Current Events > Former colleague and friend who helped hire Jordan Peterson calls him out

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The Great Muta 22 05/26/18 6:46:18 PM #1:	https://www.thestar.com/opinion/2018/05/25/i-was-jordan-petersons-strongest-supporter-now-i-think-hes-dangerous.html Some pretty good excerpts: I thought long and hard before writing about Jordan, and I do not do this lightly. He has one of the most agile and creative minds Ive ever known. He is a powerful orator. He is smart, passionate, engaging and compelling and can be thoughtful and kind. I was once his strongest supporter. That all changed with his rise to celebrity. I am alarmed by his now-questionable relationship to truth, intellectual integrity and common decency, which I had not seen before. His output is voluminous and filled with oversimplifications which obscure or misrepresent complex matters in the service of a message which is difficult to pin down. He can be very persuasive, and toys with facts and with peoples emotions. I believe he is a man with a mission. It is less clear what that mission is. Remarkably, the 50 students always showed up at 9 a.m. and were held in rapt attention for an hour. Jordan was a captivating lecturer electric and eclectic cherry-picking from neuroscience, mythology, psychology, philosophy, the Bible and popular culture. The class loved him. But, as reported by that one astute student, Jordan presented conjecture as statement of fact. I expressed my concern to him about this a number of times, and each time Jordan agreed. He acknowledged the danger of such practices, but then continued to do it again and again, as if he could not control himself. He was a preacher more than a teacher. Jordan has studied and understands authoritarian demagogic leaders. They know how to attract a following. In an interview with Ethan Klein in an H3 Podcast, Jordan describes how such leaders learn to repeat those things which make the crowd roar, and not repeat those things that do not. The crowd roared the first time Jordan opposed the so-called transgender agenda. Perhaps they would roar again, whether it made sense or not. But why transgender in the first place? In that same interview, Jordan cites Carl Jung, who talked about the effectiveness of powerful emotional oratorical skills to tap into the collective unconscious of a people, and into their anger, resentment, fear of chaos and need for order. He talked about how those demagogic leaders led by acting out the dark desires of the mob. If we have a collective unconscious there is a good chance that it would include our primitive assumptions about gender and biology. Transgender people violate those assumptions. There is an historical example of how upset our species gets about gender ambiguity in other species. The female spotted hyena is larger than, and dominant over, the male and has a clitoris so enlarged as to have the external appearance of a penis. In the bestiaries of the Middle Ages they were reviled, described as neither faithful or pagan, brutal thugs, sexual deviants and not to be trusted. Sir Walter Raleigh excluded the hyena from Noahs Ark in his History of the World (written in 1614) because he believed that God had saved only the purely bred. That historical lesson tells us how deeply disturbed many of us might be in response to gender ambiguity in human beings. Transgender people appear early in human history but in these socially progressive times, which worry Jordan so much, they have become more visible. Consciously or not, Jordan may have understood that transgender people tap into societys collective unconscious and would become a lightning rod for attention loaded with anger and resentment. And it did. --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXezjbuzh14 <cite>The Great Muta 22 posted [p:902033359] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote>https://www.thestar.com/opinion/2018/05/25/i-was-jordan-petersons-strongest-supporter-now-i-think-hes-dangerous.html Some pretty good excerpts: <quote>I thought long and hard before writing about Jordan, and I do not do this lightly. He has one of the most agile and creative minds Ive ever known. He is a powerful orator. He is smart, passionate, engaging and compelling and can be thoughtful and kind. I was once his strongest supporter. That all changed with his rise to celebrity. I am alarmed by his now-questionable relationship to truth, intellectual integrity and common decency, which I had not seen before. His output is voluminous and filled with oversimplifications which obscure or misrepresent complex matters in the service of a message which is difficult to pin down. He can be very persuasive, and toys with facts and with peoples emotions. I believe he is a man with a mission. It is less clear what that mission is.</quote> <quote>Remarkably, the 50 students always showed up at 9 a.m. and were held in rapt attention for an hour. Jordan was a captivating lecturer electric and eclectic cherry-picking from neuroscience, mythology, psychology, philosophy, the Bible and popular culture. The class loved him. But, as reported by that one astute student, Jordan presented conjecture as statement of fact. I expressed my concern to him about this a number of times, and each time Jordan agreed. He acknowledged the danger of such practices, but then continued to do it again and again, as if he could not control himself. He was a preacher more than a teacher.</quote> <quote>Jordan has studied and understands authoritarian demagogic leaders. They know how to attract a following. In an interview with Ethan Klein in an H3 Podcast, Jordan describes how such leaders learn to repeat those things which make the crowd roar, and not repeat those things that do not. The crowd roared the first time Jordan opposed the so-called transgender agenda. Perhaps they would roar again, whether it made sense or not. But why transgender in the first place? In that same interview, Jordan cites Carl Jung, who talked about the effectiveness of powerful emotional oratorical skills to tap into the collective unconscious of a people, and into their anger, resentment, fear of chaos and need for order. He talked about how those demagogic leaders led by acting out the dark desires of the mob. If we have a collective unconscious there is a good chance that it would include our primitive assumptions about gender and biology. Transgender people violate those assumptions. There is an historical example of how upset our species gets about gender ambiguity in other species. The female spotted hyena is larger than, and dominant over, the male and has a clitoris so enlarged as to have the external appearance of a penis. In the bestiaries of the Middle Ages they were reviled, described as neither faithful or pagan, brutal thugs, sexual deviants and not to be trusted. Sir Walter Raleigh excluded the hyena from Noahs Ark in his History of the World (written in 1614) because he believed that God had saved only the purely bred. That historical lesson tells us how deeply disturbed many of us might be in response to gender ambiguity in human beings. Transgender people appear early in human history but in these socially progressive times, which worry Jordan so much, they have become more visible. Consciously or not, Jordan may have understood that transgender people tap into societys collective unconscious and would become a lightning rod for attention loaded with anger and resentment. And it did.</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
The Great Muta 22 05/26/18 6:52:31 PM #2:	He has done disservice to the professoriate. He cheapens the intellectual life with self-serving misrepresentations of important ideas and scientific findings. He has also done disservice to the institutions which have supported him. He plays to victimhood but also plays the victim. When he caused a stir objecting to gender neutral pronouns, he thanked his YouTube followers who had supported his work financially, claiming he might need that money because he could lose his job. That resulted in a significant increase in monthly donations. There was no reason to think he would lose his job. He was on a sabbatical, and had not even been in the classroom. The university sent him a letter asking him to stop what he was doing because he was creating an environment which would make teaching difficult, but there was no intimation that he would be fired. I saw that letter. Jordan may have, however, welcomed being fired, which would have made him a martyr in the battle for free speech. He certainly presented himself as prepared to do that. A true warrior, of whatever. This past March, Pankaj Mishra wrote in The New York Review of Books an informed and thoughtful critique of 12 Rules for Life, provocatively titled Jordan Peterson and Fascist Mysticism. Jordans immediate response was a flurry of angry, abusive, self-righteous tweets, some in response to Mishras questioning Jordans induction into an Indigenous tribe by referring to it as a claim. Jordan called Mishra a sanctimonious prick, an arrogant, racist son of a bitch, a peddler of nasty, underhanded innuendo, said fuck you and expressed a desire to slap him. (As it turns out Jordan had not been inducted into that tribe, and his publisher removed references to the claim in promotional materials as reported in The Walrus by Robert Jago in The Story Behind Jordan Petersons Indigenous Identity.) Shortly after Jordans rise to notoriety back in 2016, I emailed him to express my upset with his dishonesty and lack of intellectual and social integrity. He called in a conciliatory voice the next morning. I was reiterating my disappointment and upset when he interrupted me, saying more or less the following: You dont understand. I am willing to lose everything, my home, my job etc., because I believe in this. And then he said, with the intensity he is now famous for, Bernie. Tammy had a dream, and sometimes her dreams are prophetic. She dreamed that it was five minutes to midnight. That was our last conversation. He was playing out the ideas that appeared in his first book. The social order is coming apart. We are on the edge of chaos. He is the prophet, and he would be the martyr. Jordan would be our saviour. I think he believes that. Currently, Jordan is the darling of the alt-right. He says he is not one of them, but has accepted their affection with relish. Andrew Scheer, the leader of the federal Conservative party, has declined any further appearances on The Rebel, but Jordan continues to appear. Jordan is not part of the alt-right. He fits no mould. But he should be concerned about what the dark desires of the alt-right might be. He could be, perhaps unwittingly, activating the dark desires of that mob. --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXezjbuzh14 <cite>The Great Muta 22 posted [p:902033610] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><quote>He has done disservice to the professoriate. He cheapens the intellectual life with self-serving misrepresentations of important ideas and scientific findings. He has also done disservice to the institutions which have supported him. He plays to victimhood but also plays the victim. When he caused a stir objecting to gender neutral pronouns, he thanked his YouTube followers who had supported his work financially, claiming he might need that money because he could lose his job. That resulted in a significant increase in monthly donations. There was no reason to think he would lose his job. He was on a sabbatical, and had not even been in the classroom. The university sent him a letter asking him to stop what he was doing because he was creating an environment which would make teaching difficult, but there was no intimation that he would be fired. I saw that letter. Jordan may have, however, welcomed being fired, which would have made him a martyr in the battle for free speech. He certainly presented himself as prepared to do that. A true warrior, of whatever.</quote> <quote>This past March, Pankaj Mishra wrote in The New York Review of Books an informed and thoughtful critique of 12 Rules for Life, provocatively titled Jordan Peterson and Fascist Mysticism. Jordans immediate response was a flurry of angry, abusive, self-righteous tweets, some in response to Mishras questioning Jordans induction into an Indigenous tribe by referring to it as a claim. Jordan called Mishra a sanctimonious prick, an arrogant, racist son of a bitch, a peddler of nasty, underhanded innuendo, said fuck you and expressed a desire to slap him. (As it turns out Jordan had not been inducted into that tribe, and his publisher removed references to the claim in promotional materials as reported in The Walrus by Robert Jago in The Story Behind Jordan Petersons Indigenous Identity.)</quote> <quote>Shortly after Jordans rise to notoriety back in 2016, I emailed him to express my upset with his dishonesty and lack of intellectual and social integrity. He called in a conciliatory voice the next morning. I was reiterating my disappointment and upset when he interrupted me, saying more or less the following: You dont understand. I am willing to lose everything, my home, my job etc., because I believe in this. And then he said, with the intensity he is now famous for, Bernie. Tammy had a dream, and sometimes her dreams are prophetic. She dreamed that it was five minutes to midnight. That was our last conversation. He was playing out the ideas that appeared in his first book. The social order is coming apart. We are on the edge of chaos. He is the prophet, and he would be the martyr. Jordan would be our saviour. I think he believes that.</quote> <quote>Currently, Jordan is the darling of the alt-right. He says he is not one of them, but has accepted their affection with relish. Andrew Scheer, the leader of the federal Conservative party, has declined any further appearances on The Rebel, but Jordan continues to appear. Jordan is not part of the alt-right. He fits no mould. But he should be concerned about what the dark desires of the alt-right might be. He could be, perhaps unwittingly, activating the dark desires of that mob.</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Axiom 05/26/18 6:57:15 PM #3:	nb4 Peterson cultists tell you to watch or read about him and then claim you just don't get what he's saying <cite>Axiom posted [p:902033836] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote>nb4 Peterson cultists tell you to watch or read about him and then claim you just don't get what he's saying</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
The Great Muta 22 05/26/18 6:59:48 PM #4:	Axiom posted... nb4 Peterson cultists tell you to watch or read about him and then claim you just don't get what he's saying I know it's likely to fall on deaf ears and dismissed entirely, but I feel that someone who was involved with the hiring of and considering him a friend for year, including moving him into his own house when JP was in need, perhaps it will resonate with someone. Nah, that's asking too much EDIT: I didn't even include the shit about Peterson wanting to start his own church or his political aspirations. The man is bordering on a legit demagogue, and not taken nearly with the same level of questioning that he deserves. --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXezjbuzh14 <cite>The Great Muta 22 posted [p:902033952] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>Axiom posted...</cite> <quote>nb4 Peterson cultists tell you to watch or read about him and then claim you just don't get what he's saying</quote> I know it's likely to fall on deaf ears and dismissed entirely, but I feel that someone who was involved with the hiring of and considering him a friend for year, including moving him into his own house when JP was in need, perhaps it will resonate with someone. Nah, that's asking too much EDIT: I didn't even include the shit about Peterson wanting to start his own church or his political aspirations. The man is bordering on a legit demagogue, and not taken nearly with the same level of questioning that he deserves.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Polycosm 05/26/18 7:02:31 PM #5:	I'm not sure what to make of this. It's pages and pages worth of character assassination, in the sense that it's strictly personal and attempts to psychoanalyze Peterson and his motives. Still, I don't doubt the authenticity of the authors feelings. If the author is correct about Peterson's political aspirations and Peterson eventually does run for some kind of office in Canada, then I suppose this stuff is relevant insofar as his motives may help us predict what kind of decisions he would make if he were trusted with real power. But as long as he's just a debater/lecturer/orator, the only thing that really matters are his ideas and arguments. --- BKSheikah owned me so thoroughly in the 2017 guru contest, I'd swear he used the Lens of Truth to pick his bracket. (thengamer.com/guru) <cite>Polycosm posted [p:902034056] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote>I'm not sure what to make of this. It's pages and pages worth of character assassination, in the sense that it's strictly personal and attempts to psychoanalyze Peterson and his motives. Still, I don't doubt the authenticity of the authors feelings. If the author is correct about Peterson's political aspirations and Peterson eventually does run for some kind of office in Canada, then I suppose this stuff is relevant insofar as his motives may help us predict what kind of decisions he would make if he were trusted with real power. But as long as he's just a debater/lecturer/orator, the only thing that really matters are his ideas and arguments.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel 05/26/18 7:02:35 PM #6:	if people are not turned away by actual footage of Jordan Peterson addressing The Jewish Question while citing Race Science and IQ as though they're legitimate, they will not be turned away by anything --- peanut butter and dick <cite>averagejoel posted [p:902034058] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote>if people are not turned away by actual footage of Jordan Peterson addressing The Jewish Question while citing Race Science and IQ as though they're legitimate, they will not be turned away by anything</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ultimate reaver 05/26/18 7:03:36 PM #8:	averagejoel posted... if people are not turned away by actual footage of Jordan Peterson addressing The Jewish Question while citing Race Science and IQ as though they're legitimate, they will not be turned away by anything sadly. i've pretty much stopped trying. people think they've finally got a smart dude speaking for them and nothing will dissuade them --- butts <cite>ultimate reaver posted [p:902034111] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>averagejoel posted...</cite> <quote>if people are not turned away by actual footage of Jordan Peterson addressing The Jewish Question while citing Race Science and IQ as though they're legitimate, they will not be turned away by anything</quote> sadly. i've pretty much stopped trying. people think they've finally got a smart dude speaking for them and nothing will dissuade them</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Omega Hunter 05/26/18 7:08:46 PM #9:	Sounds like this guy has a personal bone to pick. I have listened to dozens of hours of JPs lectures and speeches and he simply makes sense to me. I haven't been brainwashed I simply agree with the man. Why are so many people afraid of that? --- Living is naturally hell, you have to work to put a smile on. http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/7_ugmpjq.gif <cite>Omega Hunter posted [p:902034345] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote>Sounds like this guy has a personal bone to pick. I have listened to dozens of hours of JPs lectures and speeches and he simply makes sense to me. I haven't been brainwashed I simply agree with the man. Why are so many people afraid of that?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
The Great Muta 22 05/26/18 7:08:56 PM #10:	ultimate reaver posted... averagejoel posted... if people are not turned away by actual footage of Jordan Peterson addressing The Jewish Question while citing Race Science and IQ as though they're legitimate, they will not be turned away by anything sadly. i've pretty much stopped trying. people think they've finally got a smart dude speaking for them and nothing will dissuade them I can understand that entirely and can't blame you at all, but I'm not going to stop trying. See, unlike say, Trump who taps into the same type of fear mongering, Peterson is actually a very smart dude who know's exactly what he is doing and purposely fanning the flames. It's scary and needs to be called out for who he is and what he is doing. --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXezjbuzh14 <cite>The Great Muta 22 posted [p:902034352] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>ultimate reaver posted...</cite> <quote><cite>averagejoel posted...</cite> <quote>if people are not turned away by actual footage of Jordan Peterson addressing The Jewish Question while citing Race Science and IQ as though they're legitimate, they will not be turned away by anything</quote> sadly. i've pretty much stopped trying. people think they've finally got a smart dude speaking for them and nothing will dissuade them</quote> I can understand that entirely and can't blame you at all, but I'm not going to stop trying. See, unlike say, Trump who taps into the same type of fear mongering, Peterson is actually a very smart dude who know's exactly what he is doing and purposely fanning the flames. It's scary and needs to be called out for who he is and what he is doing.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
The Great Muta 22 05/26/18 7:10:27 PM #11:	Omega Hunter posted... Sounds like this guy has a personal bone to pick. I have listened to dozens of hours of JPs lectures and speeches and he simply makes sense to me. I haven't been brainwashed I simply agree with the man. Why are so many people afraid of that? No one who is brainwashed thinks they are. Not claiming you are, but that's not really saying anything. --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXezjbuzh14 <cite>The Great Muta 22 posted [p:902034425] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>Omega Hunter posted...</cite> <quote>Sounds like this guy has a personal bone to pick. I have listened to dozens of hours of JPs lectures and speeches and he simply makes sense to me. I haven't been brainwashed I simply agree with the man. Why are so many people afraid of that?</quote> No one who is brainwashed thinks they are. Not claiming you are, but that's not really saying anything.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BrapEnthusiast 05/26/18 7:12:09 PM #12:	you should check out that recent Munk debate between Peterson and Stephen Fry on one side and Michael Eric Dyson and Michelle Goldberg on the other. it was one side arguing for political correctness and the other against it. Fry and Peterson wrecked the other team. very entertaining watch --- it's party time excellent <cite>BrapEnthusiast posted [p:902034501] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote>you should check out that recent Munk debate between Peterson and Stephen Fry on one side and Michael Eric Dyson and Michelle Goldberg on the other. it was one side arguing for political correctness and the other against it. Fry and Peterson wrecked the other team. very entertaining watch</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Omega Hunter 05/26/18 7:12:24 PM #13:	averagejoel posted... if people are not turned away by actual footage of Jordan Peterson addressing The Jewish Question while citing Race Science and IQ as though they're legitimate, they will not be turned away by anything Everyone says stupid things from time to time. We elected a president that said grab am by the pussy. Most rational people can look past a few off statements. If someone today asks him a straightforward race and iq or Jewish question and he answered in a way I didn't like then I would reconsider. However so far every single time someone has told me he said something crazy I look into it and it was taken completely out of context. --- Living is naturally hell, you have to work to put a smile on. http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/7_ugmpjq.gif <cite>Omega Hunter posted [p:902034511] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>averagejoel posted...</cite> <quote>if people are not turned away by actual footage of Jordan Peterson addressing The Jewish Question while citing Race Science and IQ as though they're legitimate, they will not be turned away by anything</quote> Everyone says stupid things from time to time. We elected a president that said grab am by the pussy. Most rational people can look past a few off statements. If someone today asks him a straightforward race and iq or Jewish question and he answered in a way I didn't like then I would reconsider. However so far every single time someone has told me he said something crazy I look into it and it was taken completely out of context.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
deupd_u 05/26/18 7:17:40 PM #14:	The Great Muta 22 posted... But why transgender in the first place? BECAUSE IT WAS BECOMING COMPELLED SPEECH BY LAW, AT THE TIME. JESUS. I thought we got past that part 2 years ago. Also, I don't really see this guy saying anything. He doesn't seem to have any point, at all. --- Snipers don't shoot at paper, they shoot watermelons. https://imgur.com/jo511lG <cite>deupd_u posted [p:902034766] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>The Great Muta 22 posted...</cite> <quote>But why transgender in the first place?</quote> BECAUSE IT WAS BECOMING COMPELLED SPEECH BY LAW, AT THE TIME. JESUS. I thought we got past that part 2 years ago. Also, I don't really see this guy saying anything. He doesn't seem to have any point, at all.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Shadowplay 05/26/18 7:20:54 PM #15:	The Great Muta 22 posted... There is an historical example of how upset our species gets about gender ambiguity in other species. The female spotted hyena is larger than, and dominant over, the male and has a clitoris so enlarged as to have the external appearance of a penis. In the bestiaries of the Middle Ages they were reviled, described as neither faithful or pagan, brutal thugs, sexual deviants and not to be trusted. Sir Walter Raleigh excluded the hyena from Noahs Ark in his History of the World (written in 1614) because he believed that God had saved only the purely bred. That historical lesson tells us how deeply disturbed many of us might be in response to gender ambiguity in human beings. This is an oversimplification since the striped hyena was also mistrusted and shows very little difference between the sexes. Really, there are some valid points in that article, but it fucks up by implying that he's attacking trans people when he has pretty consistently stated that he's against the 50 genders non-sense and has no problem referring to trans people as he or she. --- I make a topic in Final Fantasy 12 to ask if Tifa! They said no Tifa. Hardness gone!-gandob <cite>Shadowplay posted [p:902034930] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>The Great Muta 22 posted...</cite> <quote>There is an historical example of how upset our species gets about gender ambiguity in other species. The female spotted hyena is larger than, and dominant over, the male and has a clitoris so enlarged as to have the external appearance of a penis. In the bestiaries of the Middle Ages they were reviled, described as neither faithful or pagan, brutal thugs, sexual deviants and not to be trusted. Sir Walter Raleigh excluded the hyena from Noahs Ark in his History of the World (written in 1614) because he believed that God had saved only the purely bred. That historical lesson tells us how deeply disturbed many of us might be in response to gender ambiguity in human beings. </quote> This is an oversimplification since the striped hyena was also mistrusted and shows very little difference between the sexes. Really, there are some valid points in that article, but it fucks up by implying that he's attacking trans people when he has pretty consistently stated that he's against the 50 genders non-sense and has no problem referring to trans people as he or she.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel 05/26/18 7:21:28 PM #16:	deupd_u posted... The Great Muta 22 posted... But why transgender in the first place? BECAUSE IT WAS BECOMING COMPELLED SPEECH BY LAW, AT THE TIME. JESUS. I thought we got past that part 2 years ago. Also, I don't really see this guy saying anything. He doesn't seem to have any point, at all. it was not, at any point, becoming compelled speech. try looking up the actual bill before running your mouth about this --- peanut butter and dick <cite>averagejoel posted [p:902034967] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>deupd_u posted...</cite> <quote><cite>The Great Muta 22 posted...</cite> <quote>But why transgender in the first place?</quote> BECAUSE IT WAS BECOMING COMPELLED SPEECH BY LAW, AT THE TIME. JESUS. I thought we got past that part 2 years ago. Also, I don't really see this guy saying anything. He doesn't seem to have any point, at all.</quote> it was not, at any point, becoming compelled speech. try looking up the actual bill before running your mouth about this</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Polycosm 05/26/18 7:27:44 PM #17:	averagejoel posted... if people are not turned away by actual footage of Jordan Peterson addressing The Jewish Question while citing Race Science and IQ as though they're legitimate, they will not be turned away by anything I haven't seen that footage and I'm not taking a stand on what Peterson said, but it's incorrect to denounce racial IQ data as illegitimate across the board. While it may be true that no good ever comes of discussing race and IQ on CE, that the data can't be used to guide positive social policy, that the history of this research is fraught with evil motives, etc... it's a mistake to go full-on anti-science and deny the validity of work such as Murray's The Bell Curve. Here's a longer discussion on the subject with Sam Harris for anyone with a lot of time and interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1lEPQYQk8s" data-time=" --- BKSheikah owned me so thoroughly in the 2017 guru contest, I'd swear he used the Lens of Truth to pick his bracket. (thengamer.com/guru) <cite>Polycosm posted [p:902035246] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>averagejoel posted...</cite> <quote>if people are not turned away by actual footage of Jordan Peterson addressing The Jewish Question while citing Race Science and IQ as though they're legitimate, they will not be turned away by anything</quote> I haven't seen that footage and I'm not taking a stand on what Peterson said, but it's incorrect to denounce racial IQ data as illegitimate across the board. While it may be true that no good ever comes of discussing race and IQ on CE, that the data can't be used to guide positive social policy, that the history of this research is fraught with evil motives, etc... it's a mistake to go full-on anti-science and deny the validity of work such as Murray's The Bell Curve. Here's a longer discussion on the subject with Sam Harris for anyone with a lot of time and interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1lEPQYQk8s" data-time="</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
COVxy 05/26/18 7:32:51 PM #18:	Polycosm posted... What do you think IQ measures? --- =E[(x-E[x])(y-E[y])] <cite>COVxy posted [p:902035469] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>Polycosm posted...</cite> What do you think IQ measures?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Antifar 05/26/18 7:32:51 PM #19:	Polycosm posted... it's a mistake to go full-on anti-science and deny the validity of work such as Murray's The Bell Curve. The Bell Curve is full of bad science. http://www.slate.com/articles/briefing/articles/1997/01/the_bell_curve_flattened.html it wasn't until a full year or more after The Bell Curve was published that the leading experts on its subject had a chance to go through the underlying data with care. Therefore, as time went on, the knowledgeability of the Bell Curve discussion grew, but the attention paid to that discussion inevitably shrank. The debate on publication day was conducted in the mass media by people with no independent ability to assess the book. Over the next few months, intellectuals took some pretty good shots at it in smaller publications like the New Republic and the New York Review of Books. It wasn't until late 1995 that the most damaging criticism of The Bell Curve began to appear, in tiny academic journals. What follows is a brief summary of that last body of work. The Bell Curve, it turns out, is full of mistakes ranging from sloppy reasoning to mis-citations of sources to outright mathematical errors. Unsurprisingly, all the mistakes are in the direction of supporting the authors' thesis. --- kin to all that throbs <cite>Antifar posted [p:902035470] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>Polycosm posted...</cite> <quote>it's a mistake to go full-on anti-science and deny the validity of work such as Murray's The Bell Curve. </quote> The Bell Curve is full of bad science. http://www.slate.com/articles/briefing/articles/1997/01/the_bell_curve_flattened.html <quote>it wasn't until a full year or more after The Bell Curve was published that the leading experts on its subject had a chance to go through the underlying data with care. Therefore, as time went on, the knowledgeability of the Bell Curve discussion grew, but the attention paid to that discussion inevitably shrank. The debate on publication day was conducted in the mass media by people with no independent ability to assess the book. Over the next few months, intellectuals took some pretty good shots at it in smaller publications like the New Republic and the New York Review of Books. It wasn't until late 1995 that the most damaging criticism of The Bell Curve began to appear, in tiny academic journals. What follows is a brief summary of that last body of work. The Bell Curve, it turns out, is full of mistakes ranging from sloppy reasoning to mis-citations of sources to outright mathematical errors. Unsurprisingly, all the mistakes are in the direction of supporting the authors' thesis.</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
EvoTech 05/26/18 7:34:02 PM #20:	Yawn --- Now Playing: Monster Hunter World / FFXII Remaster / FFXIV: Stormblood <cite>EvoTech posted [p:902035513] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote>Yawn</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Paper_Okami 05/26/18 7:35:19 PM #21:	Tag --- "Conceit, arrogance and egotism are the essentials of patriotism"- Emma Goldman "Wimmy Wham Wham Wozzle!" -Slurms MacKenzie <cite>Paper_Okami posted [p:902035565] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote>Tag</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Polycosm 05/26/18 7:35:28 PM #22:	averagejoel posted... it was not, at any point, becoming compelled speech. try looking up the actual bill before running your mouth about this The bill classifies the intentional misuse of gender pronouns as a form of hate speech, which is punishable under Canadian law. This would make certain speech at least partially, effectively compelled. --- BKSheikah owned me so thoroughly in the 2017 guru contest, I'd swear he used the Lens of Truth to pick his bracket. (thengamer.com/guru) <cite>Polycosm posted [p:902035575] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>averagejoel posted...</cite> <quote>it was not, at any point, becoming compelled speech. try looking up the actual bill before running your mouth about this</quote> The bill classifies the intentional misuse of gender pronouns as a form of hate speech, which is punishable under Canadian law. This would make certain speech at least partially, effectively compelled.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel 05/26/18 7:35:50 PM #23:	Polycosm posted... I haven't seen that footage and I'm not taking a stand on what Peterson said, but it's incorrect to denounce racial IQ data as illegitimate across the board. While it may be true that no good ever comes of discussing race and IQ on CE, that the data can't be used to guide positive social policy, that the history of this research is fraught with evil motives, etc... it's a mistake to go full-on anti-science and deny the validity of work such as Murray's The Bell Curve. denying the validity of that book is not anti-science. it's been pretty thoroughly discredited numerous times --- peanut butter and dick <cite>averagejoel posted [p:902035591] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>Polycosm posted...</cite> <quote>I haven't seen that footage and I'm not taking a stand on what Peterson said, but it's incorrect to denounce racial IQ data as illegitimate across the board. While it may be true that no good ever comes of discussing race and IQ on CE, that the data can't be used to guide positive social policy, that the history of this research is fraught with evil motives, etc... it's a mistake to go full-on anti-science and deny the validity of work such as Murray's The Bell Curve.</quote> denying the validity of that book is not anti-science. it's been pretty thoroughly discredited numerous times</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel 05/26/18 7:36:44 PM #24:	Polycosm posted... averagejoel posted... it was not, at any point, becoming compelled speech. try looking up the actual bill before running your mouth about this The bill classifies the intentional misuse of gender pronouns as a form of hate speech, which is punishable under Canadian law. This would make certain speech at least partially, effectively compelled. actually, the bill does not mention pronouns at all. --- peanut butter and dick <cite>averagejoel posted [p:902035636] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>Polycosm posted...</cite> <quote><cite>averagejoel posted...</cite> <quote>it was not, at any point, becoming compelled speech. try looking up the actual bill before running your mouth about this</quote> The bill classifies the intentional misuse of gender pronouns as a form of hate speech, which is punishable under Canadian law. This would make certain speech at least partially, effectively compelled.</quote> actually, the bill does not mention pronouns at all.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Polycosm 05/26/18 8:02:06 PM #25:	Antifar posted... http://www.slate.com/articles/briefing/articles/1997/01/the_bell_curve_flattened.html This article is laced with accusations, most of which are unsupported. However, the argument about education not being properly separated from IQ is a cogent one. I don't appreciate having to dig it out of that mess of an article, but I do appreciate you posting it; I hadn't seen this criticism of Murray's work before and it does make me question my position on it. averagejoel posted... actually, the bill does not mention pronouns at all. It doesn't, but this is effectively what the bill does. It's not enough to just read the text of the bill. In order to understand it, you also have to read the section of the Criminal Code it amends, and you have to read up on how that code has been interpreted through case law. Longer answer here: https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/20038/why-is-canadas-bill-c-16-believed-to-be-legislating-pronoun-use --- BKSheikah owned me so thoroughly in the 2017 guru contest, I'd swear he used the Lens of Truth to pick his bracket. (thengamer.com/guru) <cite>Polycosm posted [p:902036772] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote>http://www.slate.com/articles/briefing/articles/1997/01/the_bell_curve_flattened.html</quote> This article is laced with accusations, most of which are unsupported. However, the argument about education not being properly separated from IQ is a cogent one. I don't appreciate having to dig it out of that mess of an article, but I do appreciate you posting it; I hadn't seen this criticism of Murray's work before and it does make me question my position on it. <cite>averagejoel posted...</cite> <quote>actually, the bill does not mention pronouns at all.</quote> It doesn't, but this is effectively what the bill does. It's not enough to just read the text of the bill. In order to understand it, you also have to read the section of the Criminal Code it amends, and you have to read up on how that code has been interpreted through case law. Longer answer here: https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/20038/why-is-canadas-bill-c-16-believed-to-be-legislating-pronoun-use</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel 05/26/18 8:12:10 PM #26:	Polycosm posted... It doesn't, but this is effectively what the bill does. It's not enough to just read the text of the bill. In order to understand it, you also have to read the section of the Criminal Code it amends, and you have to read up on how that code has been interpreted through case law. Longer answer here: https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/20038/why-is-canadas-bill-c-16-believed-to-be-legislating-pronoun-use from your link: There is no factual basis for the claim that incorrect pronoun use will lead to negative consequences. The bill does two things: It adds gender identity or expression as protected classes under the Canadian Human Rights Act It adds gender identity or expression as protected classes to the criminal code, specifically to a section about hate propaganda and to provisions about sentencing hate crimes. Regarding 1., there has to be an actual discriminatory act (such as refusing housing or services), it is not enough to express an opinion or use wrong pronouns. Regarding 2., to be convicted of hate propaganda, one has to actually, intentionally, incite hatred or promote genocide, so it doesn't apply. The Canadian Bar Association agrees with this assessment: https://www.cba.org/News-Media/News/2017/May/CBA-position-on-Bill-C-16 Brenda Cossman - a professor of law - agrees with this assessment: https://torontoist.com/2016/12/are-jordan-petersons-claims-about-bill-c-16-correct/ --- peanut butter and dick <cite>averagejoel posted [p:902037156] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>Polycosm posted...</cite> <quote>It doesn't, but this is effectively what the bill does. It's not enough to just read the text of the bill. In order to understand it, you also have to read the section of the Criminal Code it amends, and you have to read up on how that code has been interpreted through case law. Longer answer here: https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/20038/why-is-canadas-bill-c-16-believed-to-be-legislating-pronoun-use</quote> from your link: There is no factual basis for the claim that incorrect pronoun use will lead to negative consequences. The bill does two things: It adds gender identity or expression as protected classes under the Canadian Human Rights Act It adds gender identity or expression as protected classes to the criminal code, specifically to a section about hate propaganda and to provisions about sentencing hate crimes. Regarding 1., there has to be an actual discriminatory act (such as refusing housing or services), it is not enough to express an opinion or use wrong pronouns. Regarding 2., to be convicted of hate propaganda, one has to actually, intentionally, incite hatred or promote genocide, so it doesn't apply. The Canadian Bar Association agrees with this assessment: https://www.cba.org/News-Media/News/2017/May/CBA-position-on-Bill-C-16 Brenda Cossman - a professor of law - agrees with this assessment: https://torontoist.com/2016/12/are-jordan-petersons-claims-about-bill-c-16-correct/</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Cherrys2000 05/26/18 8:15:05 PM #27:	Wow this secondhand, undocumented information sure is scary <cite>Cherrys2000 posted [p:902037258] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote>Wow this secondhand, undocumented information sure is scary</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Schwarz 05/26/18 8:41:18 PM #28:	BrapEnthusiast posted... you should check out that recent Munk debate between Peterson and Stephen Fry on one side and Michael Eric Dyson and Michelle Goldberg on the other. it was one side arguing for political correctness and the other against it. Fry and Peterson wrecked the other team. very entertaining watch Gah, I watched that. Fry was amazing. Very eloquent and persuasive and genuine. Peterson and Goldberg were adequate. Dyson spent the majority of his time saying 'you can't understand because you're white'. --- I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel. <cite>Schwarz posted [p:902038389] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote><cite>BrapEnthusiast posted...</cite> <quote>you should check out that recent Munk debate between Peterson and Stephen Fry on one side and Michael Eric Dyson and Michelle Goldberg on the other. it was one side arguing for political correctness and the other against it. Fry and Peterson wrecked the other team. very entertaining watch</quote> Gah, I watched that. Fry was amazing. Very eloquent and persuasive and genuine. Peterson and Goldberg were adequate. Dyson spent the majority of his time saying 'you can't understand because you're white'.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LightningAce11 05/26/18 8:42:24 PM #29:	It really does seem like this guy became a huge sellout and is now a mouthpiece for right wingers to rally around. Shame. --- "I'm an atheist too but still believe in hell. That's where you're headed pal." - Mr_Karate_II <cite>LightningAce11 posted [p:902038443] in Former col... [t:76646204]...</cite> <quote>It really does seem like this guy became a huge sellout and is now a mouthpiece for right wingers to rally around. Shame.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > Former colleague and friend who helped hire Jordan Peterson calls him out (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > Former colleague and friend who helped hire Jordan Peterson calls him out