Board 8 > Hypothetical Mercs Topic, S2 Topic 3: My Greatest Creation

(+) Yeah! (+)

For new builds, and bitching about old builds like I'm supposed to be doing. How fun!
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Tag
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Okay then
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Mahogany (The Midnight Meat Train)
Villainous Male Human
3/week

Mahogany is as he appears in The Midnight Meat Train carrying his hammer and a nice suitcase.

Welcome! (Passive) - Mahogany is a focused guy and has only one job to do. He may not be fielded normally in any week's battle, but may freely use his Pre-Battle if available.

A Train to Catch (Pre-Battle) - The job of train butcher is a you break it you bought it kind of thing. Every three weeks, Mahogany may preselect one lucky enemy merc. A side topic will then be held where the enemy will begin on one end of Mahogany's home terrain of the Subway, their goal being to make it to the conductor's room. Mahogany will be in their way attempting to kill them. Should voters decide that Mahogany stops the enemy, they will be KOed that week. Should they decide that the enemy successfully gets by Mahogany, Mahogany will instead be KOed...however the lucky target will be possessed over to Mahogany's team for the week. They will fight robbed of all emotion and armed only with a large hammer and a suitcase.

Upgrades

Character Upgrade

Mahogany may be fielded as a standard merc without having to use his ability. If he has used his ability this week and won, he may be fielded without using a roster slot.

Terrain

Subway - The New York subway as seen in The Midnight Meat Train. A standard multi-car train, speeding along to an unknown destination. Leaving it is allowed, although given the velocity of it may prove fatal.
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holy shit a guaranteed once every 3 weeks no-tier-limit pre-battle possession on a 3/week?
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Technically a Pure Support until upgrade <_<
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Hm. Maybe something like

Mahogany (The Midnight Meat Train)
Villainous Male Human
3/week

Mahogany is as he appears in The Midnight Meat Train carrying his hammer and a nice suitcase.

A Train to Catch (Passive) - Mahogany is a focused guy and has only one job to do. He may not be fielded normally in any week's battle, but may freely use his Pre-Battle if available.

Welcome! (Pre-Battle) - The job of train butcher is a you break it you bought it kind of thing. Every three weeks, Mahogany may preselect one lucky enemy merc. A side topic will then be held where the enemy will begin on one end of Mahogany's home terrain of the Green Line, their goal being to make it to the conductor's room. Mahogany will be in their way attempting to kill them. Should voters decide that Mahogany stops the enemy, they will be KOed that week. Should they decide that the enemy successfully gets by Mahogany, Mahogany will instead be KOed...however the lucky target will be marked as the next Butcher. This will have no immediate effect, but the next time a marked Butcher faces Mahogany's team, they will immediately be possessed over to Mahogany's side at the start of their ability phase, inherit his A Train to Catch passive, and will be able to use Mahogany's Welcome ability if it is currently off of recharge (any recharge incurred going to Mahogany). The merc in question will battle robbed of all emotion, armed only with a hammer and a suitcase.

Upgrades

Character Upgrade

Mahogany may be fielded as a standard merc without having to use his ability. If he has used his ability this week and won, he may be fielded without using a roster slot. This does not apply to marked Butchers using his ability in his stead.

Terrain

Green Line - The New York subway as seen in The Midnight Meat Train. A standard multi-car train decorated with meat hooks, speeding along to an unknown destination. Leaving it is allowed, although given the velocity of it may prove fatal.
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That's slightly better, but I'd slap on the Welcome ability "may preselect one Lucky Rosterable enemy merc" because I wouldn't see much reason not to just burn this in low on a merc I don't want to deal with in mid or high, to set up an advantage in a second/third match of a set. Because I'd easily be willing to pay 3 gp a week to have the easiest pre-removal ever set up on future fights, putting the most agressive deterrent out there, just because you fought them, and very few abilities can actually block sidetopics.

Maybe have it that you can exp buy off the Rosterable tag for a decent sum of xp. (25-30)

....
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More analysis today

Was playing Transistor the last couple days which was A Very Important Job since I don't have a toaster computer anymore
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When everything changes, nothing changes.
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OK so analysis didn't happen because Transistor. Just to commit myself to this, here's the batch I'm putting up tomorrow.

Guardian (Destiny)
Happy Mask Salesman
Harth Stonebrew
Haseo
Hector
Heihachi Mishima
Honoka
Hsien-Ko
Id
Ikaruga

Motley crew alright. Should be fun!
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OK, it's time. WRITING NOW.

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The Guardian

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/107662131/Guardian%20(Destiny)

People really really didn't like the Guardian's upgrade ability and I never got why. Actually, OK, I sort of do - it lets unforeseen factors come into your match and hose you when you should've won, but it's all deterministic and only dependent on your ability to politically outmaneuver your opponents. If you get rocked by it you kinda deserve it IMO. It may not be the most popular ability but I think it deserves to stay - it makes the game more complex in all the right ways, and also leads to hilarious matches.

Past that, The Guardian suffered from some odd problems. First is that their build wasn't updated to what was endgame gear at the time of their release, second is that nobody knew who the fuck they were. It's weird, because Bungie is a pretty household name, but only GANON seemed to really know them. We never got a super good gauge on their respect for that reason. At least their base ability was super, super good. Pity we never saw it used in a way that matters!

Should They Stay?: Are they in Destiny 2? If so yes. If not, no. Nobody has a huge attachment so newest version takes precedence IMO.

Happy Mask Salesman

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/102032284/Happy%20Mask%20Salesman

I don't like HMS. I really, really don't like him. Not as a character, he's cool that way, but as a build he's super random in all the worst ways, ranging from a billion options with lots of irrelevant effects, to RNG based effects, to the possibility of turbofucking you over if you roll Majora's Mask and then kill one of your mercs (hi Alany). This build needs to go back to the shop for a total refit, or be scrapped altogether.

Should He Stay?: As is, no. Iconic enough character, but the masks are a trash fire.

Harth Stonebrew

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/109308877/Harth%20Stonebrew

My dislike for Harth is well known. I don't like the fact he was inserted as a mean-spirited dig at GANON, I don't like he was deliberately not balanced at all, and I especially don't like how sloppy his wording is. Add on that stuff like Yogg Saron is the wrongest kind of RNG that can steal matches at random without being able to defend against it and fuck this shit.

Should He Stay?: No. Total refit or bust.

Haseo

WHO IS HASEO

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/102493117/Haseo

THIS IS HASEO

No but seriously, Haseo is a solid merc. I don't like that his awakening stuff is suuuuuper high CD (Demon Awakening has the single highest CD of any ability that isn't variable I believe? And it's really not deserving of that much recharge), but WHO IS HASEO is a lovely ability and he's a solid merc. I feel you can probably do something better by giving him either Data Drain or Skeith as an ability, and I'm not 100% sure he's 5/week tier and not a high power 4 (quick question Ky Kiske or Alucard vs Haseo, who ya got?), but all in all he's fun, .Hack got rereleased with new stuff recently so he's current, and he adds something to the game. He deserves a place in it.

Should He Stay?: Yes.
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Hector

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/103738579/Hector

You know a build is bad when a character people really like doesn't get bought. Nobody could justify grabbing Hector even as a fanboy pick - Fire Emblem character already caps his respect, and then you get a bad RNG fuckfest of a base ability and...yeah. I'm not even sure what the proper usage of it looks like, it's just too variable. Give him something more reliable and better and let him at least pick which merc Matthew steals from and he can maybe be good. Maybe.

Should he stay?: Probably? But not with his abilities as they are now.

Heihachi

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/105860139/Heihachi%20Mishima

Real talk, I've never seen a writeup that undersold a merc as hard as Heihachi's did. Framing him as 'a karate dude' does him no favors when his feats are fucking batshit crazy. Dude is a capital-T TANK, especially post Tekken 7. He tanks (doesn't no-sell, doesn't dodge, TANKS) Akuma's Raging Demon, tanks a satellite beam, tanks...you get the idea. Dude be kuhrayzee and his writeup should not try to go against that. I think Heihachi can actually get respect now after T7, he just needs a respectable writeup. He also needs a better base ability - while conceptually cool, it's way too fucking fiddly at every step of the way (need to predict what the next tier will be so you can only use it reliably on the second week, need to have no KO'd or injured mercs unless you pay for the upgrade, need to...you get the idea). Simplify and clean up and I think he can be a really good merc. God knows his other two abilities are very cool and good.

Honoka

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/110088409/Honoka

Why is she not Shang Tsung

Where is Shang Tsung

Seriously, this might be one of the most 'why' W41 mercs out of them all. If you want a doppelganger merc, Shang Tsung is right there and he has a lot of mercs history and is also packing less fiddly nonsense. Honoka is not gonna get great durability or speed respect, which she needs to not get blown up while scanning, so as a merc, she just makes no sense. Toss out and bring in someone more interesting in her place IMO.

Should She Stay?: No.
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Hsien-Ko

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/107662119/Hsien-Ko

Another pretty 'why' Luis special, but at least one that makes some sense. Darkstalkers has been clamoring for a rep for a very long time, and Hsien-Ko is one of the 'balanced' stalkers who also has some popularity. Her abilities straight up weren't good enough to take a chance on her intensely variable respect (remember that Darkstalkers comes from the era where still images in arcade mode endings were all fighting game characters had for hype), but in theory I don't see why she couldn't show up again with better ones. That said, shouldn't Felicia be the Darkstalkers rep if we can't get Morrigan as a battle merc?

Should She Stay?: Maybe.

Id

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/106972071/Id

The sheer elegance behind Id's existence deserves a standing ovation. MECHALD is a mainstay of Mercs, and Id gets tons of respect, but Fei Fong Wong doesn't reach the same level (with KJH thinking he's a 5-6/week and most people thinking he's a 3). So why not cut out the middleman and include his evil supermode instead? The end result was a total beast of a 6/week with amazingly fun abilities, and I'm super glad the admin team decided to go with this. Out of all the new M4 builds, this is one I'd say is a surefire mainstay. Good work!

Should He Stay?: Yes, of course!

Ikaruga

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/109433107/Ikaruga

Another unexpected booby lady from Luis, but this is one I'm considerably less down on. Ikaruga is very clear and makes a lot of sense - basically lowbie Vergil with room-clearing AoEs and a silly ecchi gimmick. People can easily get an idea of what her battle power is like and, assuming her series' silliness doesn't make them instantly disrespect her, she should get some solid hype. Her abilities were pretty good too, providing a tankiness-bypassing trick to deal with big beef and first strike. All in all, I think she's a very solid merc, and the only real knock against her is not a lot of people have played Senran Kagura. Thoughts, gents?

Should She Stay?: Maybe. Leaning yes here.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

the only real knock against her is not a lot of people are willing to admit that they have played Senran Kagura.

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Heihachi is bizarre in that we've had several iterations of Mercs now where everyone can and has gone "This guy is actually really good, can tank building shattering explosions, can catch bullets in his teeth, etc" and...no one gave a shit
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Harth was added as a dig at me?
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Heihachi is a tough one to price because on feats that don't involve surviving he's not really that impressive. That being said he was a 2/week in M3 and I made him a 4/week in M4 because you can't deny catching bullets in your teeth, but honestly if he got in a fight in M4 I wouldn't be surprised if he was closer to the 2/week respect level because of the coloring from M3.

He's kind of an interesting case study in how much upkeep skews perception.

And yeah were I to remake Heihachi I'd just make Iron Fist his base ability and the pit thing (fully upgraded) one of his upgrades. I think he's good merc there even though it's not clear if Kanzaris thinks so !
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I think he's cool! But I feel like you should probably be able to pay the zaibatsu heir down at an extra cost (+1 upkeep for the purposes of paydowns?). Otherwise it's kind of a pain in the ass to use.

DeathChicken posted...

Heihachi is bizarre in that we've had several iterations of Mercs now where everyone can and has gone "This guy is actually really good, can tank building shattering explosions, can catch bullets in his teeth, etc" and...no one gave a shit

I think he got respect in draftmerx. He got voted to smash Ryu in that one 1v1 fight they had. Before that though...it was rough times.

GANON1025 posted...

Harth was added as a dig at me?

I believe so. I know for an absolute fact no balance testing was done at all beyond some very basic things. There's...a lot to dislike about harth, and a lot of it has to do more with the execution than the base concept. Remove a lot of the super dumb abilities (like MCT and Yogg Saron) and replace them with more reasonable effects and you could make him work, but I don't think he's worth the effort. You can probably get better results by picking one of the classes from Hearthstone and building things off its memes (like Face Hunter).
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I tried SO HARD to hype H in M3, and no one gave a single shit.

Which is why even though I really wanted him in M4 there was no way I was going through that again.
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Yeah but Ryu was always treated like a joke too. Which was sort of funny since he was decently respected when I had him in M3 (granted I also had the Cage as a terrain and kept forcing matches into super short range)
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Well harth is really good so maybe he was added in to celebrate my years of work
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GANON1025 posted...

Well harth is really good so maybe he was added in to celebrate my years of work

I hope I'm wrong about that, yeah. I don't like people being spiteful to the (second) hardest working man in the biz. :(
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A "dig" is probably not quite the right word.

I mean GANON had this ridiculous Harth build he kept adding and adding to on the mercs board and kept saying it was the greatest thing ever and I'm pretty sure most of the abilities are stuff he created

I mean, it not being balance checked was more a product of the nature of the merc GANON created than intentionally releasing a "bad product"
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Yeah, I think that's what was discussed that one time. Makes sense. That makes Harth a little better in my eyes (though I still think he shouldn't be in the game because uuuuugh).
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#IStillBowDown

Also, Ryu got a huge respect bump after SF5 story mode came out! I should know, I owned him.
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Tekken 7 now has Heihachi at about the same strength/skill level as Akuka in canon; if that doesn't get him more respect nothing will

And I loved Guardian's ability. It's fun having ones that really shake up the game now and then
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I still dont understand how that ability works beyond some people can mess with you kinda.
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trdl23 posted...

I still dont understand how that ability works beyond some people can mess with you kinda.

People can use their abilities for others. Basically you want to buddy up with someone whose abilities complement yours and viceversa and buddy-nuke your weekly opponents into oblivion. You're incentivized to do so because your shit will go on half CD if you use it for a friend, too.
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I do genuinely think Harth Stonebrew is good, it's not a joke
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Haseo

WHO IS HASEO

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/102493117/Haseo

THIS IS HASEO

No but seriously, Haseo is a solid merc. I don't like that his awakening stuff is suuuuuper high CD (Demon Awakening has the single highest CD of any ability that isn't variable I believe? And it's really not deserving of that much recharge), but WHO IS HASEO is a lovely ability and he's a solid merc. I feel you can probably do something better by giving him either Data Drain or Skeith as an ability, and I'm not 100% sure he's 5/week tier and not a high power 4 (quick question Ky Kiske or Alucard vs Haseo, who ya got?), but all in all he's fun, .Hack got rereleased with new stuff recently so he's current, and he adds something to the game. He deserves a place in it.

Should He Stay?: Yes.

Don't forget that Haseo got a new form in Last Recode. I take 5th form Haseo to stomp either Ky or Alucard. It's such a massive power boost that it goes from Xth form Haseo not even leaving a mark on Ovan's ice cage to 5th form breaking it fairly easily. And his new skills with it are just flat out overpowered, doing tons more damage than anyone else is capable of. 5th form is much closer to a 6 than a 4.
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i just got an email saying the mercs (1?) wiki is going to get reclaimed

we should make that not happen
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I made it not happen!

I probably should fix the pictures on there sometime as well...
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Yyyyeah we should. Somebody message Tiro? I think he has the admin keys to that.

Mewtwo59 posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Haseo

WHO IS HASEO

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/102493117/Haseo

THIS IS HASEO

No but seriously, Haseo is a solid merc. I don't like that his awakening stuff is suuuuuper high CD (Demon Awakening has the single highest CD of any ability that isn't variable I believe? And it's really not deserving of that much recharge), but WHO IS HASEO is a lovely ability and he's a solid merc. I feel you can probably do something better by giving him either Data Drain or Skeith as an ability, and I'm not 100% sure he's 5/week tier and not a high power 4 (quick question Ky Kiske or Alucard vs Haseo, who ya got?), but all in all he's fun, .Hack got rereleased with new stuff recently so he's current, and he adds something to the game. He deserves a place in it.

Should He Stay?: Yes.

Don't forget that Haseo got a new form in Last Recode. I take 5th form Haseo to stomp either Ky or Alucard. It's such a massive power boost that it goes from Xth form Haseo not even leaving a mark on Ovan's ice cage to 5th form breaking it fairly easily. And his new skills with it are just flat out overpowered, doing tons more damage than anyone else is capable of. 5th form is much closer to a 6 than a 4.

Excellent. Guess it's time for me to finally play .Hack now!
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Haseo led to such stupid arguments. "He's not real, he's a program meant to fight other programs, so what does he do to things that aren't? Anything? Nothing?"
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DeathChicken posted...

Haseo led to such stupid arguments. "He's not real, he's a program meant to fight other programs, so what does he do to things that aren't? Anything? Nothing?"

People are dumb, that's not on Haseo. Worst case scenario you just say 'he'll interact with everyone in the match as though they were all participants in The World' or something and call it a day.
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i stand by my trophies arguments though
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Just got done with Persona 5. Man, what a game.

Uh... where would you guys put Joker? Dude feels an order of magnitude above Yu Narukami, but I always felt Yu didn't get much respect.
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I still consider Joker at the 4/week level unless you give him his ultimate persona with endgame parameters (which is... pretty much the same with all Persona protags, just Joker specifically). Yu has better showings due to fighting game canon wins, but fighting game wins are flimsy at best when gauging respect as opposed to island punching. Joker has a lot more niches he fills, but I feel like it'd be an uphill struggle to take him to win over Yu 1 Vs 1 unless people buy "man with gun shoots child, gun wins". Joker feels like the Ezio of the 4/week tier of "is decent straight up, is fantastic with terrain advantage".

I'd argue that a lot of the P5 cast is on the cusp of the 4/week barrier though, which is better than the previous casts being generally mid to low 3/weeks and robots and a dog.

http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/117777735/Joker

Made this model as a base to make him decently widespread a bit after I beat the game. Feel like it plays with Joker pretty well.
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Joker definitely outclasses Yu in canon showings. Dunno about arena, but i dont see it much as canon really.
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It's a direct sequel to P4 so dunno why not
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I thought Yu got okay respect but I mean on the other hand anyone with his set of buffs and healing does kinda (that's kinda why his build is cool though)
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Joker's generally more agile than Yu based on how he can leap around in gameplay (in and out of battle) and even cutscenes, and has a gun too so there's that. Don't think he'd be a full upkeep ahead of Yu, though. His pistol's no match for Aigis's gatling guns/machine guns/rocket launchers and a body made of metal that barely put her at 5 upkeep instead of 4 because Yu can possibly 1v1 her.
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Joker in mercs? Drop the zero and bring in the


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Aigis as of Arena is physically strong enough to flick a shirt button at someone and knock them out. It's funny how she was just argued as "pretty okay"
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