Poll of the Day > Here's why Diablo 2 is so fucking good.

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'm at Duriel, the boss of Act 2. My character simply isn't strong enough to beat him. I didn't level up my character well enough. I don't know of any any game where it basically tells you, "you sucked at playing this game and now you can't beat it." I mean sure, if I kept dying and went back I would kill him eventually, but it would probably take an hour. Fuck that.

My first time playing D2 I got to Diablo and had the same issue. What a game, folks. What a game...
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HeyImAlex posted...

I don't know of any any game where it basically tells you, "you sucked at playing this game and now you can't beat it."

That's not that uncommon, though these days it's considered the mark of a poorly-designed ARPG (at least if there isn't a readily-accessible respec option and/or making a decent build doesn't require any mechanical knowledge that you can only get by advancing later into the game). It's one thing to not be able to handle endgame challenges, since they're supposed to be challenges, but when you need more than common sense to put together a passable build that can clear the basic content, that's just being needlessly inaccessible.
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That's like non scaled enemy levels in mmos. Same thing would happen if you tried to go too far too soon in WoW
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A lot of RPGs have built-in mechanics where said characters needs a minimum level of stats, gear, etc. to beat said content. Diablo II is not unique among these. Oddly enough, the Dark Soul series, despite the difficulty they're known for allows players with the skill to beat about any content with minimal stats and gear.
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Um there are tons of games that wont let you progress if you suck.

It took me AN ENTIRE DAY to beat a main quest in Kingdom Come because I was playing a speech/charisma character in a rare scenario that I couldnt talk my way out of a combat situation.
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HeyImAlex posted...

I don't know of any any game where it basically tells you, "you sucked at playing this game and now you can't beat it."

Sounds like you need to go play more games.
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Go play some of the old Point and Click games.
Miss some easy to miss items in some early screen that you will never be able to return to, play until near the end and the game will give you a Game Over and not say what you missed.
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Duriel is a poorly designed boss, where in the single player mode (ie, where you have to actually do it yourself, not just tag along) several common builds simply cannot win at the levels you'll be when you face him. He's not difficult in a way that makes you think or fight with perfect precision. He's difficult because he's cheap, with a fast-charging stunning attack in a tiny cage designed especially to his strengths.
If you're playing a bow amazon, the build the game most expects you to play if you're a 'zon, you should not have to ditch the bow entirely and take up a javelin/spear just to get past Duriel. And yet....that's the easiest way to beat him in that situation.
Ultimately, Duriel's a "test" of whether you have enough strength for a belt w/ 3 or 4 rows of potion slots or not. That's about it.

He isnt that tough jeez
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HeyImAlex posted...

I'm at Duriel, the boss of Act 2. My character simply isn't strong enough to beat him. I didn't level up my character well enough.

I'm not even sure that's a "didn't level up well enough" problem as much as it is a "Duriel is a motherfucking piece of shit boss" problem. He's literally the only boss in that entire game I ever had a problem soloing when at the suggested level for a given act. He's a roadblock slammed in your way that pretty much demands you either be playing very specific builds, be massively overleveled, or bring other players in with you to beat him.

And on the original subject, that is not a reason I would ever site to argue that Diablo 2 is "so fucking good". If anything, it's one of the things I extremely disliked about that game, and probably played at least some part in why I never really "got into" it and ultimately stopped playing it.

Any game that pretty much requires perfect builds and/or sophisticated multiplayer pack tactics at higher levels (or in this case, even worse, at lower levels) to proceed is not a game I want to waste a single second of my time playing.

It's similar reasoning behind why I have never given a single shit about Dark Souls, and why I will never play any game that reviews describe as being "like Dark Souls".


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but diablo isnt fun

Never got into Diablo II. At the time of its release, I did not have a PC that could run it, though I put a ton of hours into the original Diablo.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Any game that pretty much requires perfect builds and/or sophisticated multiplayer pack tactics at higher levels (or in this case, even worse, at lower levels) to proceed is not a game I want to waste a single second of my time playing.

It's similar reasoning behind why I have never given a single s*** about Dark Souls

But Dark Souls isn't an example of that. Quite the opposite, in fact. Some builds will have an easier time than others, but there are no real gear/build check bosses (past a certain minimum level of common sense, like not using obvious joke weapons with 1 damage and expecting a quick fight). Everything's far more about learning and executing patterns, to the point where SL1 runs aren't actually that difficult if you play patiently.

There are certainly reasons not to like Dark Souls (in particular, the emphasis on trial and error for learning your way around cheap shots, which can get obnoxious), but requiring perfect builds is not one of them.
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adjl posted...

But Dark Souls isn't an example of that.

I said similar reasoning, not the same reasoning.

That reasoning being that you have to spend way more time than is healthy or enjoyable "learning" the game before it becomes "fun". In games like Diablo, that learning is tied to builds. In Dark Souls, it's tied to boss patterns. In most "simulator"-type games, it's tied to learning tons of complex commands or interfaces to get anything done.

Essentially, as an adult human being with something of a life outside of gaming and limits (and a massive plethora of other games and entertainment media constantly competing for my attention), I don't really have the time, patience, or interest to play a game that expects me to suffer through early game and "git gud" before I can really enjoy the game on a significant level. And games where most of the satisfaction comes more from the rush of relief after a long period of frustration rather than from any inherent immediate value can fuck right off.

It's part of why I've drifted towards narrative gameplay - a game that tells me a compelling story over a few hours is worth far more in terms of enjoyment than a game that expects me to be frustrated for 20+ hours to get a few moments of absolutely relief and triumph (before moving on to the next road block).


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Diablo 2 was special. That was a great time for games. MvC2 came out on Dreamcast the same day.
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What's your build and gear?
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Duriel is the best boss - you've been using crowd control and stuns all game,and now the tables are turnt!
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Lokarin posted...

Duriel is the best boss - you've been using crowd control and stuns all game,and now the tables are turnt!

In the early days I hated that encounter as a summonancer. Hell, I hated the Maggot Lair as a whole as a summancer.
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I love D2.

I hate act 2 though. Way too long. At least they give you the cube but god damn!
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Don't forget it introduces the beetles which counter strikes with Charged Bolt... y'know, forcing a player to think and adapt
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Black_Crusher posted...

I love D2.

I hate act 2 though. Way too long. At least they give you the cube but god damn!

Act 2 is actually my favorite act.

Despite Duriel, and the electric beetles, and the maggot lair...

I just like desert areas, and other than those three major headaches, I find the areas and enemies are really fun and diverse in the challenges provided.

I feel like I'm the only one who likes Act 2 the best...

streamofthesky posted...

Black_Crusher posted...

I love D2.

I hate act 2 though. Way too long. At least they give you the cube but god damn!

Act 2 is actually my favorite act.

Despite Duriel, and the electric beetles, and the maggot lair...

I just like desert areas, and other than those three major headaches, I find the areas and enemies are really fun and diverse in the challenges provided.

I feel like I'm the only one who likes Act 2 the best...

no Act 2 is also my favorite

I love the crazy cat people

Duriel killed many fools in Hardcore mode, including one of my elemental summon druids
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summonmancer beat him easily
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JOExHIGASHI posted...

summonmancer beat him easily

Maybe in the 2nd and 3rd runs through....
First playthrough, Summoner Necro is probably the 2nd worst build for Duriel after bowazon. No corpses around to replenish stock mid-battle, minions way too weak to last long, and your golem options are weak or low level.

Once I tried Freezadin I never went back, so much fun.
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Black_Crusher posted...

Once I tried Freezadin I never went back, so much fun.

Hammerdin ruined the game for me. The elemental immunity system was a good idea for multiplayer as it forced combined efforts - but hammerdin could do it all!
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Black_Crusher posted...

Once I tried Freezadin I never went back, so much fun.

I played a lot of Paladin builds, but my favorite was actually an archer paladin. Paladins get absolutely nothing for archery specifically, and the whole build revolved around a low damage, low level unique bow, the Ravenclaw.
But it had one big advantage...each shot exploded, doing the arrow's attack damage in a small area. Combine w/ the Paladin's freeze or shock aura (maxed both, of course) and the damage output w/ the area of effect was just great!
IIRC, b/c it exploded, you didn't even need to "hit," so the paladin's anemic ranged attack score didn't even matter.

The rng(random number generator) and item drops in that game....make me have mixed feelings.

I've always wondered how a Sorceress could beat hell with physical immune monsters *shudders*.
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HitomiKagewaki posted...

I've always wondered how a Sorceress could beat hell with physical immune monsters *shudders*.

Umm....easily?

The real bs was the wraiths in hell difficulty. Do mana burn when they hit, but are still physical immune. Barbarian has exactly one skill that lets him do magic damage...it also drops your Defense to zero while making the attack. Fucking brilliant.

I did feel bad for Lightning Sorcs in Hell mode, though. You can afford to do "Icy-Hot" and just cherry pick a few spells from fire and cold. But if you want to focus in electricity....it's gonna eat all your skill points as you cripplingly over-specialize. Guess that's why lightning immune was the last common elemental immunity?

HitomiKagewaki posted...

The rng(random number generator) and item drops in that game....make me have mixed feelings.

I'm with you here. Ten plus years playing the game and I got exactly one Lo rune and one Gul rune ever. THAT'S IT.

Never got an SoJ, almost had an Anni charm but some asshat used a program to pick it up off the ground from the other side of the screen and exited the game. I was so pissed haha.
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i was thinking of buying d2 this week and playing it for the first time. i want to know what all the hype is..even though the game is like 18+ years old now.
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ernieforss posted...

i was thinking of buying d2 this week and playing it for the first time. i want to know what all the hype is..even though the game is like 18+ years old now.

It looks pretty fucking awful now honestly

You're missing out on most of what made DII so good

Game is a relic
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Ya, it's safe to say it's expired. you can look past the graphics easily, but the actual conventions of gameplay are a thing of the past - what with actually using the F keys to select spells.
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Love the game. It's my most played by far.

Say what you will about cookie-cutter builds, but there are still plenty that can get you through the game and that fulfil their own niches. Experimenting with all the different options is a great deal of fun. The ones that revolve around certain items are especially interesting, e.g. Whirlwind Assassins (my favorite), Auradins, Enchantresses, etc.

(Normal mode) Duriel is a bastard for most builds. I find myself loading up on potions (Mana if I have a powerful attack that can shorten the battle or Health if I need to try and tough it out) and/or portaling in and out like a chicken. Usually both. It takes a while, but I get there in the end.

Another good tip is that it's often better to walk / stand still than run around like a headless chicken. Running reduces your Defense and block rate (to 0% and by 2/3 respectively), so if your character is good in those regards, walk.

Black_Crusher posted...

I'm with you here. Ten plus years playing the game and I got exactly one Lo rune and one Gul rune ever. THAT'S IT.

Never got an SoJ, almost had an Anni charm but some asshat used a program to pick it up off the ground from the other side of the screen and exited the game. I was so pissed haha.

I didn't find anything above a Vex Rune for years (and even that took me ages to find). A recentish patch (one of the 1.13s I think) upped the High Rune drop rate a good bit, and I've found loads since then. Mostly Ohms and Los, but also 2 Bers, a Sur, a Cham and maybe others. Most in Single Player. So I have a completely legit SP Grief, Infinity and Call to Arms. :)

SoJs... I've found 3 or 4 I think. A couple randomly, and one or two when I specifically farmed Nightmare Andy for them. She's your best bet for finding one.

I also did some Dclone hunting back in the day, which was pretty tedious. There was a website which told you the IP addresses of "hot" servers. I'd then join a bunch of games, checking the server IP with the "netstat -n" command, until I found the right server. Then I'd just wait until the "Dclone walks the earth message" would appear and kill him.

Zod Rune and Death's Fathom are now top of my list of items I've yet to find.

Given how much I've played the game, yep, the drop rates are crazy.

MSLE
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streamofthesky posted...

JOExHIGASHI posted...

summonmancer beat him easily

Maybe in the 2nd and 3rd runs through....
First playthrough, Summoner Necro is probably the 2nd worst build for Duriel after bowazon. No corpses around to replenish stock mid-battle, minions way too weak to last long, and your golem options are weak or low level.

I had no problem with him the last time i played
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Any game that pretty much requires perfect builds

Something along these lines might be my only real gripe with D2. There are too many skills and only a few of them are actually worth leveling to create a competent character. I was having fun with my Amazon build but then Duriel happened and that was that.
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Plus, all the builds online assume you wanna play that character to level fucking 60, or whatever. Like, no, I just wanna be able to beat the game. The Amazon build i was reading told me i would really start to see the Amazon worth during level 30, which is the second playthrough. Fuck that.
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Yeah all of that plus you couldn't respec your stats or talents. If you fucked up even one point it was awful
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streamofthesky posted...

Duriel is a poorly designed boss, where in the single player mode (ie, where you have to actually do it yourself, not just tag along) several common builds simply cannot win at the levels you'll be when you face him. He's not difficult in a way that makes you think or fight with perfect precision. He's difficult because he's cheap, with a fast-charging stunning attack in a tiny cage designed especially to his strengths.
If you're playing a bow amazon, the build the game most expects you to play if you're a 'zon, you should not have to ditch the bow entirely and take up a javelin/spear just to get past Duriel. And yet....that's the easiest way to beat him in that situation.
Ultimately, Duriel's a "test" of whether you have enough strength for a belt w/ 3 or 4 rows of potion slots or not. That's about it.

Yeah, i feel all that.
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streamofthesky posted...

Ultimately, Duriel's a "test" of whether you have enough strength for a belt w/ 3 or 4 rows of potion slots or not. That's about it.

Hah! That's a good one.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

I said similar reasoning, not the same reasoning.

That reasoning being that you have to spend way more time than is healthy or enjoyable "learning" the game before it becomes "fun".

That's pretty ridiculously broad, given that it would cover any game that's at all complex, difficult, or otherwise doesn't immediately gratify the player without demanding any effort or thought. Complexity and/or difficulty can certainly be taken too far, and make unreasonable demands as far as perseverance or external research go, but the way you're phrasing that makes it sound like you hate any game that makes you try more than a couple times to surmount a challenge, and at that point you really should be questioning why you're playing a game in the first place.
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But sometimes, y'know, players should be defeated... too many games expect that a player will win, that's not a fair expectation.
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Lokarin posted...

But sometimes, y'know, players should be defeated... too many games expect that a player will win, that's not a fair expectation.

I have a love-hate thing with bosses where you're suppose to lose but the game doesn't make it obvious. I am fairly sure in Final Fantasy III (Famicom) I kept fighting and healing against an early encounter with Bahamut until I realize I was suppose to run away. Granted in this case encountering Bahamut at such a low level shoulda been obvious that I am not suppose to win.
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Or how many times I didn't get a Tyreal's Might...

Unidentified Sacred Armor! Yes! Then it's friggin Kraken shell or whatever the other one was. Noooooo!!

I did managed to trade for a +2 skill Heaven's Light septer before and an eth Arach's Sash. Once I saw some guy with an eth 3 skill Heaven's Light with a Zod in it, but who knows if that was even legit. Imagine the chances of getting both the weapon and then the rune.
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I'm not talking stuff like that, I'm talking beating a player down 'cuz they suck and should get good
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Hammerdin and auto win
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BigOlePappy posted...

Hammerdin and auto win

In general, or when fighting Duriel?

First trip to duriel, a Hammerdin's only a few levels and skill points into his schtick and the hammer damage is fairly shit.
Can still win w/ the hammers, but it's no cakewalk. 2nd and 3rd trips are though, sure.

Black_Crusher posted...

Or how many times I didn't get a Tyreal's Might...

Amazingly enough, I've only ever found one unique Sacred Armor, and it was Tyrael's. I've never found Templar's, the much more common one. Neither are particularly useful though.

streamofthesky posted...

BigOlePappy posted...

Hammerdin and auto win

In general, or when fighting Duriel?

First trip to duriel, a Hammerdin's only a few levels and skill points into his schtick and the hammer damage is fairly shit.
Can still win w/ the hammers, but it's no cakewalk. 2nd and 3rd trips are though, sure.

I can't remember, but I think you can just farm gear if the hammerdin tree is not skilled up enough.
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