Current Events > Why are Conservatives / Republicans so anti-union?

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If an employer is treating workers in a way that they, collectively, deem as unfair and group together to make demands, isn't that the essence of the market correcting itself?

edit: this topic is not intended to discuss the merits of unions themselves, but specifically how a "free market" proponent can be against workers grouping together and making demands.
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when i asked this in another topic someone responded with:

Shmashed posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

why are free-market proponents so anti-union? if the workers choose to group together for bargaining power, isn't that the very definition of the market responding to demand?

because they distort the equilibrium of supply and demand for labor

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/economics/09/unions-workers.asp

The power of labor unions rests in their two main tools of influence: restricting labor supply and increasing labor demand. Some economists compare them to cartels. Through collective bargaining, unions negotiate the wages that employers will pay. Unions ask for a higher wage than the equilibrium wage (found at the intersect of the labor supply and labor demand curves), but this can lower the hours demanded by employers. Since a higher wage rate equates to less work per dollar, unions often face problems when negotiating higher wages and instead will often focus on increasing the demand for labor.

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Because labor unions are traditionally in bed with the Democrats and are rife with corruption. They're pseudo government employees, which is exactly what conservatives want less of.

https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=P
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r4X0r posted...

Because labor unions are traditionally in bed with the Democrats and are rife with corruption.

"these groups typically support my political enemies thus they are bad" doesn't seem very free market though
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Unions themselves aren't free market. They're essentially a part of the Democratic Party of whatever state they're in. Especially public unions.
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I don't know much about it but according to various pop culture references and stuff if the union decides to go on strike you can't work either.
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DevsBro posted...

I don't know much about it but according to various pop culture references and stuff if the union decides to go on strike you can't work either.

i think that's because when you join a union you sign a contract saying you'll join them if they strike.
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r4X0r posted...

Unions themselves aren't free market. They're essentially a part of the Democratic Party of whatever state they're in. Especially public unions.

how is the idea of workers voluntarily banding together and making collective demands because an employer is treating them poorly NOT the very essence of the free market?

speaking purely from an economics perspective, how is that not the essence of a free market economy?
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

DevsBro posted...

I don't know much about it but according to various pop culture references and stuff if the union decides to go on strike you can't work either.

i think that's because when you join a union you sign a contract saying you'll join them if they strike.

So yeah I would never join personally.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

r4X0r posted...

Unions themselves aren't free market. They're essentially a part of the Democratic Party of whatever state they're in. Especially public unions.

how is the idea of workers voluntarily banding together and making collective demands because an employer is treating them poorly NOT the very essence of the free market?

speaking purely from an economics perspective, how is that not the essence of a free market economy?

The difference here is that you're looking at labor unions from an idealistic perspective while I'm looking at them from a real world perspective with real world experience. If that's all labor unions did, that would be great. But it's not, and they're not. They do not stop at collective bargaining, they're political entities..
They're great if you join one, shitty for everyone else.
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r4X0r posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

r4X0r posted...

Unions themselves aren't free market. They're essentially a part of the Democratic Party of whatever state they're in. Especially public unions.

how is the idea of workers voluntarily banding together and making collective demands because an employer is treating them poorly NOT the very essence of the free market?

speaking purely from an economics perspective, how is that not the essence of a free market economy?

The difference here is that you're looking at labor unions from an idealistic perspective while I'm looking at them from a real world perspective with real world experience. If that's all labor unions did, that would be great. But it's not, and they're not. They do not stop at collective bargaining, they're political entities..
They're great if you join one, shitty for everyone else.

so if the Unions contributed to Republicans instead of Democrats, you'd still be against them?
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r4X0r posted...

while I'm looking at them from a real world perspective with real world experience.

lmao
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Because taking away the collective bargaining and other benefits of the working person means companies have more ways to screw over workers and get more money. Conservative/Republican politicians are paid to be against them and every day Joe-shmoe republicans/conservatives just believe whatever the politicians say, generally speaking.

Of course there's corrupt unions just like there's corrupt versions of everything else. I mean there are businesses that are corrupt, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of all of them and go straight to communism.
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Typically Conservatives ally with big businesses who hate unions.

Unions are a sort of necessary evil. They can easily become corrupt and wind up shutting down a business for asking too much, but without them a lot of workers wind up illegally underpaid, without benefits, raises, or sick days. They also keep companies from firing people without justifiable cause, which can also be turned to keep someone around who is genuinely a negative influence.
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Herugrim posted...

Typically Conservatives ally with big businesses who hate unions.

favoring one part of the market over another isn't very "free market".
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r4X0r posted...

If that's all labor unions did, that would be great. But it's not, and they're not. They do not stop at collective bargaining, they're political entities..
They're great if you join one, shitty for everyone else.

hon let me tell you about corporations
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I'm registered Republican and I'm told my views do lean conservative but I am a member of a union...
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Butterfiles posted...

r4X0r posted...

If that's all labor unions did, that would be great. But it's not, and they're not. They do not stop at collective bargaining, they're political entities..
They're great if you join one, shitty for everyone else.

hon let me tell you about corporations

since he didn't respond to my question about whether he'd still be anti-union if they supported Republicans, I imagine he's OK with them because they support Republicans. basically his response comes down to politics and not pure economics, which is my bad for phrasing the question the way i did.
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Herugrim posted...

Unions are a sort of necessary evil. They can easily become corrupt and wind up shutting down a business for asking too much, but without them a lot of workers wind up illegally underpaid, without benefits, raises, or sick days. They also keep companies from firing people without justifiable cause, which can also be turned to keep someone around who is genuinely a negative influence.

Public-sector unions, however, are complete bullshit.

Well the first issue is the term collectively. a union doesn't run on unanimous vote, even as membership can be mandatory to work in many fields and locations. My uncle has had periods of wanting / needing to get back to work and earn even an unfair paycheck, but the union says no, so he goes without. Shared concerned with other or shared unions also has dictated where he's allowed to shop from time to time.

The rest can pretty much be summed up as "collective bargaining" quickly turns to blackmail. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how a business would not like a group saying "give us everything you want or we'll shut you down", but there's spillover impacting everyone down the line that causes inconvenience and higher cost. When these issues get protracted by groups more interested in keeping a fight going than true negotiation, the enabling device, unions, gets the blame.
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Why would supply-side Jesus be an advocate for unions?
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Because in the past (and too a lesser extent now) unions showcased visible corruption since most people were in unions or worked with unions everyday. Corruption of the rich is less visible even though it can be much worse.

Also unions give minorities power and many closet racists don't like that.
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Herugrim posted...

Typically Conservatives ally with big businesses who hate unions.

Unions are a sort of necessary evil. They can easily become corrupt and wind up shutting down a business for asking too much, but without them a lot of workers wind up illegally underpaid, without benefits, raises, or sick days. They also keep companies from firing people without justifiable cause, which can also be turned to keep someone around who is genuinely a negative influence.

This is a great post. Anyone who thinks unions are a 100% force of good is foolish. However, I'd rather have corruption that benefits common people more than how corruption now mostly benefits the oligarchy.
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