Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 438: Nicholas Lowers the Bar

(+) Yeah! (+)

Greatest Royal Rumble is up to 20 guys now

Daniel Bryan
Bray Wyatt
Big Show
Kane
Braun Strowman
Kofi Kingston
Big E
Xavier Woods
Chris Jericho
Kurt Angle
Baron Corbin
Dolph Ziggler
Elias
Shelton Benjamin
Chad Gable
Apollo
Sin Cara
Goldust
Titus ONeil
Mojo Rawley
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Jakyl25 posted...

Eddv posted...

Also hold the phone what about Bret vs Owen at Summerslam 1994 or Bret vs Yoko or are we counting American Samoa as "US Born"

Yokozuna was born in San Francisco

Bret vs Owen never main evented

*looks it up*

WHAT! Taker vs Taker Main evented that card?!?! What the fuck.
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Panthera posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

I took it as him saying he assumed Brock was leaving and thus wouldnt give a shit and hes mad because Brock actually tried hard

"My opponent didn't half ass it and let me win, god this sucks!"

Man I can't stop cheering for this guy!

Maybe they think Millennials will sympathize with his entitlement gone wrong
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As a then 8 year old. Taker vs Taker was HUGE
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Eddv posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Eddv posted...

Also hold the phone what about Bret vs Owen at Summerslam 1994 or Bret vs Yoko or are we counting American Samoa as "US Born"

Yokozuna was born in San Francisco

Bret vs Owen never main evented

*looks it up*

WHAT! Taker vs Taker Main evented that card?!?! What the fuck.

How could anyone even hope to follow a mirror match?
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Panthera posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

I took it as him saying he assumed Brock was leaving and thus wouldnt give a shit and hes mad because Brock actually tried hard

"My opponent didn't half ass it and let me win, god this sucks!"

Man I can't stop cheering for this guy!

That combined with last night's "Despite being thoroughly beaten with no shenanigans whatsoever, I'm getting another chance in a couple weeks. HOW DARE VINCE DO THIS TO ME!!!"
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So like...

They have to be turning Roman heel soon, right?

Or is Roman just going freestyle and trolling the delivery? Or are the writers trolling the content?

Like Roman's whole character and booking has made 0 sense lately even by Roman's standards.
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"Nobody told me that I was getting a title shot again even though I did nothing to deserve one and lost!"

It's like surprising your child with ice cream and your child is pissed off about not being told ahead of time they're getting ice cream.
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Lopen posted...

So like...

They have to be turning Roman heel soon, right?

Or is Roman just going freestyle and trolling the delivery? Or are the writers trolling the content?

Like Roman's whole character and booking has made 0 sense lately even by Roman's standards.

It all makes sense if you just understand that you're supposed to cheer him because that's what Vince wants. Logic be damned.
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Lopen posted...

So like...

They have to be turning Roman heel soon, right?

Or is Roman just going freestyle and trolling the delivery? Or are the writers trolling the content?

Like Roman's whole character and booking has made 0 sense lately even by Roman's standards.

My theory is that they were playing to the crowd instead of against them just this once because they knew that, for this show at least, nothing they could do with Roman mattered
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Lopen posted...

So like...

They have to be turning Roman heel soon, right?

Or is Roman just going freestyle and trolling the delivery? Or are the writers trolling the content?

Like Roman's whole character and booking has made 0 sense lately even by Roman's standards.

I honest to goodness think this is a scheme to get everyone to believe that Roman isn't the handpicked chosen one by Vince.

Like, do they expect anyone to change their mind and say "Wow, in the storyline, Roman isn't the chosen one! That must mean he's not chosen in real life!" They don't, but everything in this building up has been about how Roman isn't the chosen one and it's really Brock.

How has nobody said this idea does not work?
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Dave says that in Brocks new deal, hes allowed one fight in UFC while still under WWE contract, but before he can fight again he has to serve 6 months of drug testing probation which he hasnt started yet.

And UFC wants to book him in a title fight, but how would that look for them if he won the title then just went back to WWE and didnt fight against

So weird
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

They don't, but everything in this building up has been about how Roman isn't the chosen one and it's really Brock.

I love how in the video package they use a single shot of Brock and Vince chatting to back up this point

Oh no, Vince spoke cordially to him once! That bastard!
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Vince spoke to Brock once but he didn't even look Roman in the eye!

Like, I feel like they are treating fans like they're really, really stupid in this storyline.
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I like the theory that Vince is okay giving up on Roman now because Lashley is back

The one that got away...
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Like, I feel like they are treating fans like they're really, really stupid in this storyline

Vince McMahon booking 101
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This is Vince all over.

He no think fan have brain. And to be fair, some of them don't really help their case.
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I honestly think that they feel like we are stupid because we aren't getting on board the Roman train.

It's like they gave the fans what they wanted one year (Wrestlemania 30), and they resent us for not wanting what they were trying to force feed us. Now they're being really stubborn with Roman as punishment for choosing somebody management doesn't want us to like.
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It's stupid because like

If you believe the narrative presented, Roman has legitimately earned more of his opportunities at the title than not. He's had to win number one contender matches or whatever.

So then if those people aren't going to believe that, why are they going to believe another storyline you present them?

I mean the whole thing is seeing the forest for the trees anyway. People wouldn't care if Roman was "the chosen one" if he had an actual compelling character to go with it. Like people would cheer for Strowman to beat Brock not just because "he's not Roman" but because he's actually had fun car crash shenanigans to make people enjoy him. Roman is just some guy with greasy hair that wins a lot. There's nothing really compelling about him whatsoever.

I know preaching to the choir here but this is seriously the dumbest storyline in a long time. This is Goldberg refusing to follow the script levels.
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Lopen posted...

believe that

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Lopen posted...

It's stupid because like

If you believe the narrative presented, Roman has legitimately earned more of his opportunities at the title than not. He's had to win number one contender matches or whatever.

So then if those people aren't going to believe that, why are they going to believe another storyline you present them?

I mean the whole thing is seeing the forest for the trees anyway. People wouldn't care if Roman was "the chosen one" if he had an actual compelling character to go with it. Like people would cheer for Strowman to beat Brock not just because "he's not Roman" but because he's actually had fun car crash shenanigans to make people enjoy him. Roman is just some guy with greasy hair that wins a lot. There's nothing really compelling about him whatsoever.

I know preaching to the choir here but this is seriously the dumbest storyline in a long time. This is Goldberg refusing to follow the script levels.

Seeing Strowman being cionstantly built for Nothing is kind of frustrating. He all but murders Brock and Kane only to lose in a matter of minutes.

Roman needs to get a personality and lose his music which is basically the Shield theme minus the opening crackle.
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https://twitter.com/codyrhodes/status/983799065254211584?s=21

Noted Zelda nerd Cody is gonna name his Vertebreaker Dins Fire.
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Jakyl25 posted...

I like the theory that Vince is okay giving up on Roman now because Lashley is back

The one that got away...

I can't even lie, I'm most on board with this for Roman losing at WM.
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Another thing that seems wrong about Roman is that he just feels... dated. Is long, wet hair like that still in at all? The only people I've seen with long hair like that are usually either gross or they are guitarists from the 90s. He has this cartoony chest plate too. And his character is just a generic tough guy which is the least interesting thing.

People want to jump onto the bandwagon of genuinely nice guys who try really hard, or they seem like they're having fun. Roman is just a bore. He never seems like he's having fun, never seems like he's genuinely grateful for anything and does not come across as a nice guy, and I get they want him to be a militant badass, but a badass has to have something else to him that makes him stand out. If you put freaking Roman Reigns in a group of ten other wrestlers who knew nothing about them, they would probably have the least to say about him.

We have things like Rusev Day that get squandered because Vince doesn't get it at all. But Rusev Day is the most over thing on Smackdown this side of AJ Styles.

I'm back to feeling like I'm almost at odds with Vince in terms of what to like again. I don't get why he just doesn't go with what people are into.
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I think "takes most of the match, loses to a couple of moves" is a problem that plagues WWE matches in general right now, not just Braun matches. Even the main event level stuff. It's really lazy. Used to be something that mostly occurred in Triple H and women's matches but it seems to be spreading more and more these days.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

He never seems like he's having fun, never seems like he's genuinely grateful for anything and does not come across as a nice guy,

The sad thing is that there is a ton of footage of this but it doesnt fit WWEs narrative
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It's typical WWE to run stuff into the ground

People - particularly the kind of audience that boos Reigns - were legitimately worked a few years back by this worked shoot stuff and it did alter perceptions of superstars heading into certain matches. The most obvious example is Cena/Rock 2012, where people got so into the fact that they "legit hated each other". The reaction to the "notes on the wrist" comment was probably the apex of that.

But every other Cena feud for the last five years has had a worked shoot angle (Punk, Bryan, Owens, Styles, even Taker) and it started to get played out a while ago. Reigns is doing it too now, if he wasn't before, and nobody's buying it anymore.

They need something to force a creative paradigm shift in the same way the pipebomb did, because as I said - they've run the reality era into the ground now and this latest Reigns thing is a desperate attempt to revive it by going even further. The creative peak was probably the Bryan story from Summerslam to WM, which was far from perfect but ultimately did exactly what it needed to.

But it's time to move on. 7 years is a long time for an era in WWE.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Is long, wet hair like that still in at all?

I dunno ask Rollins and Ziggler and Rusev and Big Cass and Corbin and Adam Cole and Bo Dallas and Chad Gable and Elias and Jeff Hardy and one of the Usos and Neville (oops) and Nakamura and Kendrick and Viktor

They might know.
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Okay get this

The tag title thing is called a Tag Team Eliminator because Vince now has decided no one can say tournament.
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StealThisSheen posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Is long, wet hair like that still in at all?

I dunno ask Rollins and Ziggler and Rusev and Big Cass and Corbin and Adam Cole and Bo Dallas and Chad Gable and Elias and Jeff Hardy and one of the Usos and Neville (oops) and Nakamura and Kendrick and Viktor

They might know.

Most of these guys at least do something that makes them look interesting, which is my point. Roman's entire look just feels dated. Especially for a guy who is supposed to be the next John Cena. I think most of those guys stand out far more than Roman Reigns does if you put them in a line.
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...Okay, I actually do like "Eliminator," but the rest of that is lol
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Is long, wet hair like that still in at all?

I dunno ask Rollins and Ziggler and Rusev and Big Cass and Corbin and Adam Cole and Bo Dallas and Chad Gable and Elias and Jeff Hardy and one of the Usos and Neville (oops) and Nakamura and Kendrick and Viktor

They might know.

Most of these guys at least do something that makes them look interesting, which is my point. Roman's entire look just feels dated. Especially for a guy who is supposed to be the next John Cena. I think most of those guys stand out far more than Roman Reigns does if you put them in a line.

To be fair, John Cena wrestles in jorts, so in a way, being outdated is part of being the next John Cena
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I don't know if Rusev Day is more over than Bryan. Hell, I don't know if AJ is more over then Bryan. I don't know if anyone on the roster right now is more over then Bryan.
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To be fair, John Cena wrestles in jorts, so in a way, being outdated is part of being the next John Cena

It's because the way to get pushed in WWE isn't to win over the crowd, it's to win over an audience of one, Vince McMahon, who is, in fact, outdated as all fuck.
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I did forget about Daniel Bryan who is most over. But Rusev Day is easily third most over on Smackdown.
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I have no problem with Roman's look btw I think that's one of the few things that are relatively okay about him.

1. I don't know a single thing about what actually drives him aside from wanting to win.
2. Doesn't really get upset about anything.
3. Usually is beat up a lot more than he dishes out.
4. Overuse of Superman Punch. It is not an impressive looking move. This is half the reason you can't believe Roman's victories. The other half is point 3 combined with the fact that he just kicks out way too much.

Those are the issues. It all combines to create a guy that not only strains suspension of disbelief, but a guy you don't want to strain it for-- it's pretty much the worst problem. Guys in the past with issues were usually one or the other. Like Cena's offense aside from the STF generally looks more or less credible. Hogan for most of his run had an overwhelming personality that you couldn't help but root for despite most of his offense and in match mannerisms being total nonsense.
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Lopen posted...

3. Usually is beat up a lot more than he dishes out.

To be more specific, its that his comebacks are implausible given his punishment

Getting beat up a lot is fine for a face. Hogan built a career around selling for 10 minutes and then suddenly not anymore.
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Lets compare qnd contrast this with Braun and its really easy to see the difference

1) Hes got the whole honor thing plus the fact that he just legitimately wants to be recognized for being the monster that he is. He should not be playing second fiddle to anyone with what hes capable of yada yada.

2) He gets upset ALL THE TIME. He also is capable of some fairly effective trolling as we saw in the Bar feud.

3) Is in control for a solid 80% of his matches with the sole exception of the 1 on 1 Brock match which was more 50/50

4) His offense looks cool as fuck

Its really easy to see why he has won over the crowd in ways roman hasnt
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Also the more I think about WM the more I think they absolutely need to find a way to make it a 2-night show, or start compromising it a bit

I was really enjoying the first half of it, and not just because of the generally better matches in the first half (I guess mostly because of that, but still). It just got too tiring by the end and you have Styles/Nakamura working an exhausted crowd - not saying the match disappointed because of that, but it's part of the reason. Then the main event, which was a disaster anyway but it was even worse because the show was 7 hours long.

Like I was at WM29, a comparatively streamlined show, and Punk/Undertaker exhausted not just me but everyone around us. And we'd been there half the time the audience were at this WM. Again, it wouldn't necessarily have saved

The last great WM was 30, and yes that is because of the streak ending, Bryan winning and generally good-to-great match quality - and the fact that every WM since has been under this weird duress, the conflict over Reigns spilling out into main events - but also because that show was streamlined really effectively. Four big matches, two breather matches and the Battle Royal. That's a very nice, non-tiring structure. You can't do that every time, but I think you could approach something similar to that if you had it over two nights. I reckon since the women have such greater importance now, there's more scope to promote those matches heavily and make them into draws for each night, so both nights have something big. OK, nobody bought a ticket for Nia vs. Alexa, but Charlotte/Asuka and the mixed tag were well-anticipated. No reason you couldn't replicate that, especially with Rousey giving the division more star power for presumably a few WMs now.
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Well my point is that Roman basically has Hogan's match paradigm without the charisma of Hogan's character. You need one or the other. Plausibility or likability. If you don't have either you have Hogan when the fans were starting to turn on him or Roman Reigns pretty much all the time. Cena never had it that bad because you could always believe what he was doing by some stretch because the guy at the very least had the feats of strength and match structure to back it up-- even if you didn't particularly like Cena you could begrudgingly accept that he earned his wins.
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Alvarez pointed out that there was one particularly odd line in Romans promo where he said If you keep putting me in title matches with Brock Lesnar, Im eventually gonna walk out as Champion which, given the rest of the promo, seems meant to imply that hes gonna shoot beat Brock against the script.

The reality angle isnt even grounded in any sort of plausible reality
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Agree with everything XIII said

They could even test run it with the Rumble first if theyre skittish. With 2 Rumbles it makes all the sense in the world
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Last thing:
Asuka is just the best. Any interview I watch of her makes me like her more. Something kind of genuine about her, idk.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Alvarez pointed out that there was one particularly odd line in Romans promo where he said If you keep putting me in title matches with Brock Lesnar, Im eventually gonna walk out as Champion which, given the rest of the promo, seems meant to imply that hes gonna shoot beat Brock against the script.

The reality angle isnt even grounded in any sort of plausible reality

No, but it's grounded in MWC reality
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I'd honestly rather them just compromise Mania's length.

Is it really some sort of honor to be on the card when literally everyone's on it? Are you really fooling any of the talent into thinking they've achieved something with participation awards?
Is anyone buying Mania because it's 7 hours?

Just be more efficient with what you wanna do, man. 2 day event I don't think will help the situation as much as just shortening it a bit.
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8 p.m. 4.10 million viewers
9 p.m. 4.07 million viewers
10 p.m. 3.60 million viewers

Better than last years post-Mania Raw
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I like seeing everyone tbh. I'm not ashamed to say that part of what I look forward to about WM is what they do with the entrances, the "show" aspect of it, all that stuff.

Basically I like almost everything that was there, in theory (obviously Reigns/Lesnar needed to be better), it just got to be an awful lot by the end. You could basically have cleaved this WM in half to prevent that crowd exhaustion. I don't see why they wouldn't at this point if they've shown they can fill seven+ hours of content, including a couple of matches - like Cena/Undertaker - that ran very short.

And it's not just about "filling time" - I think that's the wrong phrase. The roster is full of good wrestlers. Orton is good, Rusev is good, Roode is good...and Mahal is not but fine. They're in a four-way that lasted 8 minutes. Cesaro and Sheamus are really, really good and they're in a joke match that lasted four. You could do three WMs with this roster of talent and then really give them time to produce excellent matches if you wanted to.

(I'm not suggesting three WMs, I'm just saying with the talent they have it's more than possible)
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The problem with splitting it to prevent exhaustion is:

1. HoF and NXT exist. A lot of the fans are following this. Do you then need to make the entirety of the festivities 3 days?
2. People must book their trips and stuff to stay for an additional day to get the whole show.
3. People are going to have some amount of burnout from X consecutive days of wrestling shows I think, even if it's ultimately lessened compared to a 7 hour marathon.
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Lopen posted...

Well my point is that Roman basically has Hogan's match paradigm without the charisma of Hogan's character. You need one or the other. Plausibility or likability. If you don't have either you have Hogan when the fans were starting to turn on him or Roman Reigns pretty much all the time. Cena never had it that bad because you could always believe what he was doing by some stretch because the guy at the very least had the feats of strength and match structure to back it up-- even if you didn't particularly like Cena you could begrudgingly accept that he earned his wins.

Eh, I think you did have that issue with Cena for a little while. Maybe 06 - 09 or thereabouts. He was a bland and uninteresting character that also had implausible (get beat up forever, random AA, STF, make anyone tap out) outcomes.

But then they eventually figured it out, and the character got better as he got a little less serious, and the outcomes also improved as he started to lose more (or at least was kept out of the ME when he was steamrolling people)

Reigns is basically Cena at his worst, but also in an era where the fans are generally less tolerant of that sort of bullshit, and where competition is a lot stronger even within the company. It's one thing to be annoyed at Cena when the alternative is Orton, or old/injured Edge. But in this era, you're annoyed at Reigns when the alternative is Daniel Bryan or Kevin Owens or any huge amount of potential people who are both 100x more charismatic and 100x better wrestlers than Roman is.
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DabiBseU0AAyb7b?format=jpg&name=small

Brauns Dad is cool
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