimenting and training herself, with or without Luke holding her hand.
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Lopen posted...

Do you think playing it safe is a weird complaint or do you not think it played it safe. And if you don't think it played it safe what do you think it did that was particularly risky or unexpected.

Let's see...

-Pushing Poe's development towards being a responsible leader instead of 'one hell of a pilot'.
-Not having Rey learn things from Luke, and in fact actively state that it's better if she blazes her own path (this is kinda undermined by her stealing the Jedi texts instead of letting them burn but alas).
-NOT having the cavalry come to the rescue of the Resistance.
-Heroic solutions and brave bullshit not working out.
-Successfully managing to set up Kylo Ren as the final boss and axing Snoke instead of having him be Palpatine 2.0.
-Priming Kylo for a Miles Edgeworth-style face turn (partly a Franny Von Karma turn too).
-Maybe splitting up the Finn/Rey ship? Depends on what the last movie does.
-Most importantly, not having Rey be Luke's daughter. You can't tell me this wasn't what was foreshadowed in TFA, man.

There's a lot of complaints one can make about this movie, but 'too safe' is not one of them. All of these things just fly in the face of what is too safe for Star Wars.
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AquaArcane posted...

They did need that final scene for Rey though, she's the hero of the story.

They could've figured out something better for her to be heroic at the end though. It just feels half baked.
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How is any of that like, risky, though.

Those feel like forks in the road more than risk taking ventures. Like things didn't work okay, that happens all the time in Star Wars. If that's your definition of risk Rogue One was the most risky movie ever.

I dunno most of it wasn't very unexpected to me. The natural flow of the story took that stuff where it went.
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Lopen posted...

How is any of that like, risky, though.

Those feel like forks in the road more than risk taking ventures. Like things didn't work okay, that happens all the time in Star Wars. If that's your definition of risk Rogue One was the most risky movie ever.

I dunno most of it wasn't very unexpected to me. The natural flow of the story took that stuff where it went.

TLJ was anything but safe.
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Team Rocket Elite posted...

Corrik posted...

I am glad the untrained force user was there to pick up the slack.

She technically has taken two lessons from Luke by that point so she isn't untrained anymore.

I guess she is as trained as that stable boy then. Thank God
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Lopen posted...

How is any of that like, risky, though.

Those feel like forks in the road more than risk taking ventures. Like things didn't work okay, that happens all the time in Star Wars. If that's your definition of risk Rogue One was the most risky movie ever.

I dunno most of it wasn't very unexpected to me. The natural flow of the story took that stuff where it went.

Rewatch TFA Lopen. Does it feel like what happened in TLJ was the natural and obvious conclusion if you watch the previous movie? Like you look at Rey spending so much time obsessing over luke skywalker and her parents and your response is 'they're clearly not gonna matter', for example?
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How important is that stuff to the narrative though unless you're heavily invested in Rey.

Like the "risks" were in the petty details. The main narrative was very safe
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Lopen posted...

How important is that stuff to the narrative though unless you're heavily invested in Rey.

Like the "risks" were in the petty details. The main narrative was very safe

Very, p much. 'Does Kylo do a face turn and Rey a heel turn' dictates how you begin your ninth movie, for example. Same for Snoke being alive vs not. None of this stuff was gonna change TLJ significantly because TFA is a shit movie that didn't bother to answer a single question it raised, leaving TLJ to pay the piper, but TLJ's responses dictate how Ep9 is written.
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Kylo doing a face turn and Rey doing a heel turn would be really weird though to the main narrative-- those two sticking to the course is the bog standard.

Snoke being alive vs not would matter more if Snoke mattered more in the first movie. It would've been a risky move if he was established as a major player-- but in TFA Snoke was pretty irrelevant-- killing Kylo would've been the risky move.

Luke being the real hero of the movie would've been risky too as you were basically building Rey as a big deal the first movie and Luke was your Yoda.

Basically the movie teased a lot of interesting plot developments but delivered on none of them. Any of those forks could've been unexpected but the presentation made pretty much all of em obvious.
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I felt like they played it ridiculously safe too Lopen, but I suppose the film starting to tank after the first week is that maybe they didn't play it safe enough?

I don't know. I think that if they had Gone with the Rey/Ren partnership with Luke having to face down and either defeat or turn the two strongest force users in the last decade for the finale, things would be shaping up much much better.

Imagine the first time Hux tried to get snippy with Rey LOL.
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Also,

"You're no one in all of this. You're nothing. But not to me."

Was such a FANTASTIC line and everything was set up so perfectly for her to join him.

His reversion back to I AM SUPREME LEADER right after this felt kind of lame, too. I guess he couldn't just outright cop to murdering Snoke to Hux right there, but yeah.

Also Rey woke up before Kylo Ren, she could've killed him and waited for Hux to show up. Held him hostage and ended the whole movie while saving everyone. OOPS.
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It depends what you mean by safe

If you mean by safe relative to the expectations set forth by the first movie it was incredibly safe

If you mean safe relative to the expectations set forth by the lore as a whole it was less safe cause they axed Luke and Rey was irrelevant to the grand scheme of things

But then you consider Obi Wan was axed in a similar fashion and it removes a lot of the daring from Luke's end. Also that Han died pretty unceremoniously in the VII.

I think either way it was a disappointment-- either you thought it was "too safe" or you thought the first half was incredibly boring-- the people I watched it with they didn't really comment a ton on the safety but they found the movie to be a snooze-- my first issue was that I was constantly finding the plot more potentially interesting than it turned out to be.
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Oh and the Leia Marry Poppins thing actually made me say "what." in the theatre and got some snickers from the people around me.

No one seriously thought that was a good scene did they? Like that was fucking BONKERS. If someone had told me about that scene before I saw the movie I'd have called them a liar.
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One of the twists I thought would be cool

Mary Poppins Leia was some sorta imperial spy. She shot Poe and I was like OH MY GOD IT MAKES SENSE WHY SHE GOT IN THERE CAUSE SHE WAS SOME SORTA CLONE OR SOMETHING.

But then she wasn't so it was still dumb.

Trust me I have like 12 things to rewrite with this movie
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ExThaNemesis posted...

Oh and the Leia Marry Poppins thing actually made me say "what." in the theatre and got some snickers from the people around me.

No one seriously thought that was a good scene did they? Like that was fucking BONKERS. If someone had told me about that scene before I saw the movie I'd have called them a liar.

*Raises hand*

Gave me chills to see Leia use the Force. It was way overdue, and a very good way to send her off after the death of Carrie Fisher.
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There are literally billions of ways I can think of for her to use the Force the first time other than that bullshit.
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Is that the force or is that Scary Mary
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ExThaNemesis posted...

There are literally billions of ways I can think of for her to use the Force the first time other than that bullshit.

Likewise! But I don't think it's bullshit because again, Leia was super overdue for it and her dying in that situation would've been awful. It's an actually very effective fakeout because you fully believe she's going to die, so saving herself with the Force is pretty good stuff.
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she got more than two lessons

deleted scenes man
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