Current Events > Talking to developers is like pulling teeth sometimes

Topic List
Page List: 1, 2
pinky0926
05/22/18 7:20:57 AM
#1:


Say you wanted to make a cup of tea and that was a reasonably skill specific developer task in this weird hypothetical universe.

Me: Hey, so we need to make a cup of tea for Sarah.
Dev: tea isn't good for you. Too much caffeine.
Me: Ok granted and I agree, but this is what the client is asking for here. Could you give me an estimate on how long would it take? What would you need in terms of specs/equipment etc?
Dev: kettle doesn't work.
Me: Ok, so we need a new kettle. So if I provide that to you you should be set?
Dev: why does she want tea?
Me: Well, to drink it.
Dev: they shouldn't drink tea. There are better drinks, like mountain dew.
Me: Ok putting aside personal feelings about tea, if we can agree it's not actually an unreasonable request and it's within our power and skillset and service level and the price is right, how would we go about doing it? I've got the kettle down. What else would you need?
Dev: It can't be done because the kettle is being used for coffee.
Me: I thought you said the kettle doesn't work?
Dev: No it works but we don't have time to use it.
Me: Ok, so you need more time, or perhaps another kettle resource?
Dev: Maybe. It's hard to say. There's a lot of factors, it's all very complicated.
Me: Alright, so that's why we're having this discussion, to puzzle out the factors and what you'll need to help.
Dev: I just don't understand why they want tea

There's lots of memes on the internet about $users but here's the other side of it.Trying to get developers to do something they feel is beneath their time and extraordinary intelligence is one of the most persistently annoying parts of my day job.
---
CE's Resident Scotsman.
https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV
... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1
05/22/18 7:22:46 AM
#2:


This is quite accurate yeah
---
Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two.
... Copied to Clipboard!
YOUHAVENOHOPE
05/22/18 7:28:37 AM
#3:


... Copied to Clipboard!
thecoolgu
05/22/18 7:31:27 AM
#4:


Reminds me of Patrick Star and "It's not my walllet."
---
This signature only exists because my post would be eccentric without it.
... Copied to Clipboard!
do_ob_tpkillr
05/22/18 7:32:43 AM
#5:


Because when the client's mouth explodes from drinking too much tea, somehow it's still the developer's fault.
... Copied to Clipboard!
thelovefist
05/22/18 7:34:36 AM
#6:


Maybe it's just a genuinely bad idea.
---
N/A
... Copied to Clipboard!
Rika_Furude
05/22/18 7:36:58 AM
#7:


maybe if clients wernt so stupid and actually took the advice of the people with skills this conversation wouldnt need to happen

"client wants windows xp rolled out to 2000 users"
"its 2018 windows xp is a massive security risk and none of our software works on it anymore"
"make it happen"

ugh
---
... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926
05/22/18 7:40:23 AM
#8:


I certainly understand the frustration developers have when they build something that is a bad idea and it bounces back on them. That's usually project manager/account manager's fault too, for not setting expectations or actually ironing out the requirements properly.

But it also creates this artificial situation where developers feel frankly way too cocky about every idea that pops up, and they just kind of sadistically enjoy complicating things.

My main problem is the way they deliver feedback. I guess it's kind of part and parcel to the mindset required to build complex code structure to be almost totally terrible at basic human communication.
---
CE's Resident Scotsman.
https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV
... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1
05/22/18 7:44:07 AM
#9:


pinky0926 posted...
I certainly understand the frustration developers have when they build something that is a bad idea and it bounces back on them. That's usually project manager/account manager's fault too, for not setting expectations or actually ironing out the requirements properly.

But it also creates this artificial situation where developers feel frankly way too cocky about every idea that pops up, and they just kind of sadistically enjoy complicating things.

My main problem is the way they deliver feedback. I guess it's kind of part and parcel to the mindset required to build complex code structure to be almost totally terrible at basic human communication.

There's also the issue that the salespeople are selling things that can't be delivered. So they sign really good-looking deals and get a lot of appreciation, then the devs get the shit when they can't deliver on impossible promises.
---
Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two.
... Copied to Clipboard!
EverDownward
05/22/18 7:45:49 AM
#10:


The day a publisher actively pursues an amiable relationship with the consumer is the day Hell itself freezes over.
---
"And you can't tell me what my spirit tells me isn't true,
can you?"
... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926
05/22/18 7:47:59 AM
#11:


scar the 1 posted...
There's also the issue that the salespeople are selling things that can't be delivered. So they sign really good-looking deals and get a lot of appreciation, then the devs get the shit when they can't deliver on impossible promises.


I've been on that end too. It sucks. I've had a few account manager roles where I would look after existing clients, and so I'd deal with all the client bullshit after the sales person had sold them the world on a shoestring budget. I'd get it from both ends. Devs acting grumpy because they can't do the work and clients freaking out because they're not getting results despite promises.

Still, I don't think acting churlish to your own team members over it solves anything.
---
CE's Resident Scotsman.
https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV
... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1
05/22/18 7:52:33 AM
#12:


pinky0926 posted...
scar the 1 posted...
There's also the issue that the salespeople are selling things that can't be delivered. So they sign really good-looking deals and get a lot of appreciation, then the devs get the shit when they can't deliver on impossible promises.


I've been on that end too. It sucks. I've had a few account manager roles where I would look after existing clients, and so I'd deal with all the client bullshit after the sales person had sold them the world on a shoestring budget. I'd get it from both ends. Devs acting grumpy because they can't do the work and clients freaking out because they're not getting results despite promises.

Still, I don't think acting churlish to your own team members over it solves anything.

I agree with you, but I think it's a contributing factor to devs feeling like they "know better" a lot of the time.
---
Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two.
... Copied to Clipboard!
thelovefist
05/22/18 7:54:35 AM
#13:


Have to tried taking a user story approach TC?
Instead of "make a cup of tea for Sarah" try "As Sarah, she needs to be able drink a hot beverage of her choice"
---
N/A
... Copied to Clipboard!
Doom_Art
05/22/18 7:55:47 AM
#14:


Incorrect

That exchange is much worse than pulling teeth
---
Not removing this until Mega Man 64 is released on the Wii Virtual Console. Started on: 12/1/2009
https://imgur.com/mPvcy
... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926
05/22/18 8:10:10 AM
#15:


thelovefist posted...
Have to tried taking a user story approach TC?
Instead of "make a cup of tea for Sarah" try "As Sarah, she needs to be able drink a hot beverage of her choice"


Usually by this point all of that discussion has already taken place. Either because I probed the client to find out what the client really actually needed ("Why do you want tea, what are you actually trying to do?") or by going back to the developers and getting their input ("Clients says she wants tea, what do you think? Is there a better option, how and why?")

But if tea is the decision and all of the conversation has already been had and expectations set (and it likely has, because I wouldn't sit down and try to plan out a bunch of work with the dev team before being really sure on the requirements), they we just need to freakin' do it. Few things more annoying than receiving the listless and aimless input of someone who knows what they need to do but just doesn't really want to, so they make it more difficult than it has to be.
---
CE's Resident Scotsman.
https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV
... Copied to Clipboard!
#16
Post #16 was unavailable or deleted.
SavenForever
05/22/18 8:17:00 AM
#17:


Sounds about right.
---
... Copied to Clipboard!
Were_Wyrm
05/22/18 8:21:36 AM
#18:


The worst part is 98% of the time Sarah takes one sip of the tea and decides she wants her tea turned into Mountain Dew.
---
I was a God, Valeria. I found it...beneath me. - Dr. Doom
https://imgur.com/M1TnV8w
... Copied to Clipboard!
EnragedSlith
05/22/18 8:24:55 AM
#19:


Sounds like your devs are being treated like coffee boys and their input isnt being respected. What your dev realizes is that the shit is going to roll back to him when hes working nights to fix the thing that shouldve been rectified in the first place. He probably, possibly incorrectly, assumes you didnt do your job and are passing the buck onto his team.

That is sort of his job, though.
---
... Copied to Clipboard!
Rexdragon125
05/22/18 8:26:33 AM
#20:


do_ob_tpkillr posted...
Because when the client's mouth explodes from drinking too much tea, somehow it's still the developer's fault.

thelovefist posted...
Maybe it's just a genuinely bad idea.

This. Users are extraordinarily bad at thinking through consequences of feature requests.

"We need a delete button to delete our tea!"
"WE DELETED OUR TEA, WHERE DID IT GO, FIX IT"
... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926
05/22/18 8:27:34 AM
#21:


EnragedSlith posted...
Sounds like your devs are being treated like coffee boys and their input isnt being respected. What your dev realizes is that the shit is going to roll back to him when hes working nights to fix the thing that shouldve been rectified in the first place. He probably, possibly incorrectly, assumes you didnt do your job and are passing the buck onto his team.

That is sort of his job, though.


That is one possible scenario. The other is that the dev fancies himself the arbiter of good decision making and kind of just enjoys being contentious for the sake of it.

Both scenarios seem to happen frequently
---
CE's Resident Scotsman.
https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV
... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926
05/22/18 8:28:27 AM
#22:


Rexdragon125 posted...
This. Users are extraordinarily bad at thinking through consequences of feature requests.

"We need a delete button to delete our tea!"
"WE DELETED OUR TEA, WHERE DID IT GO, FIX IT"


Which does happen but are you really gonna pretend like devs never get it wrong

This is what annoys me. Like we should accept that devs never get it wrong, it's always users acting like brainless monkeys.
---
CE's Resident Scotsman.
https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV
... Copied to Clipboard!
Rika_Furude
05/22/18 8:31:07 AM
#23:


pinky0926 posted...
it's always users acting like brainless monkeys.

Not just users. Salesmen and management as well. And then the finance department never approves nescessary purchases until its too late
---
Posted with GameRaven 3.4
... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926
05/22/18 8:33:44 AM
#24:


Rika_Furude posted...
pinky0926 posted...
it's always users acting like brainless monkeys.

Not just users. Salesmen and management as well. And then the finance department never approves nescessary purchases until its too late


So everyone is necessarily wrong, except the developer

spot the developer lel
---
CE's Resident Scotsman.
https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV
... Copied to Clipboard!
Rika_Furude
05/22/18 8:34:44 AM
#25:


pinky0926 posted...
Rika_Furude posted...
pinky0926 posted...
it's always users acting like brainless monkeys.

Not just users. Salesmen and management as well. And then the finance department never approves nescessary purchases until its too late


So everyone is necessarily wrong, except the developer

spot the developer lel

Nah, engineers are alright as well.
---
Posted with GameRaven 3.4
... Copied to Clipboard!
Squall28
05/22/18 8:37:40 AM
#26:


More than likely it's because the client or sales team wants something that's not feasible or will end up biting them or the company in the ass. A better analogy would be if the client wants a hole at the bottom of their cup because it looks cool.

Here's a more relatable video from the other side. A lot of the times, it's not developers being cocky. It's knowing the ask is unreasonable given that you actually understand the product.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg" data-time="

---
If you're going through hell, keep going.
-Winston Churchill
... Copied to Clipboard!
YOUHAVENOHOPE
05/22/18 8:42:09 AM
#27:


he's already addressed that devs clearly feel this stuff is beneath them and their grand intelligence

good job reiterating that point
---
... Copied to Clipboard!
Squall28
05/22/18 8:48:04 AM
#28:


pinky0926 posted...
Rika_Furude posted...
pinky0926 posted...
it's always users acting like brainless monkeys.

Not just users. Salesmen and management as well. And then the finance department never approves nescessary purchases until its too late


So everyone is necessarily wrong, except the developer

spot the developer lel


The person who developed the product knows most about it?


---
If you're going through hell, keep going.
-Winston Churchill
... Copied to Clipboard!
AlisLandale
05/22/18 8:51:30 AM
#29:


Rika_Furude posted...
maybe if clients wernt so stupid and actually took the advice of the people with skills this conversation wouldnt need to happen

"client wants windows xp rolled out to 2000 users"
"its 2018 windows xp is a massive security risk and none of our software works on it anymore"
"make it happen"

ugh


Youre basically setting up your own job security. Be thankful..:p
---
Sigs are for losers
... Copied to Clipboard!
Parappa09
05/22/18 9:00:00 AM
#30:


... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1
05/22/18 9:03:45 AM
#31:


pinky0926 posted...
EnragedSlith posted...
Sounds like your devs are being treated like coffee boys and their input isnt being respected. What your dev realizes is that the shit is going to roll back to him when hes working nights to fix the thing that shouldve been rectified in the first place. He probably, possibly incorrectly, assumes you didnt do your job and are passing the buck onto his team.

That is sort of his job, though.


That is one possible scenario. The other is that the dev fancies himself the arbiter of good decision making and kind of just enjoys being contentious for the sake of it.

Both scenarios seem to happen frequently

The issue is often exacerbated the larger a company grows. What many corporate suits don't understand is that management and sales people benefit greatly from understanding development. In small companies, it's natural that people wear many different hats and this interaction often goes more smoothly, but when there is this big disconnect, these teeth pulling situations will get worse and worse. And that's before even considering the mess that outsourcing and off-shoring introduce to the equation.
---
Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two.
... Copied to Clipboard!
Evil_Evil_Evil_
05/22/18 9:04:38 AM
#32:


if business analysts and product owners had technical experience then these sorts of scenarios would never happen because they will stop poor business decisions before they reach the devs.
... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926
05/22/18 9:11:31 AM
#33:


Squall28 posted...
More than likely it's because the client or sales team wants something that's not feasible or will end up biting them or the company in the ass. A better analogy would be if the client wants a hole at the bottom of their cup because it looks cool.

Here's a more relatable video from the other side. A lot of the times, it's not developers being cocky. It's knowing the ask is unreasonable given that you actually understand the product.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg" data-time="


Which genuinely does happen (and I've always loved that video) but I got to laugh at these defensive arguments some others are making like developers are infallible and not capable of grand obtuseness

Sometimes the tea is a genuinely good idea and it's just a case of the developer throwing their weight around with supreme male cockiness.

Like when the developer just doesn't personally doesn't like the solution and has made no effort to understand the client's needs. You know, like people who tell you carte blanche that Apple products suck and anyone who uses them is an idiot, and you just know they've never really tried to understand why so many people prefer them to Android no matter how many hardware specs you throw into the fray. Those types.

Parappa09 posted...
whats your job pinky?


Account/project manager for a sme software company. So I tend to get stuck in the middle.
---
CE's Resident Scotsman.
https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV
... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926
05/22/18 9:16:09 AM
#34:


Squall28 posted...
The person who developed the product knows most about it?



They haven't developed anything yet in this scenario.

Again, we're not talking about feedback like "We need to consider that the client will likely burn their mouth", or "this may be too caffeine heavy for their daily intake". We're talking more like "I don't want to do it because I prefer mountain dew subjectively".
---
CE's Resident Scotsman.
https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV
... Copied to Clipboard!
Solid Sonic
05/22/18 9:17:26 AM
#35:


I feel like I reversed this at my workplace. A dev tried to get me to do something once and I was the one who ended up waffling about it.
---
The only game reviewers who can be trusted are those who publish in Latin or Swahili.
... Copied to Clipboard!
thelovefist
05/22/18 9:20:01 AM
#36:


pinky0926 posted...
Parappa09 posted...
whats your job pinky?


Account/project manager for a sme software company. So I tend to get stuck in the middle.


Do you have a product owner role?
---
N/A
... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926
05/22/18 9:23:16 AM
#37:


thelovefist posted...
pinky0926 posted...
Parappa09 posted...
whats your job pinky?


Account/project manager for a sme software company. So I tend to get stuck in the middle.


Do you have a product owner role?


Nope, the product owner (in this company) is thankfully someone who is not like this and has a genuine desire to help our clients while also being technically minded, so I generally need to turn to her for useful input.
---
CE's Resident Scotsman.
https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV
... Copied to Clipboard!
BJ-blazkowics
05/22/18 9:25:34 AM
#38:


Developers are smug little assholes sometimes. Real life example:

Me: Client is trying to use feature X, but the feature itself is not working
Dev: Why is the client trying to use feature X? (my note: Does it even fucking matter?)
Me: Well, to achieve ABC
Dev: Well there are better ways to do that than to use feature X.
Me: Yeah cool, but they're trying to use feature X and feature X should be working
Dev: But there are better ways to do it than feature X
Me: Like what?
Dev: I am not here to teach them or you how to use the product

What the fuck
... Copied to Clipboard!
justaguy3492
05/22/18 9:35:28 AM
#39:


I like how devs are arguing that it's not the devs fault; when they aren't even part of the team working on this project. You couldn't ask for a better example of why they're difficult to work with than this topic right here.
---
Gt: justaguy3492
... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926
05/22/18 9:38:10 AM
#40:


BJ-blazkowics posted...
Developers are smug little assholes sometimes. Real life example:

Me: Client is trying to use feature X, but the feature itself is not working
Dev: Why is the client trying to use feature X? (my note: Does it even fucking matter?)
Me: Well, to achieve ABC
Dev: Well there are better ways to do that than to use feature X.
Me: Yeah cool, but they're trying to use feature X and feature X should be working
Dev: But there are better ways to do it than feature X
Me: Like what?
Dev: I am not here to teach them or you how to use the product

What the fuck


giving me ptsd mang

justaguy3492 posted...
I like how devs are arguing that it's not the devs fault; when they aren't even part of the team working on this project. You couldn't ask for a better example of why they're difficult to work with than this topic right here.


lmao nail on head
---
CE's Resident Scotsman.
https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV
... Copied to Clipboard!
thelovefist
05/22/18 9:55:12 AM
#41:


pinky0926 posted...
thelovefist posted...
pinky0926 posted...
Parappa09 posted...
whats your job pinky?


Account/project manager for a sme software company. So I tend to get stuck in the middle.


Do you have a product owner role?


Nope, the product owner (in this company) is thankfully someone who is not like this and has a genuine desire to help our clients while also being technically minded, so I generally need to turn to her for useful input.

What does the Product Owner say about this cup of tea feature?
---
N/A
... Copied to Clipboard!
thelovefist
05/22/18 9:55:32 AM
#42:


BJ-blazkowics posted...
Developers are smug little assholes sometimes. Real life example:

Me: Client is trying to use feature X, but the feature itself is not working
Dev: Why is the client trying to use feature X? (my note: Does it even fucking matter?)
Me: Well, to achieve ABC
Dev: Well there are better ways to do that than to use feature X.
Me: Yeah cool, but they're trying to use feature X and feature X should be working
Dev: But there are better ways to do it than feature X
Me: Like what?
Dev: I am not here to teach them or you how to use the product

What the fuck

ROD pls.
---
N/A
... Copied to Clipboard!
DevsBro
05/22/18 9:56:54 AM
#43:


I dunno, I have a hard time with the business people tbh.

Business: Program me an X.
Me: Ok, coming aling well but had a question. Do you want it to be done this way or that way?
*two days pass*
Me: Do you need more information?
*two days pass*
Business: Do I want what being done this way or that way?
Me: The X.
Business: Who asked for an X?
Me: You did.
Business: Oh that. Let me defer to Business 2.
Business 2: What is this for?
*two days pass*
Me: Business, can you please comment?
Business: This is for that report.
Business 2: Ok, let me defer to Business 3.

And this is why you see so much of me during business hours.
---
... Copied to Clipboard!
Rika_Furude
05/22/18 10:00:03 AM
#44:


justaguy3492 posted...
I like how devs are arguing that it's not the devs fault; when they aren't even part of the team working on this project. You couldn't ask for a better example of why they're difficult to work with than this topic right here.

I like how there are literal salesmen (read: shark) itt who think they can just snap their fingers and get the devs to accomplish anything no matter how backwards and stupid and unreasonable it is, and then ignore the devs instructions
---
Posted with GameRaven 3.4
... Copied to Clipboard!
BJ-blazkowics
05/22/18 10:01:38 AM
#45:


DevsBro posted...
I dunno, I have a hard time with the business people tbh.

Business: Program me an X.
Me: Ok, coming aling well but had a question. Do you want it to be done this way or that way?
*two days pass*
Me: Do you need more information?
*two days pass*
Business: Do I want what being done this way or that way?
Me: The X.
Business: Who asked for an X?
Me: You did.
Business: Oh that. Let me defer to Business 2.
Business 2: What is this for?
*two days pass*
Me: Business, can you please comment?
Business: This is for that report.
Business 2: Ok, let me defer to Business 3.

And this is why you see so much of me during business hours.


Yes! and then
Business: "why is this not ready"
... Copied to Clipboard!
EnragedSlith
05/22/18 10:06:00 AM
#46:


justaguy3492 posted...
I like how devs are arguing that it's not the devs fault; when they aren't even part of the team working on this project. You couldn't ask for a better example of why they're difficult to work with than this topic right here.

Yes, devs defending devs in a topic about attacking devs from the perspective of the group that causes them almost as much strife as the client, how quaint.

Dev doesnt feel like his team and interests are being fairly represented, which implies a lack of respect in the current process, which is a management problem. Does he think a better compromise or understanding could be reached if someone else had greater access to the client? Thats what he should be communicating.
---
... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin
05/22/18 10:08:18 AM
#47:


pinky0926 posted...
There's lots of memes on the internet about $users but here's the other side of it.Trying to get developers to do something they feel is beneath their time and extraordinary intelligence is one of the most persistently annoying parts of my day job.


im surprised the devs have that much power over what they build. where i work, that conversation happens between "product staff" (folks who manage/design products) and executive management. by the time projects get down to my team we're basically told "you need to develop this" and we say "ok".

if i think the product is stupid or doesn't have value it doesn't matter ---that decision has been made already. and besides, deciding what we build isn't my job -- building what i'm told to build is, so that's what i do.

source: programmer
---
Playing: Doom (2016) (PC)
(~);} - I suppose it will all make sense when we grow up - {;(~)
... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1
05/22/18 10:09:22 AM
#48:


Another interesting scenario is devs working on projects related to government services. In those cases, requirements usually have their roots in strict legislation, like "we actually have to do it this way or else it's illegal", which often takes a very long time to get into their heads :)
---
Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two.
... Copied to Clipboard!
EnragedSlith
05/22/18 10:10:43 AM
#49:


Giant_Aspirin posted...
pinky0926 posted...
There's lots of memes on the internet about $users but here's the other side of it.Trying to get developers to do something they feel is beneath their time and extraordinary intelligence is one of the most persistently annoying parts of my day job.


im surprised the devs have that much power over what they build. where i work, that conversation happens between "product staff" (folks who manage/design products) and executive management. by the time projects get down to my team we're basically told "you need to develop this" and we say "ok".

if i think the product is stupid or doesn't have value it doesn't matter ---that decision has been made already. and besides, deciding what we build isn't my job -- building what i'm told to build is, so that's what i do.

source: programmer

Depends on the size and scope of the firm
---
... Copied to Clipboard!
DevsBro
05/22/18 10:11:22 AM
#50:


Giant_Aspirin posted...
pinky0926 posted...
There's lots of memes on the internet about $users but here's the other side of it.Trying to get developers to do something they feel is beneath their time and extraordinary intelligence is one of the most persistently annoying parts of my day job.


im surprised the devs have that much power over what they build. where i work, that conversation happens between "product staff" (folks who manage/design products) and executive management. by the time projects get down to my team we're basically told "you need to develop this" and we say "ok".

if i think the product is stupid or doesn't have value it doesn't matter ---that decision has been made already. and besides, deciding what we build isn't my job -- building what i'm told to build is, so that's what i do.

source: programmer

It depends. Some clients are "here is spec you will do as spec says" while others are "so like, I think what would really help is is if we had, like, some kind of, like, computer thing."
---
... Copied to Clipboard!
Topic List
Page List: 1, 2