Board 8 > Just got done watching Infinity War *spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

I mean you can be moved by the ending while also being totally aware they're coming back

Spidey realizing he was dying before it happened (Spidey Sense) was a pretty strong scene
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TheRock1525 posted...

I'm kinda bummed that Captain America really didn't have a "moment" with Thanos. Of course he didn't have his proper shield so I assume at some point he's gonna get to smack Thanos in the face with it.

We still haven't followed up on Cap budging Mjolnir a bit in AoU and A4 is rumored to involve time travel so I'm picturing Cap just beating the piss out of Thanos with shield + time travel retrieved Mjolnir.

He still needs to drop an "Avengers assemble!" before he bites it too.
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LeonhartFour posted...

I mean you can be moved by the ending while also being totally aware they're coming back

Spidey realizing he was dying before it happened (Spidey Sense) was a pretty strong scene

This. Just because you know an ending isn't gonna stick, or you already saw it coming, or whatever doesn't mean it still can't have an impact in the moment
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Yeah. I wasn't emotionally affected by the ending just because of how obvious it was that it won't stick, but I still appreciate it for the drama.

From the perspective of the characters, this is devastating. I don't think the plot needs to be more convincing to the audience for it to work.
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StealThisSheen posted...

LeonhartFour posted...

I mean you can be moved by the ending while also being totally aware they're coming back

Spidey realizing he was dying before it happened (Spidey Sense) was a pretty strong scene

This. Just because you know an ending isn't gonna stick, or you already saw it coming, or whatever doesn't mean it still can't have an impact in the moment

All of this. I hate the whole mindset of "oh well all of these characters have future movies/they wouldn't get rid of this person so obviously they aren't gone for good so why does it matter". It's such a robotic way to think about things.
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Tokoyami posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

LeonhartFour posted...

I mean you can be moved by the ending while also being totally aware they're coming back

Spidey realizing he was dying before it happened (Spidey Sense) was a pretty strong scene

This. Just because you know an ending isn't gonna stick, or you already saw it coming, or whatever doesn't mean it still can't have an impact in the moment

All of this. I hate the whole mindset of "oh well all of these characters have future movies/they wouldn't get rid of this person so obviously they aren't gone for good so why does it matter". It's such a robotic way to think about things.

I said that even in the context of the movie itself the ending was hackneyed and trite. Notice how I never criticized Doctor Strange even though on the face it looked like he was the biggest fool of them all.

Time travel makes everything bullshit.
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Tokoyami posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

LeonhartFour posted...

I mean you can be moved by the ending while also being totally aware they're coming back

Spidey realizing he was dying before it happened (Spidey Sense) was a pretty strong scene

This. Just because you know an ending isn't gonna stick, or you already saw it coming, or whatever doesn't mean it still can't have an impact in the moment

All of this. I hate the whole mindset of "oh well all of these characters have future movies/they wouldn't get rid of this person so obviously they aren't gone for good so why does it matter". It's such a robotic way to think about things.

Agreed.

I see people saying this about Gamora in particular. "Oh, they can't bring her back, it cheapens one of the most emotional scenes in the movie!"

Like... Why? It still gives Thanos a lot more depth and is heartbreaking for Quill in the moment. Undoing the death doesn't undo the drama.
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Anyone else really doesn't want a newcomer like Captain Marvel to be the one to save the day?
I won't be surprised if she will be the big star of Avenger 4
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I don't think she'll save the day on her own. Her role is going to be taking the mantle from the Phase 1 guys who are going away after this.
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NFUN we get it you don't like Marvel movies

You can go away, it's okay
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TheRock1525 posted...

I'm kinda bummed that Captain America really didn't have a "moment" with Thanos. Of course he didn't have his proper shield so I assume at some point he's gonna get to smack Thanos in the face with it.

It was low-key but they kinda had a moment at the end when Cap was trying to push back Thanos's Gauntlet hand, Thanos looked like he was thinking "shit, this dude is kinda legit" before he punched him in the face with his other hand
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StealThisSheen posted...

NFUN we get it you don't like Marvel movies

You can go away, it's okay

I didn't say the movie was bad because it was action over substance or anything. I'm saying these aspects were poorly thought out and stupid. They aren't bad because it's a Marvel movie. They're bad because it's bad storytelling in general, but that's a nice automatic deflection you've got there.
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uNFUN
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Wait nfun I thought you hadn't seen any Marvel movies and were against seeing any of them? At least that's the impression I got on discord
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NFUN posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

NFUN we get it you don't like Marvel movies

You can go away, it's okay

I didn't say the movie was bad because it was action over substance or anything. I'm saying these aspects were poorly thought out and stupid. They aren't bad because it's a Marvel movie. They're bad because it's bad storytelling in general, but that's a nice automatic deflection you've got there.

I mean it's not deflection when you go into every Marvel topic and post things like "every marvel movie is mediocre at best"
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I've seen Iron Man 1, 2 and 3, most of the Avengers, Doctor Strange, and good portions of Captain America and the Thors just on TV. The only one I enjoyed was Doctor Strange (and Iron Man 1, but that was around the age where I liked the Transformers movie), and I could read the pattern of the films a mile away. Infinity War did not defy these expectations.

My friends wanted me to go so I said whatever.
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StealThisSheen posted...

NFUN posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

NFUN we get it you don't like Marvel movies

You can go away, it's okay

I didn't say the movie was bad because it was action over substance or anything. I'm saying these aspects were poorly thought out and stupid. They aren't bad because it's a Marvel movie. They're bad because it's bad storytelling in general, but that's a nice automatic deflection you've got there.

I mean it's not deflection when you go into every Marvel topic and post things like "every marvel movie is mediocre at best"

It is when the issues I've raised are completely independent of the issues I have with Marvel movies in general.

Unless, I suppose, you consider my issue with Marvel movies purely "they aren't good", and believe that these flaws are indicative of it not being good.
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And they are issues that both sides have had their say on so what's really the point of continuing to try to go "No you're wrong"
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StealThisSheen posted...

And they are issues that both sides have had their say on so what's really the point of continuing to try to go "No you're wrong"

Because it's a discussion?
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"Well, it works because of this."
"No it's not it's bad."
"No, we're fine with it because of x."
"No it's not it's bad."

Isn't really much of a discussion but whatever I guess
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Are you so fucking enamored with this movie that you can't handle any fucking criticism? I'm actually pissed because I put substance into my posts. Say whatever the fuck you want, but don't handwave away any arguments made because you don't agree with the conclusions. You can't fucking distill any part of anybody's arguments in the thread but your own into "no u wrong LOL".
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I mean people have come up with responses for why they're not bad storytelling or poorly thought out and you still insist they are

not sure what more discussion there is to be had when you've made up your mind already
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LeonhartFour posted...

I mean people have come up with responses for why they're not bad storytelling or poorly thought out and you still insist they are

not sure what more discussion there is to be had when you've made up your mind already

Is the success of a discussion defined by people changing their minds? I brought up issues, people said why they were fine, I countered those reasons, they countered mine. Everybody had their mind made up already.

I even conceded a fucking point.
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what else did you want to discuss

you didn't bring up anything new

you just went "no those things are still terrible"
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I joined into a larger discussion about the ending.
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Fuck you Rock don't steal my material.
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This movie was brutal.

Here's a not necessarily exhaustive list of moments that evoked a STRONG emotional response from me:

- Thor forced to watch while Thanos murders his brother in front of him.

- Thor's conversation with Rocket about what he's lost.

- Gamora begging Quill to promise to kill her.

- Vision doing the same with Wanda.

- Flashback to Gamora's 'adoption' by Thanos.

- Gamora breaking down after she 'kills' Thanos.

- Thanos breaking Gamora by torturing Nebula.

- Gamora's death.

- Quill's utterly bewildered, "Did we lose???"

- FUCKING GROOT

- FUCKING SPIDER-MAN

- Watching the survivors stand there in complete shock, and all Captain America can do is say, "Oh God."

I can neither confirm nor deny that I may have teared up during more than one of those. All this with me knowing 110% that most of this is going to be undone.

I feel bad for people who are so completely unable to empathize with these characters that there wasn't at least one moment in this movie that moved them to feel something.

"Howl, howl, howl, howl! Oh, you are men of stones. Had I your tongues and eyes, I'd use them so that heaven's vault should crack."
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NFUN posted...

Are you so fucking enamored with this movie that you can't handle any fucking criticism? I'm actually pissed because I put substance into my posts. Say whatever the fuck you want, but don't handwave away any arguments made because you don't agree with the conclusions. You can't fucking distill any part of anybody's arguments in the thread but your own into "no u wrong LOL".

No I just have a hard time taking any discussion seriously when it's from somebody who has made it a point to just show up in topics just to go "These movies are bad" and who is basically just replying to discussion with "No it's still bad"

That's all

EDIT: Like, basically, when you have a history of trolling on the subject, you shouldn't be mad when people are less interested in discussing the subject with you
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I've posted over 6000 words enumerating my specific issues in detail and in good faith you shit. That's the one argument you can't use against me.

I even said I enjoyed the majority of it in my first fucking post.

I troll the subject as much as foolmo does with BotW. If you think that's trolling you need thicker skin.
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To be fair, if I had to pick one person to be the 'MCU troll' on this board, it would be Eddv. He's always jumping in to literally say, "MCU is fucking terrible, LOL," and doesn't really put any effort into justifying that.
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the thing about no fun is that he takes the position of these "these movies are not intelligent and follow very predictable patterns that I can easily see coming because I'm so much smarter than the movie" but the things he actually says about the movie don't really make any sense. Like he actually can't understand that these are characters within the movie with limited perspective, and seems really perplexed when they don't do exactly what he thinks the right move is. They make decisions that aren't perfectly efficient and think that's somehow a detriment to the film. It's like he doesn't know he's watching a movie.

so that's pretty neat
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well nobody takes Eddv's negative opinions on anything seriously

he was crossing his fingers that this ending would cause so much backlash that it would collapse the entire MCU after all
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CoolCly posted...

"these movies are not intelligent and follow very predictable patterns that I can easily see coming because I'm so much smarter than the movie"

I think this is the biggest problem with his more genuine arguments, yeah

This stance is the worst and he's always coming from it
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CoolCly posted...

the thing about no fun is that he takes the position of these "these movies are not intelligent and follow very predictable patterns that I can easily see coming because I'm so much smarter than the movie" but the things he actually says about the movie don't really make any sense. Like he actually can't understand that these are characters within the movie with limited perspective, and seems really perplexed when they don't do exactly what he thinks the right move is. They make decisions that aren't perfectly efficient and think that's somehow a detriment to the film. It's like he doesn't know he's watching a movie.

so that's pretty neat

I doubt very much that this is worth responding to anymore, but I'll bite.

The way I see it, there are two ways of evaluating movies: objectively and subjectively. Now, obviously trying to judge anything like this objectively is a load of bullshit and not worth anybody's time. You're jumping to an erroneous conclusion when looking at my points. When I say "Marvel movies are not intelligent and follow very predictable patterns", I'm don't then say, or mean to imply, that "[only] I can easily see coming because I'm so much smarter than the movie [or moviegoers]", but "and I think this is a bad thing". Everybody looks to different things in judging any piece of media. I prefer subtlety or well-foreshadowed twists or something that is generally more cerebrally than viscerally engaging (this sounds pretentious as fuck but I'm too lazy to change it, but I stand by it. One of my favorite movies is 12 Angry Men, aka 90 minutes of arguing. Ask scarlet for more a more detailed breakdown). Other people like action or tragic deaths or heroism in the face of adversity, and that's fine. You're just essentially getting up-in-arms about how I don't affix "in my opinion" to every one of my statements about the quality of Marvel movies in general. Some people like these movies. They aren't wrong. I don't. I'm not wrong either. I perhaps don't need to go into topics and voice my opinions, but if challenged, I'm always willing to earnestly elucidate why.

Next. The characters don't have perfect foresight. They're human. That's fine. Humans can also be dumb and make mistakes and be lambasted over those mistakes. If those mistakes are so severe as to break the suspension of disbelief or to get people angry about them, it's bad storytelling. I never said every questionable decision every character made was terrible. Both Loki and Gamora gave up their stones in the face of torture of a friend (though why didn't Gamora know about the sacrifice despite her sister knowing?), and I think that's reasonable. Strange did too, but he had ulterior motives. Notice how I focused on 3 situations to complain about instead of nitpicking every scene.

Scarlett is different. Her entire arc had revolved around protecting Vision and his stone. Everything she had done since two minutes after her introduction was to serve that end, and even before then, she was having a conversation about never leaving Vision which was brought up multiple times later. Her having the impulse to run off and fight is understandable and fair, but she ultimately did so to progress the plot. There were so many other things she could've done to avoid that mistake, a mistake that should have been clear to her even in her limited perspective, but it still happened, completely needlessly.

I don't need characters to act perfectly efficiently. I just want them to think about their actions to any degree at all, to at least consider the clear and obvious consequences. Like, calling in one of those mercenary criminal guys. They might've gotten their ass kicked by the miniboss, and it would've been a mistake, but a mistake that makes sense in context, rather than obnoxious, abject idiocy.
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Can things be objective about a movie?

If I shoot a movie where it's just 3 hours of a piece of paper and someone calls it brilliant, are they objectively wrong?
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TheRock1525 posted...

Can things be objective about a movie?

If I shoot a movie where it's just 3 hours of a piece of paper and someone calls it brilliant, are they objectively wrong?

well you have to define what makes a movie great to have any framework to base the objective evaluation on and since those original criteria are subjective, probably not (though some "common sense", objective bounds based on human psychology could be used to say it's trash, making it subjective to the human race as a whole which is as objective as we need).

saying something is good or bad objectively is generally just provides a useful heuristic to ignore that person's opinion
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NFUN posted...

(though why didn't Gamora know about the sacrifice despite her sister knowing?),

Nebula didn't necessarily know, but she knew what it meant when Gamora didn't come back. She knows that Thanos loves Gamora. Thanos returning without Gamora, and feeling immense loss...She put it together. It wasn't exactly difficult for her to figure out.
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Fair enough. I thought she explicitly mentioned the Soul Stone required a sacrifice, but that's a reasonable deduction.
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even if Gamora did know about what the Soul Stone required (it seems that she didn't from what I saw), she didn't believe Thanos actually loved her, so if she did know, she thought it would be a roadblock he couldn't pass
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oh yeah she still would've gone. Just both her and Thanos seemed surprised about it
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Any fan theories about Gamora being Death?
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Well, Thanos didn't know anything about the Soul Stone, so it's understandable that he was surprised. Dude's powerful, but he's not omniscient.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Any fan theories about Gamora being Death?

I feel like the more they get away from Thanos' "I love Death itself" comic motivation is a positive. It's always seemed pretty dumb to me.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Any fan theories about Gamora being Death?

Somebody (I believe it was Feige) confirmed that Gamora is simply trapped in the Soul Stone right now.

That doesn't necessarily mean they won't transition her into being Death, but it's probably unlikely.
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KamikazePotato posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Any fan theories about Gamora being Death?

I feel like the more they get away from Thanos' "I love Death itself" comic motivation is a positive. It's always seemed pretty dumb to me.

Death's (sometimes) actually pretty hot in Marvel, to be fair.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ETpC4A6Afm4/maxresdefault.jpg

I can kind of see Thanos' point here.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Any fan theories about Gamora being Death?

that would be a weird move because she's his daughter NBIceman posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Any fan theories about Gamora being Death?

Somebody (I believe it was Feige) confirmed that Gamora is simply trapped in the Soul Stone right now.

That doesn't necessarily mean they won't transition her into being Death, but it's probably unlikely.

also making her Death doesn't seem like it adds anything at this point. His love for Death is just supposed to be his motivation for killing people, but they already gave him a different motivation, so what's Death's role going to be?
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DC superheroes should not have a monopoly on incestuous relationships
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I mean, it's not his literal daughter. And the love of Death doesn't have to be a sexual one.
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KamikazePotato posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Any fan theories about Gamora being Death?

I feel like the more they get away from Thanos' "I love Death itself" comic motivation is a positive. It's always seemed pretty dumb to me.

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gamora should be alive in the soul stone, haunt thanos's dreams and cause him to be distracted or lose conviction
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