Board 8 > Star Wars: The Last Jedi: SPOILER TOPIC Episode IV: A New Grievance

(+) Yeah! (+)

We need a better title and like 50% of the board has Corrik ignored so let's use this

I just did a 3 hour podcast with my friends talking about TLJ and TFA and I threw in all the stuff about balance and failure that we have been talking about... I'll link it when it gets posted
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Watched it today

So what's the reason people are hating it so much? Is it the way Luke dies?
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For me personally, no continuity from the OT, or even TFA really. All of the things I wanted answers for weren't or had terrible answers.
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WazzupGenius00 posted...

Watched it today

So what's the reason people are hating it so much? Is it the way Luke dies?

The many subplots that sometimes get tiresome to follow, Finn and Rose's actions basically counting for nothing, Luke's characterization.
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WazzupGenius00 posted...

So what's the reason people are hating it so much?

All their fan theories were wrong and therefore it's bad.
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Menji posted...

For me personally, no continuity from the OT, or even TFA really. All of the things I wanted answers for weren't or had terrible answers.

The Rey answer is literally my favorite thing in the new movies!
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I am absolutely for Rey's parents being no one because it's a great character building moment. Like she's literally in tears as Kylo Ren points out this truth (which she already knew but wouldn't admit to herself) but tries to sell her that she's important to him, and she still refuses to turn to the dark side.
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I loved all the answers we got. Luke was handled exceptionally well. Rey's parents being no one was a shock at first but after thinking about it, I decided I like it more that way. Snoke being no one was good too, he was cool for a minute but he doesn't matter.

Everything is set up for a brand new movie with all these awesome new characters.
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Menji posted...

For me personally, no continuity from the OT, or even TFA really. All of the things I wanted answers for weren't or had terrible answers.

See I guess this is a fundamental disconnect between the reasons why you and I watch movies

I'm not watching a movie to know the plot/get the answers (or at best it's like a tertiary reason), I'm trying to see the themes and ideas presented
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Yeah and just because they weren't the answers you wanted doesn't mean it's a bad movie
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AquaArcane posted...

Everything is set up for a brand new movie with all these awesome new characters.

That's the problem. We're basically starting over on the third movie in a trilogy.
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Hardly? Just because uniting a new Resistance will be a plot element that doesn't negate how much is still left hanging on a character-based note.
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Just got done watching it. I liked Finn and Rose, they're obviously trying to develop something there so that Rey's character doesn't necessarily have a romantic subarc with Finn. That lets Rey develop in other, less traditional ways for a female character. (Rose's actress was obviously having a lot of fun with her role, which I think really helped.)

Bitter old Luke? I think it worked. He never got to lesson 3 with Rey, so he'll probably come back as a spooky ghost and tell her in the next movie.

Uglyface2 posted...

Just got done watching it. I liked Finn and Rose, they're obviously trying to develop something there so that Rey's character doesn't necessarily have a romantic subarc with Finn. That lets Rey develop in other, less traditional ways for a female character. (Rose's actress was obviously having a lot of fun with her role, which I think really helped.)

Bitter old Luke? I think it worked. He never got to lesson 3 with Rey, so he'll probably come back as a spooky ghost and tell her in the next movie.

Lesson 3 is a deleted scene, actually. It went too over-the-top with Luke. It'll pop up on the Blu Ray.

This doesn't necessarily mean they won't change things around now that it never happened and have him give her one last lesson in 9 but yeah.
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WazzupGenius00 posted...

Watched it today

So what's the reason people are hating it so much? Is it the way Luke dies?

I explained the idea before, it's like taking all the beloved toys down off the shelf and throwing them in a pile and lighting them on fire to watch all the spectacular colors
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SaveEstelle posted...

Lesson 3 is a deleted scene, actually. It went too over-the-top with Luke.

How?
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"A New Grievance"

would you say that people have a general grievance?

they have a general holdo
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redrocket_pub posted...

SaveEstelle posted...

Lesson 3 is a deleted scene, actually. It went too over-the-top with Luke.

How?

He tricks Rey into thinking some bandits are coming to the island. Makes her experience bitter defeat or something. And then at the end it's revealed that it's all some elaborate prank to mess with her head. Or something like that, anyway. StarWarsNewsNet.com has the full scoop on the upcoming deleted scenes.
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That sounds like some grade A Rian Johnson BS
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Paratroopa1 posted...

"A New Grievance"

would you say that people have a general grievance?

foolm0r0n posted...

they have a general holdo

*snicker*
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WazzupGenius00 posted...

So what's the reason people are hating it so much?

Can only speak for myself but a lot of the things I disliked TFA for got worse. Bad jokes, uninteresting new characters, lack of imagination outside the framework of the original trilogy. The biggest disappointment is that for how much it expressed a desire to unshackle itself from the past it couldn't help but continue to fetishize the story beats and iconography from the OT.

I'll try to make this my last complaint post cuz I don't wanna rain on the parade but I guess I'm just over Star Wars now. Maybe it's time to check out Farscape

Seginustemple posted...

Maybe it's time to check out Farscape

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If the physical humor of The Last Jedi doesn't land, I don't necessarily suggest the evicted fans turn to Farscape
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Rey's parents were what they should've been and they definitely got that part right

The movie dragged though It didn't need to be 2:33 long, and the length was starting to wear on me. Finn and Rose's subplots that essentially achieved nothing took like 50 minutes by themselves, which did little but add length. Did anyone actually expect BDT's character NOT to turn traitor and hand the rebels over eventually? Because I was just waiting for the moment)

Overall I was fine with the movie, it had more than enough high points to offset it's lows. If there's one problem though, it's that I feel like a lot of it was completely forgettable, and the same story could've been told in like 1:45 instead of 2:33, and. I feel like most of it will just become an afterthought even in the face of 9.
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I don't mind Finn and Rose's side story. Just because it didn't really amount to anything doesn't mean it wasn't necessary. Rian Johnson wanted to explore more of the Star Wars universe and show us something new, there's nothing wrong with that.

Granted, yeah it probably could have been shorter. The whole stampede scene didn't need to last that long. I wouldn't want the entire subplot removed though, I liked seeing a different side of the galaxy.

Plus, it wasn't for no reason. The whole movie is about failure, Finn and Rose definitely failed.
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Seginustemple posted...

The biggest disappointment is that for how much it expressed a desire to unshackle itself from the past it couldn't help but continue to fetishize the story beats and iconography from the OT.

I was legit under the impression this was intentional.
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Jeff Zero posted...

If the physical humor of The Last Jedi doesn't land, I don't necessarily suggest the evicted fans turn to Farscape

Hah.
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I thought that was because of bad direction and/or a clash between Rian and Disney
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Rewatched it last night (gf hadn't seen it yet).

I was able to pick up some smaller details this time around, such as the slave boy using the Force in the final scene, as well as the First Order using both new and old model AT-ATs on the salt planet. Pretty cool touch there.

Though man, I felt even more disappointed this time around, and mainly for the same reasons we've already discussed, but this time they just resonated more. There's just so much wrong with this movie.

Luke's characterization is my biggest issue. There simply isn't a convincing explanation as to why the ultimate good-guy-team-player would contemplate murdering his nephew (who, up to that point, had not actually done anything evil), and even worse, would then vanish on everyone he cares about. That's the antithesis of OT Luke, and him seeing "visions of great evil" in his nephew isn't enough to explain the shocking change in behavior, especially the abandonment. Luke being a grumpy, funny old fart who disdains the old Jedi doctrines is pretty cool. Him turning his back on his friends and family is a disservice to the character. I half-blame (at least) TFA for this, as Luke's disappearance was the focal point of that movie. It built up into an amazing ending, but really, what explanation could anyone have written to make satisfying, logical sense of Luke's actions? Still an amazing performance from Mark Hamill!

The gags seemed lamer overall the second time. I'm not so sure this "Marvel humor" ages well.

I left the theater thinking the main First Order/Resistance chase plot was even dumber. They tried in multiple ways to explain it (Hux literally asks "what's the point of our entire freakin army if we can't catch three piddly ships that are a mile in front of us"), but the explanations are just dumb. I just can't take "they're very slowly staying just out of range... for the next 18 hours" as anything but asinine. Write something better.

The Holdo/Poe showdown was just as bad. When she assumes control, Holdo states that the Resistance now numbers 400 people. That's it, that's the entire Resistance. When your numbers are that small (though they didn't seem much bigger to begin with), what's the point of withholding information from your most capable guy? To teach him a lesson while everyone's death is imminent? This is one of the most debated - and seemingly disliked - parts of the movie, and I'm squarely in the "did not like" camp. The only somewhat reasonable explanation I've heard is that Holdo kept her plan secret because she feared someone leaking it to the First Order... but I don't buy that. You're 400 people against Snoke's moon-sized ship. Make sure everyone is on the same page.

I was a little taken back by how isolated this movie felt, which is why I actually enjoyed the casino scene this time. It was the only glimpse of planetary life and culture. Without it, nearly the entire movie would have taken place on military ships or Luke's hidden island.

Speaking of isolation, we aren't given a good idea as to how much of the First Order was destroyed by Holdo's suicide. It seemed like... a shit ton. After the suicide fallout, Kylo and Hux order their full forces onto the salt planet, and it doesn't seem like many people at all. Maybe that's why it all feels so isolated - because as far as know, this conflict is now comprised entirely of 400 bad guys vs 40 good guys on some random uncharted planet. Maybe that's why no one cared to answer the distress signal or why Luke really didn't give much of a shit. I mean, if you really wanted to trivialize it, this movie almost made the entire Resistance/First Order conflict seem like a neighborhood gang war. The Star Wars galaxy has trillions of people. The fact that so few (literally in the "tens" on the Resistance side) are actually fighting really lowers the stakes.

So yeah, those are some of my takeways. Sorry.
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foolm0r0n posted...

WazzupGenius00 posted...

Watched it today

So what's the reason people are hating it so much? Is it the way Luke dies?

I explained the idea before, it's like taking all the beloved toys down off the shelf and throwing them in a pile and lighting them on fire to watch all the spectacular colors

I watched the movie recently and didn't get that impression at all. Maybe because I have little nostalgia for the series. I did however go to the theatres with my parents who have major SW nostalgia and they loved everything, especially Luke's role in things.

The movie has some issues but overall I felt it was one of the strongest entries in the series. Star Wars plots are generally uninteresting and for this one I was actually...well, interested.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

There simply isn't a convincing explanation as to why the ultimate good-guy-team-player would contemplate murdering his nephew

I mean, he came within seconds of murdering his father and only pulled back when he realized he was turning into him via the robotic hand.

At least this time Luke pulled himself back on his own.
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I never got the impression that Luke was the ultimate good-guy-team-player. He's an average schlub that gets thrown into a big space war with space wizards. Overall he does the right thing but he still struggles and has internal conflicts. I suppose this is just another disconnect I have with the SW fanbase.
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His father had spent 20 years murdering and conquering across the galaxy. He killed Obi-Wan, almost killed Han Solo, and threatened Leia in that same scene. Luke was also being influenced by the Emperor's poisonous speech as he sat only a few feet away. All of that still wasn't enough. Luke's nephew, as we understand it, was a young man who hadn't even done anything yet. Luke also knew him (and presumably loved him) since birth. They just seem like such different scenarios.
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KamikazePotato posted...

Maybe because I have little nostalgia for the series

Right. And it needs to go beyond nostalgia, there needs to be a sacred reverence for the OT
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KamikazePotato posted...

I never got the impression that Luke was the ultimate good-guy-team-player. He's an average schlub that gets thrown into a big space war with space wizards. Overall he does the right thing but he still struggles and has internal conflicts. I suppose this is just another disconnect I have with the SW fanbase.

Wow it's almost like over the past few decades, Luke has been built up as some sort of larger-than-life legend...
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

His father had spent 20 years murdering and conquering across the galaxy. He killed Obi-Wan, almost killed Han Solo, and threatened Leia in that same scene. Luke was also being influenced by the Emperor's poisonous speech as he sat only a few feet away. All of that still wasn't enough. Luke's nephew, as we understand it, was a young man who hadn't even done anything yet. Luke also knew him (and presumably loved him) since birth. They just seem like such different scenarios.

And keep in mind he spends the entire time leading up to that saying Vader still has good in him. So he had pretty much forgiven all that.
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foolm0r0n posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

Maybe because I have little nostalgia for the series

Right. And it needs to go beyond nostalgia, there needs to be a sacred reverence for the OT

Yeah but like I was saying, my parents have a near-reverence for the series but they didn't mind what happened with Luke. They told me they loved his role in the movies! They aren't part of the SW 'fandom' though, which makes a big difference I think. They don't post on message boards and collect merchandise. They just really, really like the series.
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I'm not that big of a Luke fan, but IMO his transition from starry-eyed brat to bitter middle-aged man is reasonable, even if the Kylo angle is silly in the big picture.

He grew up. And wants the damn kids off his lawn.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Luke's nephew, as we understand it, was a young man who hadn't even done anything yet.

So how many years or murdering and conquering and killing should he have waited before trying to kill Kylo?

Obviously it was a mistake to try to kill Kylo, that's literally the entire point of Luke's story. That's why he exiled himself and threw away the force, and that's why he was finally able to redeem himself internally and move on as a force ghost.

All your questions have answers in the movie, not sure what you're missing.
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See, the thing is that Luke didn't even try to kill Kylo. He has a moment of internal freakout that immediately passed - he never even tried to swing the lightsaber or anything.
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That counts as trying
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Luke participates in the first assault on the Death Star despite little-to-no fighter pilot training. He does so willingly and without hesitation, a stark contrast to Han, who grapples with the risk and decides to help in the last second. Two movies later, he risks his life to rescue the same Han. He's definitely a team player, and despite internal struggles, he never abandoned those he cared about in the films. He never even thought twice about rushing to his uncle and aunt's aid when he feared that Stormtroopers may have been after them.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Obviously it was a mistake to try to kill Kylo, that's literally the entire point of Luke's story. That's why he exiled himself and threw away the force

Why would he exile himself after that mistake?
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Why would he exile himself after that mistake?

He created Kylo and got everyone at his academy murdered and caused all the future events, including getting Han killed (i.e. failing Leia with her son AND her husband).

I'm no OT expect but was Luke really the kind of person to shrug all that off and be like "well it's still up to me to save everyone"? What a bland, hyper-arrogant, one-dimensional character in that case.

Luke came out of exile in this movie and they explain all the reasons why.
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It was never up to Luke to save everyone, and he never thought that. To the contrary, Luke needed constant saving throughout the OT. That's one of the things I loved most about that story, especially ANH. Yes, it was Luke's story and he made the bullseye shot on the Death Star, but it took everyone (Obi-Wan, Han & Chewie, the droids, Leia, and even Wedge) to get him there. Han also saved his life at the start of ESB, and even C-3PO helped save him and the others from an embarrassing Ewok death in RotJ (although Luke himself used the Force to play a pivotal role in that). During RotJ's climactic battle, Luke's conflict with Vader/Palpatine was deeply personal and had little to do with which side actually won (the Ewoks disabling the second Death Star's blast shield decided that, which is one of the reasons that movie was controversial). From an Empire vs Rebellion standpoint, Luke's role in the final 30 minutes was almost inconsequential.

IMO, the OT never built Luke up to be the "chosen one" to the extent that Anakin was in the PT and Rey is now. The OT was much more of a team effort, which is one of the reasons I think of Luke as a team player - they were ALL team players. That's one of the reasons those characters were so endearing to fans.

The idea of Luke contemplating the murder of a sleeping family member is dicey, but I'll buy it. It's certainly an interesting direction to take the character and it paints the darkness within Ben Solo as something to be truly feared. But the idea of making Luke pack up and run is way too at odds with the character we saw in the OT. That guy would have stayed and done his part to make things right (or at least try to).
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foolm0r0n posted...

I'm no OT expect but was Luke really the kind of person to shrug all that off and be like "well it's still up to me to save everyone"? What a bland, hyper-arrogant, one-dimensional character in that case.

not giving up in the face of failure and adversity, and trying to help at all is now bland, hyper-arrogant, and one-dimensional? i think this part of your post is just a bad argument
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i've said this before, the only part that truly makes zero sense is that luke never confronted snoke
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banananor posted...

i've said this before, the only part that truly makes zero sense is that luke never confronted snoke

This is actually correct.
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Did Luke know about Snoke?
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